Lets talk about guns and gun free zones

[IEC]

Well, there are people who legally carry guns who aren't "good" so I ask you, why should I trust a complete stranger who is armed with a gun?

This gun owner is very skeptical that arming everyone who wants to carry a gun is a good thing. I question their motives, I question the statistics and I question that the states will do a good job with testing and licensing. I sure as hell don't want one of you crazy fuckers at my kid's school policing the place.

Project much?

I (and the vast majority of CHL holders) have no interest in "policing" or helping anybody but myself and my family when I carry. If someone starts shooting up a mall and my family and I can safely run, we'll run. Rule #0 of gunfighting is to be somewhere else when the shooting starts.

I may be trained to engage multiple moving targets in rapid succession, but I'm not sticking around to find out it's my 15 round handgun versus two guys armed with AKs. That's got a pretty high chance of ending poorly for me. If I have no escape option, I'm hunkering down with gun drawn and waiting for an opportunity to flee. At worst, I brought a gun to a gunfight (Rule #1).

You've got an irrational fear of CHL holders. And unlike in your egotistical fantasy, people don't care about you or your family enough to risk their lives "policing" on your behalf. We don't get paid to carry guns, and we're responsible for every bullet fired.

 

[natto fire]

Well, there are people who legally carry guns who aren't "good" so I ask you, why should I trust a complete stranger who is armed with a gun?

This gun owner is very skeptical that arming everyone who wants to carry a gun is a good thing. I question their motives, I question the statistics and I question that the states will do a good job with testing and licensing. I sure as hell don't want one of you crazy fuckers at my kid's school policing the place.

The idea was supposed to be background checks and other measures to ensure only reasonably sane people possessed CCW permits. I can't speak for everyone, but sanity in the state of California is a relative idea, IMO.

You should trust the stranger because ideally you would not have a bankrupt worthless state government handing out these permits.

There would obviously be ones who slipped through the cracks, but I think it is important to remember that someone willing to commit higher felonies is not going to give two shits about committing misdemeanors and lower felony gun control laws.

If you are really that worried about your kids you would home school them, as public school will only teach them the knowledge of the populous, which is turning to horrible manners and crime at large rates.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Project much?

I (and the vast majority of CHL holders) have no interest in "policing" or helping anybody but myself and my family when I carry. If someone starts shooting up a mall and my family and I can safely run, we'll run. Rule #0 of gunfighting is to be somewhere else when the shooting starts.

I may be trained to engage multiple moving targets in rapid succession, but I'm not sticking around to find out it's my 15 round handgun versus two guys armed with AKs. That's got a pretty high chance of ending poorly for me. If I have no escape option, I'm hunkering down with gun drawn and waiting for an opportunity to flee. At worst, I brought a gun to a gunfight (Rule #1).

You've got an irrational fear of CHL holders. And unlike in your egotistical fantasy, people don't care about you or your family enough to risk their lives "policing" on your behalf. We don't get paid to carry guns, and we're responsible for every bullet fired.

I don't have a fear of concealed whatever-the-fuck-acronym holders. I simply don't trust people easily who I don't know. I'm sure most CWTFA holders are decent people but not all of them are and I'm positive that quite a few gun owners are batshit insane. I've met plenty of them. They have a hardon for guns, they want to tell everyone they know that they know what's best for society and they generally make me uneasy and as soon as I meet them I want to not talk to them ever again. They tend to hang out at gun stores, gun shows and at shooting ranges but you'll encounter them in other places too and they probably have anti-Obama and pro-gun bumper stickers plastered all over the back of their cars. You'll find tables full of these snarky 4"x10" adhesive backed billboards at your local gun show.

Honestly, I tend to question the judgement of anyone who wants to carry a gun all the time. They just strike me as paranoid and delusional. I own guns and I sure as hell wouldn't carry one unless there was some sort of social unrest and it wasn't safe to go out unarmed. I've only felt that once in my lifetime thankfully.

I'll admit it, I own guns and when I started buying them I joined the NRA (won't ever make that mistake again I can assure you), bought gun magazines, went to gun shows but as you get older you realize that you cannot control everything in your life nor can you protect the ones you love 24/7 so it really just comes down to a matter of do I want to carry a heavy hunk of metal strapped to my hip every day? You really have to question the sanity of anyone who says yes to that question IMO.

Yeah, maybe I'm projecting a bit... sue me.

 

[JulesMaximus]

The idea was supposed to be background checks and other measures to ensure only reasonably sane people possessed CCW permits. I can't speak for everyone, but sanity in the state of California is a relative idea, IMO.

You should trust the stranger because ideally you would not have a bankrupt worthless state government handing out these permits.

There would obviously be ones who slipped through the cracks, but I think it is important to remember that someone willing to commit higher felonies is not going to give two shits about committing misdemeanors and lower felony gun control laws.

If you are really that worried about your kids you would home school them, as public school will only teach them the knowledge of the populous, which is turning to horrible manners and crime at large rates.

Right, so CA is a horrible place to live and everyone who lives there is insane, people who commit crimes don't care about laws, and I should home school my kid because in public school he will only become a worthless criminal thug. :whiste:

 

[natto fire]

I don't have a fear of concealed whatever-the-fuck-acronym holders. I simply don't trust people easily who I don't know. I'm sure most CWTFA holders are decent people but not all of them are and I'm positive that quite a few gun owners are batshit insane. I've met plenty of them. They have a hardon for guns, they want to tell everyone they know that they know what's best for society and they generally make me uneasy and as soon as I meet them I want to not talk to them ever again. They tend to hang out at gun stores, gun shows and at shooting ranges but you'll encounter them in other places too and they probably have anti-Obama and pro-gun bumper stickers plastered all over the back of their cars. You'll find tables full of these snarky 4"x10" adhesive backed billboards at your local gun show.

Honestly, I tend to question the judgement of anyone who wants to carry a gun all the time. They just strike me as paranoid and delusional. I own guns and I sure as hell wouldn't carry one unless there was some sort of social unrest and it wasn't safe to go out unarmed. I've only felt that once in my lifetime thankfully.

I'll admit it, I own guns and when I started buying them I joined the NRA (won't ever make that mistake again I can assure you), bought gun magazines, went to gun shows but as you get older you realize that you cannot control everything in your life nor can you protect the ones you love 24/7 so it really just comes down to a matter of do I want to carry a heavy hunk of metal strapped to my hip every day? You really have to question the sanity of anyone who says yes to that question IMO.

Yeah, maybe I'm projecting a bit... sue me.

Out of curiosity what was the NRA canvassing like? I am not a CCW holder but I do believe being shot should be an occupational hazard of being a thief. Not that there are material things to die for, but not respecting other's property rights should be a deadly offense.

If you don't want to die, then don't break into people's houses. If you are starving then there are plenty of programs to avert that, let's get real here and admit that drug addiction is a big sway in home invasions.

I am probably an overpopulated cynic, but I think there should be huge consequences for property crimes because it shows a lack of basic respect that is a major cog in the downfall of society IMO.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Out of curiosity what was the NRA canvassing like? I am not a CCW holder but I do believe being shot should be an occupational hazard of being a thief. Not that there are material things to die for, but not respecting other's property rights should be a deadly offense.

If you don't want to die, then don't break into people's houses. If you are starving then there are plenty of programs to avert that, let's get real here and admit that drug addiction is a big sway in home invasions.

I am probably an overpopulated cynic, but I think there should be huge consequences for property crimes because it shows a lack of basic respect that is a major cog in the downfall of society IMO.

I agree with everything you have stated in this post and I don't have a problem with people protecting their homes and businesses with guns. I don't even have a problem with the concept of carrying a gun, I just question the motives of people who want to. I don't want to live in a society where people feel the need to be armed all the time and I certainly don't want to be armed all the time. I am pretty cynical myself. Don't believe all the bullshit and propaganda you read.

The NRA would have you believe that it is this benevolent organization just out to protect your best interests but once you join all they do is ask you for donations, send you bullshit questionaires that are extremely biased, ask for more donations, and give you a free subscription to one of two publications that are basically just full of advertisements and NRA bullshit. I literally found very little in the magazine that was of any use or interest to me personally and found their constant mailers and requests for donations extremely annoying. Talk about junk mail... every week you would get some packet asking you questions and asking for donations and I never made a single donation. I just made the mistake of signing up for a 1 year membership. All they care about is money and power. And they have a shit load of both. I will never support this organization ever again.

 

[Nebor]

Thanks, it's apparently (some) open-carry yahoos and/or the media that gives Texas the reputation of being the Yosemite Sam capitol of the US

Open carry of pistols is illegal in Texas (contrary to common belief and good sense,) but open carry of rifles & shotguns is allowed in order to accommodate hunters. Combined with state preemption laws that prevent municipalities from passing any form of gun control, that means that people can carry rifles & shotguns anywhere they want. Some people who want the legislature to pass a law allowing the open carry of pistols (a goal I support) feel that the best way to to reach that goal is by making the open carry of rifles far more prevalent. I think that's not going to work in our favor, but what do I know.

 

[natto fire]

I agree with everything you have stated in this post and I don't have a problem with people protecting their homes and businesses with guns. I don't even have a problem with the concept of carrying a gun, I just question the motives of people who want to. I don't want to live in a society where people feel the need to be armed all the time and I certainly don't want to be armed all the time. I am pretty cynical myself. Don't believe all the bullshit and propaganda you read.

The NRA would have you believe that it is this benevolent organization just out to protect your best interests but once you join all they do is ask you for donations, send you bullshit questionaires that are extremely biased, ask for more donations, and give you a free subscription to one of two publications that are basically just full of advertisements and NRA bullshit. I literally found very little in the magazine that was of any use or interest to me personally and found their constant mailers and requests for donations extremely annoying. Talk about junk mail... every week you would get some packet asking you questions and asking for donations and I never made a single donation. I just made the mistake of signing up for a 1 year membership. All they care about is money and power. And they have a shit load of both. I will never support this organization ever again.

Thank you for that, because I probably don't have enough data to weigh in responsibly. As an NPR listener, I realize that drilling the populous for support has it's downfalls. I certainly see no reason to go back to the "good old days" when folks would settle disputes over a pistol duel (keep in mind I avoid P&N like the plague) just that certain activities should be met with deadly force to deter further crime in that area. Of course I think an iPad is not something worth dying over, but the onus should be on the person that thinks they need an iPad more than the person who worked and paid for it legitimately. If you want to go the other route, then you should essentially be trading your life (possibly) in order to break in to someone's home and steal it.

Like I said, I have never been associated with the NRA although I believe in some of their causes. It does not surprise me they are a fund raiser first and right's protectors second.

 

[mikeford]

The only historical reason to disarm the general public is to allow tyranny.

 

[Meghan54]

I carry for the same reasons rudeguy does except I don't give a rats ass if a business is a gun free zone. I will still carry in those places. Gun free zones signage doesn't carry any weight of the law in Indiana so all they can do is ask you to leave.

And this is the exact attitude that is giving ammunition (pardon the pun) to the virulent anti-gun advocates. It also shows a complete lack of common courtesy and paints gun owners as belligerent, self-righteous idiots.

 

[TallBill]

I live on a military post, I'm not allowed to carry, even though I have a permit.

 

[BoomerD]

Why do those with concealed carry permits believe that their right to own/carry firearms supersedes the private property rights of those who don't want guns on their premises?

As I've said before, I'm NOT anti-gun, and even believe more people should be allowed to have/carry them, but I also believe that if Joe Business Owner wants his place to be "gun free," that's his right. Your right to carry ends at his door.

 

[TallBill]

Why do those with concealed carry permits believe that their right to own/carry firearms supersedes the private property rights of those who don't want guns on their premises?

As I've said before, I'm NOT anti-gun, and even believe more people should be allowed to have/carry them, but I also believe that if Joe Business Owner wants his place to be "gun free," that's his right. Your right to carry ends at his door.

What about public universities?

 

[BoomerD]

What about public universities?

What about them? Let the university decide. After all, many other public buildings are already "gun free," courthouses, federal buildings, city hall, etc.

Or, are you advocating that colleges and universities should allow any/all students to carry?

 

[TallBill]

I don't see a downside. Uneducated 18 year olds who go straight to work out of high school are allowed to obtain legal carry permits, we don't have any data that supports that this is a dangerous group of people. If someone is going to illegally carry or own, one extra "not on campus" law isn't going to change anything.

Stop treating 18 years olds children and maybe they'll stop acting like children.

 

[BoomerD]

I don't see a downside. Uneducated 18 year olds who go straight to work out of high school are allowed to obtain legal carry permits, we don't have any data that supports that this is a dangerous group of people. If someone is going to illegally carry or own, one extra "not on campus" law isn't going to change anything.

Stop treating 18 years olds children and maybe they'll stop acting like children.

In SOME states, it's true. uneducated 18 year old kids CAN have handguns...but NOT ALL states. In many, 21 is the minimum legal age to possess a handgun. (with some exceptions)

IMO, it's not that the 18-21 year old youth are "dangerous," but rather that many are stupid as hell...college students or not.
By the time I was 18, I was already a corporal in the USMC and serving in Vietnam. I carried firearms every day...and used them almost every day...but that's a bit different than wet-behind-the-ears kids carrying to school.

 

[mikeford]

Anyplace that decides to be "gun free" should be liable for anything that happens due to disarming people. Take away my ability to defend myself, then you should be responsible for keeping me safe from your silly rules.

 

[Doppel]

Gun free zones strike me as a stupid idea, and since the majority of mass shootings occur in them I think it's safe to say they probably don't work very well.

 

[x-alki]

And this is the exact attitude that is giving ammunition (pardon the pun) to the virulent anti-gun advocates. It also shows a complete lack of common courtesy and paints gun owners as belligerent, self-righteous idiots.

Does it really? No one knows if I am carrying. I have never been "outed" in a gun free zone.

The problem lies in those that carry who are outed, don't leave when asked and get belligerent when asked to leave.

 

[boomhower]

Gun free zones create the perfect place for mass shootings to take place. Want to murder a bunch of people and not worry about anyone shooting back? Head to your local mall or movie theater.

 

[highland145]

The point that I was failing miserably at making is that mass shooters, crazy or not, go for soft targets (gun free zones). Schools/universities, movie theaters, Ft Hood...The Norway attack, reportedly, lasted for more than 1 hour. They are not hitting police stations or other places where they will meet resistance right away. Yes, there are exceptions.

 

[Nebor]

I live on a military post, I'm not allowed to carry, even though I have a permit.

Did you catch the comments from the Commandant of the Marine Corps in which he proposed arming officers and SNCOs that are on duty?

 

[highland145]

Did you catch the comments from the Commandant of the Marine Corps in which he proposed arming officers and SNCOs that are on duty?

It's mind boggling that they aren't already. It's a military base.

 

[rudeguy]

Question for you OP. You state people "choose" to shoot up gun free zones. Do you have any examples that someone chose a location specifically for that reason?

Mass shootings almost always happen in a place the shooter themselves has an attachment, or the person they are targeting initially is in that place.

I do not have any specific examples of that, no.

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my wording, I can see how you would think that was what I was saying. I was saying that the crazies choose to shoot up places. A lot of those times those places are gun free zones. I didn't mean to imply that the wacko did research and chose the target solely because it was a gun free zone.

 

[rudeguy]

I carry for the same reasons rudeguy does except I don't give a rats ass if a business is a gun free zone. I will still carry in those places. Gun free zones signage doesn't carry any weight of the law in Indiana so all they can do is ask you to leave.

Last I checked there still wasn't any case law in Michigan on carrying in a private establishment that had gun free signs. The theory is that a liberal judge could see carrying in one as trespassing and also decide that you used a firearm in the commission of that crime. Its a longshot, but its possible.

The lawyer that did my CPL class even offered us a $5/hour discount if one of us made case law :biggrin:

I just stay away from those places. If they don't want me there, fine.