Liberal News (Associated Press) droping term 'illegal immigrants'

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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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If I thought it would accomplish anything, I might. We both know that it will not.
Which is so NOT the point. The point is they recognize their application of their own "do not label people" rule is incomplete. Your position seems to be since they are not perfect, they're not allowed to try to become better.


The answer to that is in your first paragraph: "Rome wasn't built in a day." If you look at the writings of the people who are leading this effort, it's quite clear that getting rid of the word "illegal" is the ultimate goal; changing it from an adjective applied to people into one applied to action is just getting the camel's nose under the tent. ...
I give up. It is impossible to refute a conspiracy theory with facts and evidence. No matter how much I can offer, it will always be just part of their diabolical plot. All I can say is it is immaterial what some small group of activists want; what matters is what the AP does.

The irony here is that I personally have no issue with the phrase "illegal immigrant." It's a clear, descriptive phrase. Everyone knows what it refers to. I do recognize it is sometimes used as a slur, however, and I understand why AP feels it is no longer appropriate for their high standards of objective and non-prejudicial journalism. Is it unneccessarily PC? Probably, but I am content to let the AP make their own decisions about what is best for their business. What I won't do is subscribe to some conspiracy theory that this is all a librul plot by the librul media to cede America to Mexico, or whatever today's outrage mongers are peddling.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Which is so NOT the point. The point is they recognize their application of their own "do not label people" rule is incomplete. Your position seems to be since they are not perfect, they're not allowed to try to become better.

I think the argument is that the "do not label people" rule is stupid. See post: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34839376&postcount=143

As well as the fact that in this case it is blatantly obvious they are changing it to at best placate illegal immigration activists.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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In the mind of a leftist, feelings are more important than facts. Who cares if they're illegal immigrants, as long as they pretend nothing is wrong, then it must be true.

Speaking of irony, it's hilarious to see you blasting "leftists" for placing feelings above fact when that is exactly what you just did. The fact is nobody is claiming they're doing nothing wrong. That's just a straw man used to justify the feelings of anti-Mexican righties. AP explicitly continues to refer to their actions as illegal, documented for all the world to read right in their Stylebook. You are a hypocrite, guilty of the same behavior for which you attack others.

Just for the record.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Speaking of irony, it's hilarious to see you blasting "leftists" for placing feelings above fact when that is exactly what you just did. The fact is nobody is claiming they're doing nothing wrong. That's just a straw man used to justify the feelings of anti-Mexican righties. AP explicitly continues to refer to their actions as illegal, documented for all the world to read right in their Stylebook. You are a hypocrite, guilty of the same behavior for which you attack others.

Just for the record.

Illegal immigrant does not equal mexican.
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
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http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision...standards-book/story?id=18862824#.UVwu2j4o6M-


How soon will all the resident circle jerk libs come out and once again try to repeat the lie that the media is not liberal?


This is typical of the liberal playbook, change the language, control the debate. They're not illegal immigrants, just undocumented. They just lost their papers as they were crossing the borders. We should just hug the undocumented, give them some welfare because they are poor and hungry. some free housing too. They didn't do anything wrong according to the news.

Well, if you have no proof they illegally entered you're just talking shit and being openly racist about the whole issue.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
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Speaking of irony, it's hilarious to see you blasting "leftists" for placing feelings above fact when that is exactly what you just did.
That's some brilliant rationalization logic there. How exactly did you jump to that conclusion if not for the assumption that the only reason anyone would object to illegal border-hoppers is some ethnic hate and/or racism?
The fact is nobody is claiming they're doing nothing wrong.
Because doing so would make people question whether it is or isn't wrong. No, you simply sweep the issue under the rug by obfuscating their actual wrongdoing by less offensive terminology, thereby bypassing the entire question altogether.
That's just a straw man used to justify the feelings of anti-Mexican righties.
Lol, the irony of that "straw man" argument is not lost on me.
AP explicitly continues to refer to their actions as illegal, documented for all the world to read right in their Stylebook. You are a hypocrite, guilty of the same behavior for which you attack others.

Just for the record.
They do? Where? When was the last time you saw an article which explicitly states that what the illegal immigrants did was illegal?
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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Well, if you have no proof they illegally entered you're just talking shit and being openly racist about the whole issue.

They must have just appeared. Got it.

Hint: there is no proof they entered legally, either. The onus is on them since others can't prove all the ways how they didn't get here.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
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Speaking of irony, it's hilarious to see you blasting "leftists" for placing feelings above fact when that is exactly what you just did. The fact is nobody is claiming they're doing nothing wrong. That's just a straw man used to justify the feelings of anti-Mexican righties. AP explicitly continues to refer to their actions as illegal, documented for all the world to read right in their Stylebook. You are a hypocrite, guilty of the same behavior for which you attack others.

Just for the record.

So demanding ALL ILLEGALS to follow our existing immigration law = anti Mexicans? So I guess other developed nations such as Australia, Canada, and such are so racist and anti- <fill in the particular group> because they demand ALL immigrants to follow the rule of law? Gotcha. :biggrin:

Oh, and you do know that there are other races/groups beside Mexicans as ILLEGAL immigrants, right?

Who says that? StormFront? Fox News? Boogey Man?

Nope, Pew Hispanic Center = http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41371038/ns/us_news-life/t/number-illegal-immigrants-holds-steady-us/

Other Pew findings:
&#8212;Mexicans make up the majority of the illegal immigrant population at 58 percent, or 6.5 million. They are followed by people from other Latin American countries at 23 percent, or 2.6 million; Asia at 11 percent or 1.3 million; Europe and Canada at 4 percent or 500,000; and African countries and other nations at 3 percent, or 400,000.
 
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thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,073
1,478
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So demanding ALL ILLEGALS to follow our existing immigration law = anti Mexicans? So I guess other developed nations such as Australia, Canada, and such are so racist and anti- <fill in the particular group> because they demand ALL immigrants to follow the rule of law? Gotcha. :biggrin:

Oh, and you do know that there are other races/groups beside Mexicans as ILLEGAL immigrants, right?

Who says that? StormFront? Fox News? Boogey Man?

Nope, Pew Hispanic Center = http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41371038/ns/us_news-life/t/number-illegal-immigrants-holds-steady-us/

You have some serious issues with reading comprehension man. I don't even know how the hell you got what you did out of the post you quoted. I'd think you'd have to be as bad at English as I am with Japanese to have understood what he said the way you did.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
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You have some serious issues with reading comprehension man. I don't even know how the hell you got what you did out of the post you quoted. I'd think you'd have to be as bad at English as I am with Japanese to have understood what he said the way you did.

Did he say "That's just a straw man used to justify the feelings of anti-Mexican righties"? Yes he did. So I replied with link (from liberal source) to back up my statements. How could asking everyone to follow existing immigration law is bad or anti Mexican or anti any particular group? I just don't get it. That's my point.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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Which is so NOT the point. The point is they recognize their application of their own "do not label people" rule is incomplete. Your position seems to be since they are not perfect, they're not allowed to try to become better.

Um, this is not like a gymnast who has to practice for years to get a routine right, or a complex engineering problem that requires a lot of trial and error.

If they actually gave a shit about uniformly applying this "non-label" policy, they could have simply made up a whole list of such words and phrases that would no longer be allowed.

They didn't do that. They focused only on this one phrase, because they were pressured to by left-wing activists who decided they were "offended". That is the very definition of political correctness.

I give up. It is impossible to refute a conspiracy theory with facts and evidence. No matter how much I can offer, it will always be just part of their diabolical plot. All I can say is it is immaterial what some small group of activists want; what matters is what the AP does.

That's right, it's what AP does. And that's why I am criticizing them, and not the activists.

Your attempt to dismiss my argument as a "conspiracy theory" is utterly invalid. My argument is based on yours: if "Rome wasn't built in a day" means they could add more words to their ban list, then "illegal" in the context of immigration certainly could be one of them. And there's every reason to believe that will happen, because the same activists complaining about "illegal immigration" also dislike "immigrant here illegally" and the other euphemisms that connote (accurately) the illegal behavior.

There's no need for a conspiracy, just for AP to cave to some activist who objects to the word "illegal" in the same way they caved to the activists objecting to the phrase "illegal immigrant".
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,235
14,940
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UPDATED on April 2, 2013: The AP Stylebook today is making some changes in how we describe people living in a country illegally. Senior Vice President and Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll explains the thinking behind the decision.

In "Close to the News," a staff newsletter about the AP news report, worldwide and in all media, Deputy Managing Editor for Standards and Production Tom Kent reviews use of the term "illegal immigrant" and offers further guidance on writing about immigration issues.


In recent weeks, we&#8217;ve seen some requests for the AP and other news organizations to ban the term &#8220;illegal immigrant,&#8221; based on the contention that the term is inaccurate and dehumanizing. The issue has come up in the past, too, almost always in the U.S. context; we rarely see a complaint when the term is used to refer to people who illegally enter other countries.

The latest discussion has given AP an opportunity to clear up some misunderstandings about its policies -- particularly the incorrect assertion that we insist on the use of &#8220;illegal immigrant.&#8221;

The discussion has also reinforced for us the importance of reporting clearly and precisely about this sensitive subject, where there is a distinct danger of broad-brushing people and making incorrect assumptions.

Let&#8217;s talk about why we sometimes use &#8220;illegal immigrant.&#8221; Then we&#8217;ll look at some best practices in covering this issue, in the United States or elsewhere.

The first thing to note is that &#8220;illegal immigrant&#8221; is not the only term we use. The Stylebook entry on this subject was modified a year ago to make clear that other wording is always acceptable, including &#8220;living in the country without legal permission.&#8221;

In fact, there are cases where &#8220;illegal immigrant&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work at all. For instance, if a young man was brought into the country by parents who entered illegally, he didn&#8217;t consciously commit any act of &#8220;immigration&#8221; himself. It&#8217;s best to describe such a person as living in the country without legal permission, and then explain his story.

There are also cases where a person&#8217;s right to be in the country is currently in legal dispute; in such a case, we can&#8217;t yet say the person is here illegally.

But what about the cases where we do write &#8220;illegal immigrants&#8221;? Why not say &#8220;undocumented immigrants&#8221; or &#8220;unauthorized immigrants,&#8221; as some advocates would have it?

To us, these terms obscure the essential fact that such people are here in violation of the law. It&#8217;s simply a legal reality.

Terms like &#8220;undocumented&#8221; and &#8220;unauthorized&#8221; can make a person&#8217;s illegal presence in the country appear to be a matter of minor paperwork. Many illegal immigrants aren&#8217;t &#8220;undocumented&#8221; at all; they may have a birth certificate and passport from their home country, plus a U.S. driver&#8217;s license, Social Security card or school ID. What they lack is the fundamental right to be in the United States.

Without that right, their presence is illegal. Some say the word is inaccurate, because depending on the situation, they may be violating only civil, not criminal law. But both are laws, and violating any law is an illegal act (we do not say &#8220;criminal immigrant&#8221;).

Finally, there&#8217;s the concern that &#8220;illegal immigrant&#8221; offends a person&#8217;s dignity by suggesting his very existence is illegal. We don&#8217;t read the term this way. We refer routinely to illegal loggers, illegal miners, illegal vendors and so forth. Our language simply means that a person is logging, mining, selling, etc., in violation of the law -- just as illegal immigrants have immigrated in violation of the law. (Precisely to respect the dignity of people in this situation, the Stylebook warns against such terms as &#8220;illegal alien,&#8221; &#8220;an illegal&#8221; or &#8220;illegals.&#8221;)

All that said, the discussion about &#8220;illegal immigrant&#8221; underlines the sensitivity of this topic, and reminds us that writing about immigration requires care and precision. Some best practices going forward:

&#8226;As the Stylebook says, we should not speak of people violating immigration laws without &#8220;reliable information about a person&#8217;s true status&#8221; -- which most commonly means a legal charge against them or a court decision.

&#8226;Be especially careful about raids in which police seize large numbers of alleged illegal immigrants. Ask how many have actually been charged, and with what: entering the country illegally, overstaying visas or with non-immigration-related offenses? Were any people found to be legitimately in the country and released? If such details are not available, make that clear in the story.

&#8226;Don&#8217;t lump together in stories and scripts people who entered the country illegally as adults, and young people who were brought in as children and have spent most of their lives in the country. People have their own stories; respect that. Some people entered the country legally on a tourist or other visa but violated the law by overstaying it. When organizations and politicians talk about &#8220;illegal immigrants,&#8221; ask them specifically whom they mean.

&#8226;Be specific about nationalities. Don&#8217;t let terms like &#8220;illegal immigrants&#8221; be used synonymously with one nationality or ethnic group.
&#8226;Make sure you have a clear understanding of immigration-related legal issues in your area, including under what circumstances police have a right or obligation to inquire into a person&#8217;s immigration status.

Our goal is to report fully and carefully on immigration matters without obscuring the fundamental facts of the situation.


P.S.: ONE SPECIAL CASE

We&#8217;ve been asked for a concise way to refer to people illegally in the United States who win a temporary right to remain in the country under the Obama Administration&#8217;s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program.

We recommend saying successful applicants have &#8220;temporary resident status,&#8221; with details on the program lower in the story. This term will be added to the online Stylebook.

Those granted temporary resident status must have proved they arrived in the U.S. before age 16, are 30 years old or younger, high school graduates or in school, or served in the U.S. military. They cannot have a serious criminal record or otherwise pose a threat to public safety or national security. They will be allowed to stay in the U.S. for up to two years and be given work permits. Applications can be renewed in two years.

Alejandro Mayorkas, director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, says the program serves to delay possible deportation for successful applicants, without excusing "past unlawful presence." He says, &#8220;It does not provide a pathway to permanent residence or citizenship."

http://www.ap.org/content/press-release/2012/reviewing-the-use-of-illegal-immigrant
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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Um, this is not like a gymnast who has to practice for years to get a routine right, or a complex engineering problem that requires a lot of trial and error.

If they actually gave a shit about uniformly applying this "non-label" policy, they could have simply made up a whole list of such words and phrases that would no longer be allowed.

They didn't do that. They focused only on this one phrase, because they were pressured to by left-wing activists who decided they were "offended". That is the very definition of political correctness.



That's right, it's what AP does. And that's why I am criticizing them, and not the activists.

Your attempt to dismiss my argument as a "conspiracy theory" is utterly invalid. My argument is based on yours: if "Rome wasn't built in a day" means they could add more words to their ban list, then "illegal" in the context of immigration certainly could be one of them. And there's every reason to believe that will happen, because the same activists complaining about "illegal immigration" also dislike "immigrant here illegally" and the other euphemisms that connote (accurately) the illegal behavior.

There's no need for a conspiracy, just for AP to cave to some activist who objects to the word "illegal" in the same way they caved to the activists objecting to the phrase "illegal immigrant".

Are you saying they haven't made changes to any other terms they have used with regards to other subjects?
Do you have a copy of their stylebook? If not then how do you know this was done because they caved to activists?

So far you have very little facts to back your claim.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
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UPDATED on April 2, 2013: The AP Stylebook today is making some changes in how we describe people living in a country illegally. Senior Vice President and Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll explains the thinking behind the decision.

In "Close to the News," a staff newsletter about the AP news report, worldwide and in all media, Deputy Managing Editor for Standards and Production Tom Kent reviews use of the term "illegal immigrant" and offers further guidance on writing about immigration issues.

In recent weeks, we’ve seen some requests for the AP and other news organizations to ban the term “illegal immigrant,” based on the contention that the term is inaccurate and dehumanizing. The issue has come up in the past, too, almost always in the U.S. context; we rarely see a complaint when the term is used to refer to people who illegally enter other countries.

The 3rd paragraph explains the reason for the change. Pretty clear it was illegal immigrant activists pressuring them to drop the term for illegal immigrants in the US.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,235
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The 3rd paragraph explains the reason for the change. Pretty clear it was illegal immigrant activists pressuring them to drop the term for illegal immigrants in the US.

Yeah except they didn't ban it, they clarified it's use. Reading comprehension is a skill not a given;)
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
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It is ironic how conservatives in this thread, including the OP, are complaining about people changing the definitions of things when they themselves have bought hook, line, and sinker the idea that "liberals" or "leftists" exist in US politics in this country... The Democrats are middle/right and the Republicans are off the cliff right... yet Republicans have redefined "liberal" to mean not towing the Republican line!

It creates a false narrative wherein there are two extremes, when in reality there is only one extreme and another party that isn't even middle anymore and has been pulled right.

Our democrats are more to the right than the conservative parties of every other first world country...
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
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It is ironic how conservatives in this thread, including the OP, are complaining about people changing the definitions of things when they themselves have bought hook, line, and sinker the idea that "liberals" or "leftists" exist in US politics in this country... The Democrats are middle/right and the Republicans are off the cliff right... yet Republicans have redefined "liberal" to mean not towing the Republican line!

It creates a false narrative wherein there are two extremes, when in reality there is only one extreme and another party that isn't even middle anymore and has been pulled right.

Our democrats are more to the right than the conservative parties of every other first world country...

Or we could say the rest of the world is off the cliff left, Democrats are left, and Republicans are moderate.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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but we don't say that, because we are (mostly) rational humans, no?

Why is it irrational? 20 years ago support for same-sex marriage would be undeniably a radical off the cliff left-wing idea. Today Democrats and even some Republicans support it. It seems to me like both American parties have drifted left-ward.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,073
1,478
126
Why is it irrational? 20 years ago support for same-sex marriage would be undeniably a radical off the cliff left-wing idea. Today Democrats and even some Republicans support it. It seems to me like both American parties have drifted left-ward.

Well it's nice to see that you agree that equal rights is a left-wing idea.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
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saw this on cnn earlier: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/us/illegal-immigrant-term-still-a-challenge/index.html?iref=allsearch

utter bullshit if you ask me.

immigrant: noun
1.
a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
2.
an organism found in a new habitat.

therefore if you illegally immigrate, you are an illegal immigrant.

from the article

"Other media outlets, including CNN, NBC News, The Huffington Post, ABC News/Univision, and Fox News Latino, already have a different lexicon"

But no those aren't left wing news media outlets.

Lets see

The left doesn't like the term 'illegal immigrant'.

Employees/directors/editors at various MSM 'news' outlets get together to talk about the language they use, and some how come to the conclusion that 'illegal immigrant' is bad.

Since the vast majority of people that hate the term 'illegal immigrant' are lefties.
And the vast majority of MSM are rejecting the term 'illegal immigrant', it only follows that a majority of the MSM are lefties.