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London is cracking down on knives

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Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
1,192
45
91
No, it's not clear at all and it seems to have nothing to do with any argument I've made in this thread. This is why I suspect you don't understand the discussion.

Keep telling yourself that.. You keep using the imperical evidense as gold.. Which is fine because most in here have data to persuade an open mind to consider the opposition..

A gentleman mentions high suicide rates with guns and if you take them away you don't believe the saying "they will still find a way to commit suicide"

Then another gentleman says look at Japan's high suicide rate and you said.....

Just go back and read what you have posted. Pretty simple..
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
20,048
136
Keep telling yourself that.. You keep using the imperical evidense as gold.. Which is fine because most in here have data to persuade an open mind to consider the opposition..

A gentleman mentions high suicide rates with guns and if you take them away you don't believe the saying "they will still find a way to commit suicide"
Right, because the empirical evidence indicates this is not true. Most people who attempt suicide never do so again. This is a simple fact. If people were really committed to finding a way to commit suicide then after a failed attempt they would have another go at it. Since they do not, this indicates the means used in the attempt matter a great deal as guns are highly effective tools of suicide unlike say, eating a bunch of pills.

Then another gentleman says look at Japan's high suicide rate and you said.....

Just go back and read what you have posted. Pretty simple..
Right, this is why I feel you don't understand the discussion. There is nothing incompatible with Japan having a higher suicide rate than the US with low gun ownership and my point that gun ownership is a risk factor for completed suicide. The question you should ask yourself is not if Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US, it's if you gave everyone in Japan a gun would Japan's suicide rate increase, decrease, or stay the same? (the answer is almost certainly increase)
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,390
2,610
136
Japan has a silly low homicide rate. What makes you believe access to guns will change that?
What makes you believe it won't?

To be clear, I certainly woudln't expect it to lead to an immediate rise, the next day. But over a long period of time, i.e. decades? Are you quite sure the ease of means wouldn't slowly lead to violence becoming deadlier? Or that the chance to 'collect' guns or fetishise them wouldn't create its own lobby, given enough time?

I wouldn't expect it to turn Japan into the US, obviously other factors matter as well, but it would be odd if making something easier to do (kill someone, rather than just hurt them) wouldn't over time lead to it happening more often. And an important benefit of not allowing legal gun ownership here in the UK, as far as I'm concerned, is that it forestalls the rise of a gun-lobby. Once you create that phenomenon it's a lot harder to suppress it.

Indeed, with a low base-rate, it would be all the easier for a few high-body-count incidents to have a noticeable effect. Are you absolutely sure Japan is immune to Columbine-style craziness? Japan is where some total nutters tried to stage a mass nerve-gas attack, after all.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
3,970
146
Oh shit, did I confuse total murders with murder rates? Damn do I feel stupid..... Yea I am not going to take that bet. I think I pwned myself more than you pwned me though...
A retraction? In my P&N?

It's more likely than you think.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
11,428
997
126
This is total codswallop. You _are_ making most of it up. You aren't a Londoner, that's pretty obvious, just an outsider who visited the place for a bit without knowing anything about it. Maybe you believed the shit some clueless middle-class provincials (briefly here between graduating and going back to the home counties to spawn), or some wanna-be 'gangsta' youth who wanted to sound 'street' told you?

There are dimwit kids, there are stabbings, obviously, like any big city, and there's a tiny element of truth in the 'postcode' thing (but it's still exaggerated, gangs don't exist in the nearly-formal, structured way they have done in some US cities) but, really 'vast areas' 'where the population is almost exclusively black'? 'ghettos'? You give yourself away there. You _have_ got to be some white middle-class provincial or foreigner who sees London as a place fully of scary dark-skinned folk and people with funny accents.

Don't speak as if you are an 'expert' on somewhere you clearly don't know at all.
i've landed in brighton the 3rd of january 2005. i've lived there until late 2006 and then moved to church street, in croydon, where i spent nearly 2 years. then between 2007 and december 2010 i've lived in brixton (Lorn court), East Ham (Napier rd) / Plaistow, and tower bridge. I worked for 2 years as a sweeper for Veolia, which brought me to work in croydon, in peckham, in southwark, lambeth, vauxhall, kennington, camberwell, stockwell, clapham, thornton heath, i even cleaned around teh west ham stadium.

I shopped at brixton market. i can name every shop around seven sisters and none of them have white, british owners. go to the whitgift shopping center in croydon and tell me what percentage of peple are white. White people in croydon - the ones who go party at Yates - all come from those four office buildings near the station, but everywhere else it's ALL indians, pakistani, africans, and so on.

i then wisely decided to bail out and went to scotland, which is paradise, compared to london, and right now i'm enjoying being in a cloud of rain and misery in Poole.

i've had a 16yo kid thraten to stab me because i wouldn't give him a cigarette. i've seen the postcode wars. I've seen the riots, the furniture shop that got burned down in croydon was at the corner of church street, the corner of the building i used to live in. i've seen two churches beat the crap out of each other because "my church is better than yours", in the middle of the street, in ffront of the O2 in brixton, right opposite the police station. i've had to take "cv training classes" at A4E in brixton road and seen people who could not write their own name.

i was in london. i wore rockawear and fubu and time is money. out of the people i knew in croydon, six seven were british - two fishmonger guys from the church street fishmonger, two waitresses from Connors in church street, one of my landlords, and a guy i used to sweep with. EVERYONE else was of a non-british ethnicity.

My good friend terry, who lives in N7, is white. Proper, old skool british. Drinks PG Tips. N7 is a bastion of white residents, and even then every shop along the main roads is foreign, be it pakistani, indian, african, caribbean, iranian, or chinese. White residents in these areas still exist, but they are not the people you see in the street. Try going to brixton market, to croydon, to south peckham, to the elephant & castle shopping center, to westfield, and tell me what you see.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
26,987
4,072
126
i've landed in brighton the 3rd of january 2005. i've lived there until late 2006 and then moved to church street, in croydon, where i spent nearly 2 years. then between 2007 and december 2010 i've lived in brixton (Lorn court), East Ham (Napier rd) / Plaistow, and tower bridge. I worked for 2 years as a sweeper for Veolia, which brought me to work in croydon, in peckham, in southwark, lambeth, vauxhall, kennington, camberwell, stockwell, clapham, thornton heath, i even cleaned around teh west ham stadium.

I shopped at brixton market. i can name every shop around seven sisters and none of them have white, british owners. go to the whitgift shopping center in croydon and tell me what percentage of peple are white. White people in croydon - the ones who go party at Yates - all come from those four office buildings near the station, but everywhere else it's ALL indians, pakistani, africans, and so on.

i then wisely decided to bail out and went to scotland, which is paradise, compared to london, and right now i'm enjoying being in a cloud of rain and misery in Poole.

i've had a 16yo kid thraten to stab me because i wouldn't give him a cigarette. i've seen the postcode wars. I've seen the riots, the furniture shop that got burned down in croydon was at the corner of church street, the corner of the building i used to live in. i've seen two churches beat the crap out of each other because "my church is better than yours", in the middle of the street, in ffront of the O2 in brixton, right opposite the police station. i've had to take "cv training classes" at A4E in brixton road and seen people who could not write their own name.

i was in london. i wore rockawear and fubu and time is money. out of the people i knew in croydon, six seven were british - two fishmonger guys from the church street fishmonger, two waitresses from Connors in church street, one of my landlords, and a guy i used to sweep with. EVERYONE else was of a non-british ethnicity.

My good friend terry, who lives in N7, is white. Proper, old skool british. Drinks PG Tips. N7 is a bastion of white residents, and even then every shop along the main roads is foreign, be it pakistani, indian, african, caribbean, iranian, or chinese. White residents in these areas still exist, but they are not the people you see in the street. Try going to brixton market, to croydon, to south peckham, to the elephant & castle shopping center, to westfield, and tell me what you see.
Well looking up the demographics for Croydon around the time you were there and its....

...Drum roll...

Oh.

63% white British, 8.6% black Caribbean, 6.8% Indian...
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
11,428
997
126
according to statistics, if i eat two burgers, and you eat zero burgers, we've both had lunch.

feel free to go there and lok for yourself. fill your eyes and mind with as much empirical evidence as you can. And when you get stabbed, tell yourself "but the data said otherwise".
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
26,987
4,072
126
according to statistics, if i eat two burgers, and you eat zero burgers, we've both had lunch.

feel free to go there and lok for yourself. fill your eyes and mind with as much empirical evidence as you can. And when you get stabbed, tell yourself "but the data said otherwise".
Those are the raw figures of people living in the borough. You can disagree with them if you want but I'm going to go with those rather than the guy who comes down from Scotland and goes "OMG! Theres lots of black people!!".
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,302
1,204
126
Those are the raw figures of people living in the borough. You can disagree with them if you want but I'm going to go with those rather than the guy who comes down from Scotland and goes "OMG! Theres lots of black people!!".
From my earlier post, Britain's white population as a percentage of total dropped 7% in 10 years. That is an extremely large decline in just 10 years.

It is interesting to see how much better Asians (particularly Indians) are doing than white British. In fact, non-British whites are doing substantially better than British whites. The only groups doing worse economically than white British are black, Pakistanis and Bangladeshi.

England’s white population overall fell from 86.8 per cent in 2001 to 79.8 in 2011.

During that ten-year period, the number of white residents in Newham, East London, dropped from 33.6 per cent to 16.7 per cent.

And in Slough, Berks, it fell from 58.3 per cent to 34.5. Leicester, Birmingham and Luton also saw large declines across the decade.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
15,051
3,818
136
We should crack down on plumber's crack as there's far too much of it going around these days.:p
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
430
126
So you say I'm more likely to be shot in VT than NY. I'd say that not true.

Quick and with out looking- what are your lifetime chances of being shot in killed in the US? Mass shootings? Choking of food?

Ballpark it.
I do happen to know that the US isn't necessarily more crime-ridden than other countries. It's just your strange obsession with guns and high levels of gun ownership that has your level of mass murders so high.


 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
6,914
717
126
source for the following info: i have lived 4 years in London, between 2007 and 2010.

London is bad. There are vast areas of London that can only be described as "ghettos", where the population is almost exclusively black and/or otherwise migrants, again almost exclusively from poorer countries. Kids are absolutely awful, just about every kid i spoke with told me "when i grow up i want to be a gangster" or variations of the same. None can speak proper english, they have an absurd view of life, some even want to join al-quaeda because "fight the power". I'm not making this up. The level of ignorance among kids in most London suburbs is shocking, be it Peckham, Croydon, Stratford, Hampsted Heath, it doesn't matter. They are so lost and without guidance that they have "postcode wars", where if you are from one postcode, you automatically hate everyone from the other postcode.

Stabbings are a daily occurrence. Kids of any age will go around carrying knives, because it's what you do in London.
We need to send some liberals over there to straighten those kids out. Conservatives obviously couldn't do it.

Next on the list will be:
axes
swords
hatchets
wooden and metal bats
That's all for now. We wait to see what they come up with next.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
I do happen to know that the US isn't necessarily more crime-ridden than other countries. It's just your strange obsession with guns and high levels of gun ownership that has your level of mass murders so high.


If you lived in the US, what would your chances of being killed by mass murder over the course of your entire lifetime? Just regular old shooting?

Edit- We have less violent crime in spite of guns or perhaps because we have them?
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,193
1,560
136
according to statistics, if i eat two burgers, and you eat zero burgers, we've both had lunch.

feel free to go there and lok for yourself. fill your eyes and mind with as much empirical evidence as you can. And when you get stabbed, tell yourself "but the data said otherwise".
Can the intentional misuse of statistics be even worse than this particular example? Lol
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
26,987
4,072
126
From my earlier post, Britain's white population as a percentage of total dropped 7% in 10 years. That is an extremely large decline in just 10 years.

It is interesting to see how much better Asians (particularly Indians) are doing than white British. In fact, non-British whites are doing substantially better than British whites. The only groups doing worse economically than white British are black, Pakistanis and Bangladeshi.



https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest
It would be interesting to see those figures per head rather than per household tbh.

That said I'm in favour of a more equal share of the UKs wealth across both class and racial lines so the figures look like a good start to me.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
4,209
126
It would be interesting to see those figures per head rather than per household tbh.

That said I'm in favour of a more equal share of the UKs wealth across both class and racial lines so the figures look like a good start to me.
I think you should have to cut down the largest tree in the forest with a herring. :D
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
20,048
136
So you say I'm more likely to be shot in VT than NY. I'd say that not true.
According to Wiki you are indeed more likely to be killed by a gun in Vermont than New York: (the data is a couple years old but such is life) It's important to note this covers gun deaths of all types, including suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

You are less likely to be the victim of gun murder in Vermont than New York though.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,390
2,610
136
i've landed in brighton the 3rd of january 2005. i've lived there until late 2006 and then moved to church street, in croydon, where i spent nearly 2 years. then between 2007 and december 2010 i've lived in brixton (Lorn court), East Ham (Napier rd) / Plaistow, and tower bridge. I worked for 2 years as a sweeper for Veolia, which brought me to work in croydon, in peckham, in southwark, lambeth, vauxhall, kennington, camberwell, stockwell, clapham, thornton heath, i even cleaned around teh west ham stadium.

I shopped at brixton market. i can name every shop around seven sisters and none of them have white, british owners. go to the whitgift shopping center in croydon and tell me what percentage of peple are white. White people in croydon - the ones who go party at Yates - all come from those four office buildings near the station, but everywhere else it's ALL indians, pakistani, africans, and so on.

i then wisely decided to bail out and went to scotland, which is paradise, compared to london, and right now i'm enjoying being in a cloud of rain and misery in Poole.

i've had a 16yo kid thraten to stab me because i wouldn't give him a cigarette. i've seen the postcode wars. I've seen the riots, the furniture shop that got burned down in croydon was at the corner of church street, the corner of the building i used to live in. i've seen two churches beat the crap out of each other because "my church is better than yours", in the middle of the street, in ffront of the O2 in brixton, right opposite the police station. i've had to take "cv training classes" at A4E in brixton road and seen people who could not write their own name.

i was in london. i wore rockawear and fubu and time is money. out of the people i knew in croydon, six seven were british - two fishmonger guys from the church street fishmonger, two waitresses from Connors in church street, one of my landlords, and a guy i used to sweep with. EVERYONE else was of a non-british ethnicity.

My good friend terry, who lives in N7, is white. Proper, old skool british. Drinks PG Tips. N7 is a bastion of white residents, and even then every shop along the main roads is foreign, be it pakistani, indian, african, caribbean, iranian, or chinese. White residents in these areas still exist, but they are not the people you see in the street. Try going to brixton market, to croydon, to south peckham, to the elephant & castle shopping center, to westfield, and tell me what you see.
I've lived in London my entire life (barring a few years in the US). I was born here and went to school here (in Brixton, as it happens - I am familiar with the area, the areas you mention are the places I've spent most of my life in). I'm white I guess (because if you look white you are treated white) though my dad wasn't and half my family aren't. They were, however, born British, because the British grabbed their country. If you are so disturbed by the presence of people with different skin tones or cuisines maybe your ancestors should have thought of that before taking over half the globe? Bit late now, I'm afraid.

Of course there's crime and people with 'issues', there's also pollution and noise, that's true of anywhere where significant numbers of people live, but the world has the population it does,and couldn't support a tiny fraction of it if all of it had the population density of Scotland (and I absolutely envy all that scenery and fresh air and the rest). We can't all have that luxury without some sort of global cull.

Compared to many other cities in the world it's pretty safe. Never been mugged in a lifetime of walking around the city day and night, though, sure, you pass places where murders have happened, and right now - since austerity and the financial crisis, I'd say - things have been worse than usual, but the numbers are still low, per capita.

In fact its the pollution that bothers me much more.

As it happens I know someone from Scotland who never stops going on about how he couldn't go back to Scotland and rolling his eyes at how provincial his Scottish parents are and that every time he goes home they ask him 'how can you stand living in that London?' when in reality he couldn't bear living anywhere else now. I actually think he goes too far and regard him as having the snobbery of an incomer (kind of like the zealotry of the convert), but really, when people from outside visit and start obsessing about skin colour and ethnic origin as if that's _the_ defining characteristic of people (and that seems to happen quite a lot) it just reminds me how racist so much of the UK is, and how sometime it feels like you have to be either an elite metropolitan snob or a resentful racist provincial. The sense that those are the only options now is just too depressing for words.
 

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