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London is cracking down on knives

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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There have been multiple attempts to make this comparison, and any criminologist will tell you it never really works. The Daily Mail in particular laps them all up because it's weirdly determined to believe Britain to be the Worst Country In The World. Presumably on the basis of if you can't definitely be the best, being the worst is still preferable to being unexceptional or mediocre.

Some UN agency has an ongoing attempt to 'normalise' the figures, but it can't really be done, because you can't put back data that wasn't recorded in them in the first place.
Regarding normalization that was my understanding but was quickly told that was not an issue. Perhaps the Daily Mail was responsible for making claims about you vs. us, but as I looked around the web to see how methodologies compared between nations I saw what appeared concern about how the government was found massaging statistics for political gain. In other words, the basis to make judgments was in doubt on the parts of many Brits.

Here's an odd question but I have a reason for asking. Do you know any Millwall jokes and are they uncommon?
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
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Well the caste system does seem a rather barbaric system. Does India still have that? Do you think it is immoral? I can't imagine such a system lasting much longer without the lower castes rising in mass to overthrow the oppressing castes.
Well, I was referring more to the long-standing Hindu/Muslim tensions (other Indian religious conflicts are available). And the caste system is indeed rather hard to defend, and the lower castes have their (well-known and long-standing, to be honest) movements against it. Including outbreaks of what you'd have to call terrorism against higher castes. Plus the mass conversion of many of them to Buddhism (though, sadly, some Buddhists at least, seem to adhere to a caste system themselves, even though it's not _supposed_ to be part of the religion...I guess it's also cultural thing).
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Well The Daily Mail only believes that the UK is the worst country until you suggest letting anyone in from another country. Then its some sort of elysium paradise about to be polluted by filthy foreigners.

In short The Daily Mail has a really fucked up view of reality.
Don't kid yourself, Great Britain has contributed a STAGGERING amount to the development of human civilization. It would be ridiculous to attempt to list its contributions here. I myself thank Britain from the bottom of my heart for the British invasion.... I could not imagine living my life without that music.

Honestly I can't think of a country on the globe that has done more for civilization over the course of history than Great Britain. (Ancient Rome/Egypt/Greece don't count as they aren't around anymore).

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/18036-Greatest-British-contribution-to-the-world
 
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Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
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I still don't understand the question.

Suicide is not a societal factor, it would be the dependent variable in our discussion, not an independent variable as we were discussing the effects of gun ownership on suicide rates.
Ok well in post 89 you mention it is in regard to suicide in Japan. ..
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Phew! I thought that you were going to go after beer then!

Nevar! One of my bucket list items is to visit Wales, but if I do I'm likely to be taken to used as a sacrifice to some spirit by people in black hooded robes to save their sheep from hoof and mouth disease while eating terrible food and speaking in a language without vowels. Well I sat it on TV once.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
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Regarding normalization that was my understanding but was quickly told that was not an issue. Perhaps the Daily Mail was responsible for making claims about you vs. us, but as I looked around the web to see how methodologies compared between nations I saw what appeared concern about how the government was found massaging statistics for political gain. In other words, the basis to make judgments was in doubt on the parts of many Brits.

Here's an odd question but I have a reason for asking. Do you know any Millwall jokes and are they uncommon?
Not really (don't follow football). But there was an amusing bit in 'Cockneys vs Zombies' involving Millwall zombies meeting West Ham zombies.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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Not really (don't follow football). But there was an amusing bit in 'Cockneys vs Zombies' involving Millwall zombies meeting West Ham zombies.

I visit a lot of sites outside of the US and not just for politics or news. Of all the places that seem well known for the wrong reason Millwall stands out and even photographers crack jokes about them.

I was going to drop one here because, well, me and Googling produced zero. None, at least on the first few pages. References to books of Millwall jokes but the online references? Nothing. That seemed odd and I wondered if Google had listed Millwall as verboten.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,750
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Ok well in post 89 you mention it is in regard to suicide in Japan. ..
Yes, I say that Japan has other societal factors that influence its suicide rate that would need to be accounted for. ie: other IVs that need to be controlled for in any model before you can isolate the effects of gun ownership.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Don't kid yourself, Great Britain has contributed a STAGGERING amount to the development of human civilization. It would be ridiculous to attempt to list its contributions here. I myself thank Britain from the bottom of my heart for the British invasion.... I could not imagine living my life without that music.

Honestly I can't think of a country on the globe that has done more for civilization over the course of history than Great Britain.
The indigenous peoples of... most everywhere beg to differ. It's also "harming the planet," these last 200 years of progress, attributable to so-called great britain. The inevitability of progress and the expectation of an ever increasing standard of living, until we run out of stuff to dig out of the ground, or die, is the British legacy. That and stabbing people.
 

Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
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Yes, I say that Japan has other societal factors that influence its suicide rate that would need to be accounted for. ie: other IVs that need to be controlled for in any model before you can isolate the effects of gun ownership.
I see what you're getting at.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
26,987
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Regarding normalization that was my understanding but was quickly told that was not an issue. Perhaps the Daily Mail was responsible for making claims about you vs. us, but as I looked around the web to see how methodologies compared between nations I saw what appeared concern about how the government was found massaging statistics for political gain. In other words, the basis to make judgments was in doubt on the parts of many Brits.
That sounds a bit like "I'm not sure but people are saying..."


Here's an odd question but I have a reason for asking. Do you know any Millwall jokes and are they uncommon?
I honestly haven't heard a Millwall joke since the 90s.
I remember the late 70s and 80s when football violence was big but its not that big an issue now at all. I'd take my kids to a football match now and not worry (apart from hating football and not wanting to encourage them! )
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Nevar! One of my bucket list items is to visit Wales, but if I do I'm likely to be taken to used as a sacrifice to some spirit by people in black hooded robes to save their sheep from hoof and mouth disease while eating terrible food and speaking in a language without vowels. Well I sat it on TV once.
South West Wales is pretty, I'm not making any guarantees that you wont end up in a wicker man though! :eek:
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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That sounds a bit like "I'm not sure but people are saying..."
It should because it is. There are pieces of varying provenance which suggest this is a concern, not all "alt-right" equivalents. Nevertheless I'm raising a point that those in the UK have been concerned about and not saying "I KNOW YOU PEOPLE LIE TO MAKE US LOOK BAD(OR YOU GOOD)"

It raises the possibility that some governments including yours MIGHT be attempting to make themselves look better than they might otherwise. Do your bureaucracies ever try to pressure their underlings to make themselves look good? Do those pressured have an effective mechanism to challenge their superiors without any repercussion? There's a lot of things that happen along those lines. Does that extend to crime statistics? I have no idea. I have to go by what is available.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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South West Wales is pretty, I'm not making any guarantees that you wont end up in a wicker man though! :eek:
My ancestry is mixed. The majority is Welsh then Cherokee and then German. I have two out of three in my favor :D
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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It should because it is. There are pieces of varying provenance which suggest this is a concern, not all "alt-right" equivalents. Nevertheless I'm raising a point that those in the UK have been concerned about and not saying "I KNOW YOU PEOPLE LIE TO MAKE US LOOK BAD(OR YOU GOOD)"

It raises the possibility that some governments including yours MIGHT be attempting to make themselves look better than they might otherwise. Do your bureaucracies ever try to pressure their underlings to make themselves look good? Do those pressured have an effective mechanism to challenge their superiors without any repercussion? There's a lot of things that happen along those lines. Does that extend to crime statistics? I have no idea. I have to go by what is available.
I'm going to assume that every government or department tries to make itself look as good as it can.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I'm going to assume that every government or department tries to make itself look as good as it can.
That's true but in the US its a bit different because our federal government have no interest in making states and cities look good. You'll note the battle between Federal and more local governments can be a mess. There's even an incentive to go the other way. If areas are in trouble you can possibly get some neat stormtrooper gear.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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That's true but in the US its a bit different because our federal government have no interest in making states and cities look good. You'll note the battle between Federal and more local governments can be a mess. There's even an incentive to go the other way. If areas are in trouble you can possibly get some neat stormtrooper gear.
Does the federal government collect a lot of low level crime rates or do they rely on what states report?
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
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Don't kid yourself, Great Britain has contributed a STAGGERING amount to the development of human civilization. It would be ridiculous to attempt to list its contributions here. I myself thank Britain from the bottom of my heart for the British invasion.... I could not imagine living my life without that music.

Honestly I can't think of a country on the globe that has done more for civilization over the course of history than Great Britain. (Ancient Rome/Egypt/Greece don't count as they aren't around anymore).

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/18036-Greatest-British-contribution-to-the-world
The music you cite was American in origin. The British Invasion was British musicians being heavily influenced by American blues and early rockers. They arguably did it better than American groups of that era did, but give credit where it's due. It was in no way original. Same for the other things mentioned in that poll you link to. The English language is an offshoot of Latin, German and nordic languages. It's also only spoken by 5% of the worlds population. Most of the inventions cited were stolen from other parts of the world too. The Brits were expert scavengers. They controlled a lot of the world, they took the best stuff they found, tweaked it a little and passed it off as their own. The Romans, Greeks and Egyptians and for that matter Persians too were the REAL innovators, they were the ones working off a blank slate and making real progress.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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`
Does the federal government collect a lot of low level crime rates or do they rely on what states report?
Both. They take lower level results but the feds do look at raw statistics and use their methods of accounting and calculation. The "official" results withstand scrutiny pretty well. The main concern is statistics on rape, not because of an agenda but because it is over and underreported. False claims of rape happen for a number of reasons and many are unreported because of fear and shame. That is way beyond unfortunate. The result is that reality vs true reported incidents is problematic, but almost certainly incidents of rape are greater than can be known.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
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Again, this is pointless anecdotal evidence. You understand why it’s pointless, right? That you have to control for societal factors?

Can you give me a reason why you keep ignoring actual empirical research into the topic and instead rely on blog posts? Can you give me any reason other than they tell you what you want to believe?

Control for societal factors? That sounds prejudice to me. Are you saying that the culture of a group of people has an effect on behavior? o_O
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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Control for societal factors? That sounds prejudice to me. Are you saying that the culture of a group of people has an effect on behavior? o_O
Yes. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but clearly the answer is yes. Look for example at heart disease and obesity rates in the US vs other similar wealth countries and data on what happens to 1st and 2nd generation immigrants when they get here in terms of those same rates. Culture sets norms for behavior.
 

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