Liberal News (Associated Press) droping term 'illegal immigrants'

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Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
0
This came from about.com and I thought it was enlightening:

When someone resides in the United States without having filled out the requisite immigration paperwork, that person has immigrated to the United States illegally. So why don't I, and folks in the immigrants' rights movement, use the term "illegal immigrant"?

Here are several good reasons:
"Illegal" is uselessly vague. ("You're under arrest." "What's the charge?" "You did something illegal.")
"Illegal immigrant" is dehumanizing. Murderers, rapists, and child molesters are all legal persons who have committed illegal acts; but an otherwise law-abiding resident who doesn't have immigration paperwork is defined as an illegal person. This disparity should offend everyone on its own merits, but there's also a legal, constitutional problem with defining someone as an illegal person.

It's contrary to the Fourteenth Amendment, which affirms that neither the federal government nor state governments may "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." An undocumented immigrant has violated immigration requirements, but is still a legal person under the law, as is anyone under the jurisdiction of the law. The equal protection clause was written to prevent state governments from defining any human being as anything less than a legal person.
On the other hand, "undocumented immigrant" is a very useful phrase. Why? Because it clearly states the offense in question: An undocumented immigrant is someone who resides in a country without proper documentation. The relative legality of this act may vary from country to country, but the nature of the offense (to whatever extent it is an offense) is made clear.

Other terms I generally try to avoid using in place of "undocumented immigrants":
"Illegal aliens." A more pejorative form of "illegal immigrant." The word "alien" can be used to refer to a non-naturalized immigrant, but it also arrives with the context of its dictionary definition: "unfamiliar and disturbing or distasteful."

"Undocumented workers." I use this term often to refer specifically to undocumented workers, especially in a labor context, but it is not a synonym for "undocumented immigrants." When it is used as such, it is often from people who belong to a school of thought that says that undocumented immigrants should be accepted into this country because they are hardworking. The vast majority are (they have no choice; people who cross borders to make less than minimum wage tend to be), but there are undocumented immigrants who do not fall into this category, such as children, the elderly, and the severely disabled, and they, too, need advocates.

"Migrant workers." A migrant worker is simply someone who regularly travels in search of short-term or seasonal work. Many migrant workers are documented (quite a few are natural-born citizens), and many undocumented immigrants are not migrant workers. The migrant workers' movement certainly overlaps with the immigrants' rights movement, but it is not the same movement.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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You should care about both leftist and right-wing agendas.. not only one or the other.

I do care about both the leftist and right wing agenda -- the issue is that most of the media pushes the left wing, so that's the idiotic view that gets the most exposure and gets pushed. Add a mix of idiot celebs, and you get the mess we're in.

We've finally reached the point where the media no longer calls things by their appropriate names, out of simple political correctness to push a left wing agenda. Sickening.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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You have inadvertently reinforced AP's point. Your first link does NOT label people as "illegal drinkers". It refers to their behavior as "illegal drinking". Similarly, your second link refers to "illegal tax avoidance schemes", NOT illegal taxpayers. That's all AP has decided to do, to describe the behavior of being in the U.S. illegally, NOT labeling the people.

The term "illegal drinkers" is also used. Perhaps not as commonly, but that's because the qualifier "underage" is more specific -- it indicates both illegality and the basis for that illegality.

If they really want to cumbersomely write "immigrants in the country illegally" instead of "illegal immigrants", then fine. But that's not what most people are calling for, and I think the real intention here is quite clearly to drop the word "illegal" from the discussion entirely, as Gonad telegraphed.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
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Well, we can see who was right in the other 'What will Progressives next objective be' thread. Already getting the media to re-define illegal aliens (aka immigrant) so as to continue the desensitization of the general public, slowly eroding the impact of the invasion.

So so predictable... (but why not continue with same playbook, since it's worked so well already?)

Chuck
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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An undocumented immigrant has violated immigration requirements

It's a law, not a "requirement". Illegal immigrants violated the law, they should be arrested, fined or jailed and deported. It's simple.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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I'm sure the AP will in the future report bank robbery as "undocumented withdrawals", and rape as "unauthorized intercourse".

It's political correctness run amok, in an effort to push a political agenda by re-framing a discussion through use of language. It has worked to perfection with other issues and will work with this one as well because the public doesn't care enough to reject it.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
This came from about.com and I thought it was enlightening:

When someone resides in the United States without having filled out the requisite immigration paperwork, that person has immigrated to the United States illegally. So why don't I, and folks in the immigrants' rights movement, use the term "illegal immigrant"?

Here are several good reasons:
"Illegal" is uselessly vague. ("You're under arrest." "What's the charge?" "You did something illegal.")
"Illegal immigrant" is dehumanizing. Murderers, rapists, and child molesters are all legal persons who have committed illegal acts; but an otherwise law-abiding resident who doesn't have immigration paperwork is defined as an illegal person. This disparity should offend everyone on its own merits, but there's also a legal, constitutional problem with defining someone as an illegal person.

Are you suggesting that term rapist is not also "dehumanizing". Perhaps as was suggested earlier we should simply call them "unauthorized lovers"?


It's contrary to the Fourteenth Amendment, which affirms that neither the federal government nor state governments may "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." An undocumented immigrant has violated immigration requirements, but is still a legal person under the law, as is anyone under the jurisdiction of the law. The equal protection clause was written to prevent state governments from defining any human being as anything less than a legal person.

Actually I am thinking that based on time frame it was to prevent southern states from abridging the rights of former slaves. But maybe that is just me?

On the other hand, "undocumented immigrant" is a very useful phrase. Why? Because it clearly states the offense in question: An undocumented immigrant is someone who resides in a country without proper documentation. The relative legality of this act may vary from country to country, but the nature of the offense (to whatever extent it is an offense) is made clear.

and illegal immigrant is not equally clear? As in an immigrant who is illegally residing within the country?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
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I do care about both the leftist and right wing agenda -- the issue is that most of the media pushes the left wing, so that's the idiotic view that gets the most exposure and gets pushed. Add a mix of idiot celebs, and you get the mess we're in.

We've finally reached the point where the media no longer calls things by their appropriate names, out of simple political correctness to push a left wing agenda. Sickening.

I'd say there's plenty of anti-PC backlash, particularly in the younger generations. I'm not worried about PC taking over in the long run.

Where do you see a dominance of the right-wing agenda and substantive societal impact and do you think such dominance is a good thing?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
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I wonder if we can stop paying taxes and just have it ignored and called "unauthorized non-payment"? It's precisely the same logic, should be legit according to the AP. Hmm, if I steal a car am I an "unauthorized driver"? Wow, I think the AP is actually winning me over here. Heck, I can go spam this site, breaking every AT rule, and I'll simply be making "unauthorized comments", and hence un-bannable.

This "logic" is brilliant!

Wait...so if someone in NY is carrying a 15 round mag in their just purchased Glock, they're not doing something illegal and thus a criminal, no, they're simply an possessing an "unauthorzied loadout".

The AP: Making anything go since 2013.

Chuck
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
I wonder if we can stop paying taxes and just have it ignored and called "unauthorized non-payment"? It's precisely the same logic, should be legit according to the AP. Hmm, if I steal a car am I an "unauthorized driver"? Wow, I think the AP is actually winning me over here. Heck, I can go spam this site, breaking every AT rule, and I'll simply be making "unauthorized comments", and hence un-bannable.

This "logic" is brilliant!

Wait...so if someone in NY is carrying a 15 round mag in their just purchased Glock, they're not doing something illegal and thus a criminal, no, they're simply an possessing an "unauthorzied loadout".

The AP: Making anything go since 2013.

Chuck

And shooting someone is now "unauthorized bullet placement" ():)
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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With all due respect Charles, you seem to have forgotten what "trolling" means. It is at least as much about presentation as it is about topic. While I certainly agree this is a valid topic for discussion, the presentation in the OP is pure, unmitigated trolling, starting right in the title:
Pejoratives, straw men, blatant partisan attacks. That, my friend, is trolling, and it taints the thread before discussion even begins.

Pushing that excrement aside, the topic itself is interesting. I understand what the AP is doing. As a journalistic organization, they are supposed to maintain the highest standards of non-prejudicial reporting. They've decided, right or wrong, that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is a loaded label that fails to meet those standards. I thought their example re. schizophrenia illustrated their reasoning well. They don't label the person as "schizophrenic". They label the behavior as a "person with schizophrenia". While that is certainly being PC, it is also quite consistent with their overall approach to objective, non-prejudicial reporting. They don't label Bernie Madoff a crook. They say he was convicted of xyz crimes.

Note that the usual cries about censorship are as brain-dead as always. AP is making a decision for their own organization. Nobody else -- not other media, not the public -- is in any way required to follow their lead. Much of the media will, of course, because they recognize and respect AP's expertise in setting such standards. Nonetheless, it is totally voluntary. You, michal, and everyone else upset by their decision are free to continue calling them "illegals".

Real Americans use the most inconsiderate labels they can get away with and anything less is political correctness run amok.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,545
236
106
Do-not-feed-the-troll.png

Nice. It's like saying "Don't you bump this thread, even though I am."

You gotta be at least a lifer to get away with that crap, and even then there will be plenty of people that will not care for your attitude.

Tell you what, you wanna disagree with somebody in here, put up a valid argument, and post it. If not, shut up.

As for the topic at hand, I can't say I am surprised, although I do not agree. They will all be citizens eventually, you'll see (and it won't be of their own effort I assure you).
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
And shooting someone is now "unauthorized bullet placement" ():)

Haha, yes! Chicago doesn't even have crime using this "logic". They simply have "unauthorized killings". Wait...killings...that's too strong a word. It used to be illegal aliens, which was "too harsh", and so that got watered down to "illegal immigrant", which it sounds like now it just, so, god, dehumanizing, so now we're at "unauthorized immigrant". So "unauthorized killings", still to harsh. Maybe "unauthorized cessation of life"? Long, but, look how much better it sounds...from "God Chicago has a lot of killing by criminals", to, "God Chicago has a lot of 'unauthorized cessations of life'".

Have to hand it to folks advocating this change, the Nazi party would be proud of your public perception change efforts.

Chuck
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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I'm sure the AP will in the future report bank robbery as "undocumented withdrawals", and rape as "unauthorized intercourse".
That's because you're a dishonest partisan who's incapable of reading and digesting any article more than a paragraph long. What you're "sure" of only illustrates the pitfall of people who use faith instead of fact. What you will find AP reporting is a person convicted of bank robbery, instead of robber, and a person convicted of rape instead of rapist.


It's political correctness run amok, in an effort to push a political agenda by re-framing a discussion through use of language. It has worked to perfection with other issues and will work with this one as well because the public doesn't care enough to reject it.
True, though I suspect none of these gems popped into your head as you said that: death tax, death panels, tax burden, job creators, War on Terror, etc., ad nauseum. Yes, words have power, and both sides use and abuse them to sell their agendas.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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On the other hand, "undocumented immigrant" is a very useful phrase. Why? Because it clearly states the offense in question: An undocumented immigrant is someone who resides in a country without proper documentation.

No, that's plain stupid. Calling someone an "undocumented immigrant" is implying that they are here legally, but that their presence is not documented, that it's a simply clerical oversight. It's basically a term used by idiots who want to think that every illegal has a right to be here, that we just need to give them appropriate paperwork.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,812
1,456
126
I wonder if we can stop paying taxes and just have it ignored and called "unauthorized non-payment"? It's precisely the same logic, should be legit according to the AP. Hmm, if I steal a car am I an "unauthorized driver"? Wow, I think the AP is actually winning me over here. Heck, I can go spam this site, breaking every AT rule, and I'll simply be making "unauthorized comments", and hence un-bannable.

This "logic" is brilliant!

Wait...so if someone in NY is carrying a 15 round mag in their just purchased Glock, they're not doing something illegal and thus a criminal, no, they're simply an possessing an "unauthorzied loadout".

The AP: Making anything go since 2013.

Chuck

BCYkIC9CEAAj9dT.jpg:large
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
That's because you're a dishonest partisan who's incapable of reading and digesting any article more than a paragraph long. What you're "sure" of only illustrates the pitfall of people who use faith instead of fact. What you will find AP reporting is a person convicted of bank robbery, instead of robber, and a person convicted of rape instead of rapist.

Based on that logic, they should be using the term "person who immigrated illegally" or "person who illegally resides in the US". Undocumented is just a BS term to pretend that they just need some papers, rather than the fact that someone is here illegally.

True, though I suspect none of these gems popped into your head as you said that: death tax, death panels, tax burden, job creators, War on Terror, etc., ad nauseum. Yes, words have power, and both sides use and abuse them to sell their agendas.
The difference is that one side has a willing accomplice of useful idiots pretending to be objective journalists to do their bidding, while the other does not.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Haha, yes! Chicago doesn't even have crime using this "logic". They simply have "unauthorized killings". Wait...killings...that's too strong a word. It used to be illegal aliens, which was "too harsh", and so that got watered down to "illegal immigrant", which it sounds like now it just, so, god, dehumanizing, so now we're at "unauthorized immigrant". So "unauthorized killings", still to harsh. Maybe "unauthorized cessation of life"? Long, but, look how much better it sounds...from "God Chicago has a lot of killing by criminals", to, "God Chicago has a lot of 'unauthorized cessations of life'".

Have to hand it to folks advocating this change, the Nazi party would be proud of your public perception change efforts.

Chuck
When Nehalem is high-fiving you, a thoughtful person will look in a mirror and say, "Where did I go wrong? Are my posts truly that useless?" (Hint, yes they are, at least in this thread.)
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
[ ... ]
The difference is that one side has a willing accomplice of useful idiots pretending to be objective journalists to do their bidding, while the other does not.
Really? Which of those phrases above have not appeared in the mainstream media? For example, I vaguely recall seeing and hearing the phrase "War on Terror" roughly a billion times. But please carry on in your blind partisanship. You poor little children are so oppressed by that big, bad librul media. It must suck going through life as such a victim.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
With all due respect Charles, you seem to have forgotten what "trolling" means.

With all due respect back, I think you have. :) Most people have.

"Trolling" comes from the fishing term, not Tolkein. It refers specifically to posting something with the primary intention of soliciting a reaction. In particular, trolling means posting something you don't actually believe just to get people riled up so they reply.

I agree that the OP is inflammatory, but that's par for the course here these days, and it's not trolling IMO because it's consistent with what he always posts. At any rate, I was more interested in the underlying issue than dismissing it all as "trolling".

I thought their example re. schizophrenia illustrated their reasoning well. They don't label the person as "schizophrenic". They label the behavior as a "person with schizophrenia". While that is certainly being PC, it is also quite consistent with their overall approach to objective, non-prejudicial reporting. They don't label Bernie Madoff a crook. They say he was convicted of xyz crimes.

Again, if I really thought deed/doer separation was the goal here, I wouldn't object as much. I simply don't believe they are really going to write "immigrants here illegally" -- they're going to stop using the word "illegal" altogether, and that *is* a political agenda.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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PC at its finest. FFS call a spade a spade people. I am fine with and will continue calling them Illegal Immigrants for all my life.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
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Hummm, let cuss out a few members and mods ..... not my fault, I was just "undocumented commenting" and if any of you are upset about that, you are a racist/xenophobic/<fill in the blank nasty words>

<tongue in cheek here, don't ban me now, mods>