Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I thought it was also of note, to observe Bush, who has been described (at least around here) as "classy" for not having engaged in the public debate over this stuff since leaving office, has now come out in two separate speeches defending his administration's behavior.

W has now effectively entered the debate too. Interesting, because I assumed he was having Cheney act as their administration's mouthpiece. Frankly, it seems neither Bush or Cheney can keep their mouths shut and simply fade off into the sunset.

Uh, yeah, stay "classy" you too. :roll:

Where was your outrage at Jimmah Carter and Bill Clinton bashing a sitting president?

Clearly, they waited far longer than Cheney or Bush combined before entering the public debate over the current administration's actions and/or policies, but nice try at a duhversion. Would you like to talk about Pelosi now?

Nice rationalization lol. The door is open, dont whine about who comes through.

Pelosi was part of your own story or didnt you fully read it?

I think you're both right, actually. The double standard certainly exists when it comes to who knew what, when, among the Democrats and Republicans...and you're just trying to use that to divert attention away from reasonable criticism of members of the Bush administration.

It's really two separate issues. Pelosi being an idiot doesn't make Cheney any more or less guilty of also being an idiot. That's not to say that it's alright to just focus on one of them for partisan reasons, but then again, that's basically what you're doing. In fact, it's basically what everyone in this thread is doing.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: retrospooty
Pelosi, being Pelosi... she is roasting herself. Hopefully the numbnuts in San Francisco FINALLY see it and don't re-elect her this next round.
Is she up for re-election in 2010 or 2012?
Beyond that, hopefully the rest of the dems in congress see that she is poison and hurts the party more than she helps it, and removes her leadership role.

The Speaker of the House is not a Senator. She faces the voters every two years like every other Representative.

 

[blackangst1]

Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: retrospooty
Pelosi, being Pelosi... she is roasting herself. Hopefully the numbnuts in San Francisco FINALLY see it and don't re-elect her this next round.
Is she up for re-election in 2010 or 2012?
Beyond that, hopefully the rest of the dems in congress see that she is poison and hurts the party more than she helps it, and removes her leadership role.

The Speaker of the House is not a Senator. She faces the voters every two years like every other Representative.

Who said otherwise?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: retrospooty
Pelosi, being Pelosi... she is roasting herself. Hopefully the numbnuts in San Francisco FINALLY see it and don't re-elect her this next round.
Is she up for re-election in 2010 or 2012?
Beyond that, hopefully the rest of the dems in congress see that she is poison and hurts the party more than she helps it, and removes her leadership role.

The Speaker of the House is not a Senator. She faces the voters every two years like every other Representative.

Who said otherwise?

The question concerning election date does raise the possibility that either the poster thought that Pelosi was a Senator, up for re-election every six years or that the poster didn't know that Reps are up for election every two years. Either way, Cheney is still a war criminal.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: retrospooty
Pelosi, being Pelosi... she is roasting herself. Hopefully the numbnuts in San Francisco FINALLY see it and don't re-elect her this next round.
Is she up for re-election in 2010 or 2012?
Beyond that, hopefully the rest of the dems in congress see that she is poison and hurts the party more than she helps it, and removes her leadership role.

The Speaker of the House is not a Senator. She faces the voters every two years like every other Representative.

Who said otherwise?

Well if someone is asking if someone is up for an election in 2010 OR 2012, that implies they think they aren't up for election in both of them.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Again, double standard.

Says you.

Al Gore, as just one example, waited TWO years before he started commenting publicly on the following administration. Cheney waited, what? Two weeks? Two days?

I guess folks like you can't see the difference there, no big surprise. Ah, and Genx87 too I see. No difference between 2 years and 2 weeks, eh? Yeah, it's all the same.

You two are hilarious.

Al Gore was too busy climbing onto the war bandwagon...along with all the other pussy dems...there was no controversy to comment on.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Regardless of their culpability in the past (which is shameful), it most certainly IS a partisan issue now. The Democrats are trying to limit it, the Republicans are trying to stop them. I for one am glad that Democrats are at least trying to do the right thing now, as opposed to the Republicans continuing and gleeful embrace of torture.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Again, double standard.

Says you.

Al Gore, as just one example, waited TWO years before he started commenting publicly on the following administration. Cheney waited, what? Two weeks? Two days?

I guess folks like you can't see the difference there, no big surprise. Ah, and Genx87 too I see. No difference between 2 years and 2 weeks, eh? Yeah, it's all the same.

You two are hilarious.

Al Gore was too busy climbing onto the war bandwagon...along with all the other pussy dems...there was no controversy to comment on.

He also didn't comment for the 9 months of Bush's presidency before 9/11, something that Dick Cheney has proven unable to do.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: retrospooty
Pelosi, being Pelosi... she is roasting herself. Hopefully the numbnuts in San Francisco FINALLY see it and don't re-elect her this next round.
Is she up for re-election in 2010 or 2012?
Beyond that, hopefully the rest of the dems in congress see that she is poison and hurts the party more than she helps it, and removes her leadership role.

The Speaker of the House is not a Senator. She faces the voters every two years like every other Representative.

Who said otherwise?

Well if someone is asking if someone is up for an election in 2010 OR 2012, that implies they think they aren't up for election in both of them.

Now I get it, thanks.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Again, that doesn't even remotely change what the Republicans did or did not do...

I'm with you that some Democrats are being hypocritical here, but it's equally moronic that many Republicans are refusing to defend (or even discuss) their own actions and instead fling mud at the Democrats. Lambasting Pelosi while ignoring Cheney is just as bad as doing it the other way around.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Again, double standard.

Says you.

Al Gore, as just one example, waited TWO years before he started commenting publicly on the following administration. Cheney waited, what? Two weeks? Two days?

I guess folks like you can't see the difference there, no big surprise. Ah, and Genx87 too I see. No difference between 2 years and 2 weeks, eh? Yeah, it's all the same.

You two are hilarious.

Al Gore was too busy climbing onto the war bandwagon...along with all the other pussy dems...there was no controversy to comment on.

Climbing onto the bandwagon, eh?

"Like all Americans I have been wrestling with the question of what our country needs to do to defend itself from the kind of intense, focused and enabled hatred that brought about September 11th, and which at this moment must be presumed to be gathering force for yet another attack. I?m speaking today in an effort to recommend a specific course of action for our country which I believe would be preferable to the course recommended by President Bush. Specifically, I am deeply concerned that the policy we are presently following with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century."

Al Gore on Sept 23, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/gore/gore092302sp.html

Yeah, sounds like Gore was TOTALLY onboard with regards to Iraq! Totally.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Again, double standard.

Says you.

Al Gore, as just one example, waited TWO years before he started commenting publicly on the following administration. Cheney waited, what? Two weeks? Two days?

I guess folks like you can't see the difference there, no big surprise. Ah, and Genx87 too I see. No difference between 2 years and 2 weeks, eh? Yeah, it's all the same.

You two are hilarious.

Al Gore was too busy climbing onto the war bandwagon...along with all the other pussy dems...there was no controversy to comment on.

Climbing onto the bandwagon, eh?

"Like all Americans I have been wrestling with the question of what our country needs to do to defend itself from the kind of intense, focused and enabled hatred that brought about September 11th, and which at this moment must be presumed to be gathering force for yet another attack. I?m speaking today in an effort to recommend a specific course of action for our country which I believe would be preferable to the course recommended by President Bush. Specifically, I am deeply concerned that the policy we are presently following with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century."

Al Gore on Sept 23, 2002

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/gore/gore092302sp.html

Yeah, sounds like Gore was TOTALLY onboard with regards to Iraq! Totally.

Wait, I thought he waited two years before he questioned policy? Which is it? :shocked:

He was on board, he basically was muttering the same feeble things all the other dems were "well maybe we should give it more time, maybe it should have more international support"

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Regardless of their culpability in the past (which is shameful), it most certainly IS a partisan issue now. The Democrats are trying to limit it, the Republicans are trying to stop them. I for one am glad that Democrats are at least trying to do the right thing now, as opposed to the Republicans continuing and gleeful embrace of torture.

I would agree with you eskimo, if only the Dems would take responsibility for their own culpability, and go after their own who clearly were just as guilty. But they arent.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Again, that doesn't even remotely change what the Republicans did or did not do...

I'm with you that some Democrats are being hypocritical here, but it's equally moronic that many Republicans are refusing to defend (or even discuss) their own actions and instead fling mud at the Democrats. Lambasting Pelosi while ignoring Cheney is just as bad as doing it the other way around.

You mean like the fucking Dems are doing? Gimme a break. And yes, I give the nod to "Lambasting Pelosi while ignoring Cheney is just as bad as doing it the other way around". This whole outrage against the GOP without including the equally guilty Dems is shameful.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Again, that doesn't even remotely change what the Republicans did or did not do...

I'm with you that some Democrats are being hypocritical here, but it's equally moronic that many Republicans are refusing to defend (or even discuss) their own actions and instead fling mud at the Democrats. Lambasting Pelosi while ignoring Cheney is just as bad as doing it the other way around.

You mean like the fucking Dems are doing? Gimme a break. And yes, I give the nod to "Lambasting Pelosi while ignoring Cheney is just as bad as doing it the other way around". This whole outrage against the GOP without including the equally guilty Dems is shameful.

I just SAID that the Dems are equally guilty and being hypocritical when they go after Republicans without admitting their own culpability...that's why it's hypocrisy. What are you getting pissy at me for...I'm basically agreeing with you here...

Torture is bad enough. The fact that all either side can do is point fingers at their political opponents is almost worse. Democrats who go after Republicans when the Democrats share the blame is hypocritical, Republicans who use pointing out this hypocrisy as a distraction from THEIR part of the blame are just as bad. Politics should stop at the water's edge, or well before that, but clearly it doesn't. It's an important issue that it vital to our national defense and our moral standing in the world, and the fact that everyone on either side sees it as a club to bludgeon their political opposition with is probably the worst part of all.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Regardless of their culpability in the past (which is shameful), it most certainly IS a partisan issue now. The Democrats are trying to limit it, the Republicans are trying to stop them. I for one am glad that Democrats are at least trying to do the right thing now, as opposed to the Republicans continuing and gleeful embrace of torture.

I would agree with you eskimo, if only the Dems would take responsibility for their own culpability, and go after their own who clearly were just as guilty. But they arent.

Wait, let me get this straight, Pelosi - who allegedly was BRIEFED about enhanced interrogation techniques - is just as guilty as the Republican Administration who came up with the idea, enabled teams of lawyers to try and justify it, and then systematically hid it from the American people, destroying evidence and blocking investigations?

Seriously, you're actually equating the two? That's laughable.

And what other Dems besides Pelosi even knew about it? (Allegedly, knew about it?) Can you name names?

And now the Democratic-controlled gov't is putting a stop to it, while Cheney and Bush are out there running a PR campaign claiming it's the greatest thing since warrantless wiretaps? Excuse me, but that's not the same at all. How about engaging your brain for once? These aren't the same positions at all. They're exactly 100% opposite.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Genx87

So lets see the documents and prove Cheney a liar!

Senator Levin agrees. He said:

I hope that the documents are declassified, so that people can judge for themselves what is fact, and what is fiction," he added.

And I cant believe nobody in the media is roasting Pelosi over her obvious lies.

1. Assuming for the sake of argument that Pelosi lied, it wouldn't excuse the lies of your thankfully EX-Traitor In Cheif, or the EX-ViceTraitor In Cheif or any of the rest of their criminal gang.

2. I don't believe you can prove she HAS lied. The jury's still out on whether Pelosi "lied" when she said the CIA mislead her. Other Democrats who were "briefed" have stated that they were NOT told waterboarding was being used, and Republicans have stated the CIA has lied.

Pelosi's not the only Democrat who says the CIA lied to Congress.

Another Democrat Says CIA Records On Briefings Were Not Accurate

First Posted: 05-19-09 11:30 AM | Updated: 05-19-09 06:11 PM

Yet another Democrat in Congress is alleging that the CIA included incorrect information in its records about past congressional briefings on interrogation policies.

Rep. David Obey sent a letter to CIA Director Leon Panetta on Tuesday saying that "in light of current controversy about CIA briefing practices," he was "surprised to learn that the agency erroneously listed an appropriations staffer as being in a key briefing on September 19, 2006, when in fact he was not."

Writes the Wisconsin Democrat: "The list the agency released entitled 'Member Briefings on Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EITs)', shows that House Appropriations Committee defense appropriations staffer Paul Juola was in that briefing on that date. In fact, Mr. Juola recollects that he walked members to the briefing room, met General Hayden and Mr. Walker, who were the briefers, and was told that he could not attend the briefing. We request that you immediately correct this record."

The letter makes Obey the fourth Democrat to allege that the CIA's record of which members of Congress were briefed on the Bush administration's enhanced interrogation techniques contained factual errors. Former Sen. Bob Graham, in an interview with the Huffington Post, noted that the agency's records initially had him being briefed four times in 2002 about the interrogation techniques. Upon contacting officials with the CIA, it was determined that he had only attended one such briefing. Similarly, Sen. Jay Rockefeller has said that the records kept by the agency and made public on May 7 contained errors in regards to his briefings.

All told, the testimonies of these three Democratic officials bolster the case made by Speaker Nancy Pelosi that the agency's own account of those now-controversial briefings is misleading. Pelosi -- like Graham -- has insisted that members of Congress were kept in the dark in the fall of 2002 about the Bush administration's use of waterboarding on terrorist suspects.
.
.
(continues)

Democrats aren't the only ones:

Last year, the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committe, Pete Hoekstra, of Michigan, he said this in response to a case he was watching very closely -- An American citizen who was killed in a plane crash -- A cover up he alleged involving the CIA -- He said these words:

"We cannot have an intelligence community that covers up what it does and then lies to Congress."

The only time Republicans say they don't think the CIA would lie to Congress is when they lie to Democrats.

 

[JKing106]

Stop with the "well, you did it too!" bullshit. Bush, and his administration are war criminals. As individuals. Political party doesn't matter one fucking bit. They lied us into a war that's been resposible for the deaths of more or less 1 million people. They continued to lie about the reasons for said war after the evidence didn't turn up. They tortured people to coerce false confessions to support the war. They've destroyed almost all physical evidence of said torture, conviently. Tons of email has been lost between individuals in Bush's administration. These people are trying very hard to hide something.

As to Cheney, the reason he won't shut up is that he's trying desperately to cover his own ass. This is the man who loves war, but managed to get 5, count 'em, FIVE draft deferments from Vietnam, because he had "other priorities." The man is a coward, and a sociopath. This is the man Halliburton made CEO, in spite of Cheney never being CEO of anything in his life, for his connections in the War Department. Damn, them no bid contracts pay good!

The days of pardoning criminals in the highest echelon of our government need to end. An example needs to made, to the world, to show the American people's commitment to ending this kind corruption. I say try them at the Hague, and televise the hanging.

 

[JKing106]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Wow. A democrat is calling a republican a liar. How unusual!

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the Republican ISN'T a liar

Well of course its politics as usual. The thing thats disingenuous is the dems are just as guilty as the GOP. They knew, approved, and funded this shit. Support for enhanced interrigation techniques is a not a partisan issue. It really makes the Dems look...well...like a bunch of clowns.

Regardless of their culpability in the past (which is shameful), it most certainly IS a partisan issue now. The Democrats are trying to limit it, the Republicans are trying to stop them. I for one am glad that Democrats are at least trying to do the right thing now, as opposed to the Republicans continuing and gleeful embrace of torture.

I would agree with you eskimo, if only the Dems would take responsibility for their own culpability, and go after their own who clearly were just as guilty. But they arent.

Wait, let me get this straight, Pelosi - who allegedly was BRIEFED about enhanced interrogation techniques - is just as guilty as the Republican Administration who came up with the idea, enabled teams of lawyers to try and justify it, and then systematically hid it from the American people, destroying evidence and blocking investigations?

Seriously, you're actually equating the two? That's laughable.

And what other Dems besides Pelosi even knew about it? (Allegedly, knew about it?) Can you name names?

And now the Democratic-controlled gov't is putting a stop to it, while Cheney and Bush are out there running a PR campaign claiming it's the greatest thing since warrantless wiretaps? Excuse me, but that's not the same at all. How about engaging your brain for once? These aren't the same positions at all. They're exactly 100% opposite.

Where's the proof Pelosi was briefed? Link it please. And if it's a link to Fox, or Limbaugh/Savage/Hannity's sites, then it's bullshit.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: ironwing
The question concerning election date does raise the possibility that either the poster thought that Pelosi was a Senator, up for re-election every six years or that the poster didn't know that Reps are up for election every two years. Either way, Cheney is still a war criminal.

Lol. :laugh:

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: JKing106
Where's the proof Pelosi was briefed? Link it please. And if it's a link to Fox, or Limbaugh/Savage/Hannity's sites, then it's bullshit.

That's why I said "allegedly." Did you catch that?

 

[JKing106]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: JKing106
Where's the proof Pelosi was briefed? Link it please. And if it's a link to Fox, or Limbaugh/Savage/Hannity's sites, then it's bullshit.

That's why I said "allegedly." Did you catch that?

"...is just as guilty as the Republican Administration who came up with the idea..."

Sounds to like you think it's fact. The "allegedly" is thrown in their just to cover your ass if it's proven to be not true. But, you're not the only person to be asserting it's true on this forum. Or the media, for that matter. Smoke and mirrors...

You really want to know why you've been taught to hate Pelosi? Yes, I said taught, because you wouldn't give two shits about her if Fox hadn't told you to. She's hated for the same reason Hilary Clinton is hated... she's a woman, in a male dominated power structure. In the minds of people like Limbaugh, the thought process runs like "who does that uppity wise and beautiful woman think she is?" THAT is why she's catching shit. No other reason. And people like you are just stupid enough to step right into line with that moronic, outdated thinking. Congratulations, moron, you're a sheep.