Lets talk about guns and gun free zones

[rudeguy]

Yea, Gun free zones are silly. And I agree that people have a right, and SHOULD have a right to carry. I do not believe it should be necessary to carry to be able to protect yourself. however, I know life usually throws curveballs and sometimes even spitballs, and rarely even fireballs! So I can appreciate the "better safe than sorry" crowd.

However, I do not think it's cool when any/all possible changes to gun laws are argued before they ere even discussed...

Universal background checks seem like a logical sort of thing.

Having a central "who has what guns" registration seems very beneficial. It would be easier for police to catch some criminals if every single gun was ID'd at time of sale to an owner. (of course there's lots of complications, and lots of people would not be comfortable with the federal government having that data.)

Anyhow, There are some things that I think are rational gun laws.

I think a national CCW standards/permit makes sense rather than each state having their own rules and obeying only certain states licenses ... Each state may have their own rules of the road, but, they all allow you to drive your car with your license from your home state. CCW should be like that IMO.

Not to pick apart you post, but I'm going to pick apart your post:

However, I do not think it's cool when any/all possible changes to gun laws are argued before they ere even discussed...

I'm not sure at all what you are trying to say here.

Universal background checks seem like a logical sort of thing.

Are you saying for every purchase? Even rifles? What about air rifles? What kinds of things should prevent someone from owning a gun? Does this mean we will need to pass a background check to exercise any of our other God given rights?

Having a central "who has what guns" registration seems very beneficial. It would be easier for police to catch some criminals if every single gun was ID'd at time of sale to an owner. (of course there's lots of complications, and lots of people would not be comfortable with the federal government having that data.)

NO. The government is safe to assume everyone has guns since its our right to do so. Please tell me how the police knowing I have a Glock 26 (its registered) would help at all if there was a crime? It won't. And the government has already shown it can't be trusted with ANY data, let alone data it doesn't need. Assume we all have guns.

I think a national CCW standards/permit makes sense rather than each state having their own rules and obeying only certain states licenses ... Each state may have their own rules of the road, but, they all allow you to drive your car with your license from your home state. CCW should be like that IMO.

There are already standards for CCW permits. Most states have recip agreements with other states. There is no need for the federal government to be involved since it is the federal government who says we can have guns. I can already driver from my house to Oregon and legally carry the whole way (if I detour around IL). There is no need for the federal government to do anything.

You are looking to the government to help with a problem that doesn't exist. You have successfully succombed to their brain washing. Please enjoy your Obamaphone.

 

[WackyDan]

I agree with everything you have stated in this post and I don't have a problem with people protecting their homes and businesses with guns. I don't even have a problem with the concept of carrying a gun, I just question the motives of people who want to. I don't want to live in a society where people feel the need to be armed all the time and I certainly don't want to be armed all the time. I am pretty cynical myself. Don't believe all the bullshit and propaganda you read.

The NRA would have you believe that it is this benevolent organization just out to protect your best interests but once you join all they do is ask you for donations, send you bullshit questionaires that are extremely biased, ask for more donations, and give you a free subscription to one of two publications that are basically just full of advertisements and NRA bullshit. I literally found very little in the magazine that was of any use or interest to me personally and found their constant mailers and requests for donations extremely annoying. Talk about junk mail... every week you would get some packet asking you questions and asking for donations and I never made a single donation. I just made the mistake of signing up for a 1 year membership. All they care about is money and power. And they have a shit load of both. I will never support this organization ever again.

I've had my life threatened twice in front of witnesses by a 20 year old substance abuser brandishing a baseball bat. I spoke with his parents and offered to discuss to resolve it civil like with the local PD present. No dice, so I pressed charges. He then started harassing my family for over a week. I went down to the courthouse and filed for a restraining order only to have the judge refuse it on the grounds that the shithead hadn't threatened me enough times. I guess the judge would rather I kill him instead... Fuckers - The restraining order was for HIS protection, not mine.

Needless to say, we videotaped his harassment of my wife and I several times. When I had the local PD come take a look at the recordings I had to by law disclose to them that I was carrying concealed... They already knew I was a CCW holder, but I basically told them I was now carrying 24/7 because of the little asshole. They went after him for felony harassment and intimidating a witness of state. Took several months for it to sort out. I'm still carrying 24/7 as I never know when the little asshole is going to show up again at my house or at the local super market parking lot. There is a back story there obviously, but suffice it to say I was not the instigator.

SO before you judge some people for feeling the need to carry everywhere they can I suggest you think about some very real reasons why they might feel the need to.

 

[Svnla]

In some states, you can not go in with your CCW if they serve alcohol such as Buffalo Wild Wings and such.

The rules from each states are so different. Be careful if you packed.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

*Facepalm* We know why he chose Sandy Hook.

Can you elaborate on that? I've seen nothing but conjecture as to why he choose the school. Relatives claim he was abused there, people seem convinced his mother worked there, others claim it's because it's gun free but I don't recall anything conclusive about his motivation.

 

[rudeguy]

Can you elaborate on that? I've seen nothing but conjecture as to why he choose the school. Relatives claim he was abused there, people seem convinced his mother worked there, others claim it's because it's gun free but I don't recall anything conclusive about his motivation.

that was my point

Its very hard to prove since the shooter usually gets dead.

 

[coxmaster]

I see these signs everywhere now, with a gun image and a red slash through it; something like "Firearms are not permitted".

See this at the library, restaurants like Fridays and McDonalds, the mall, big stores like WalMart and Target, and even a candy store my aunt goes to.

Personally I think these signs are stupid, because only law abiding citizens will respect them. It's like the 'magic bubble' back from my Grateful Dead touring days - the druggies thought being a part of it all made them exempt from being caught. No gun signs are the 'magic bubble' that makes people think they will be safe.

Personally I'm glad I currently live in a state where these signs mean jack shit..

 

[zinfamous]

I carry a gun. A concealed pistol is usually on my person if I have pants on. Sometimes when I don't have pants on but that is a different thread. I carry a gun in case myself, my family or someone else's life is in danger. I want the option available to me to be able to defend myself. I don't hope I get to use my gun in anger.

stopped reading right there. Did you actually mean to suggest that this is a possibility?

I don't think you are responsible enough to own a gun.

 

[irishScott]

stopped reading right there. Did you actually mean to suggest that this is a possibility?

I don't think you are responsible enough to own a gun.

? Using a gun in anger is a popular euphemism for self defense.

 

[rudeguy]

stopped reading right there. Did you actually mean to suggest that this is a possibility?

I don't think you are responsible enough to own a gun.

Yet you still replied. You always make me feel so special :wub:

 

[zinfamous]

Are you saying for every purchase? Even rifles? What about air rifles? What kinds of things should prevent someone from owning a gun? Does this mean we will need to pass a background check to exercise any of our other God given rights?

I recall the NRA and all other gun nutters adamantly declaring that it isn't a gun problem--it's a mental health problem, and that this country needs to focus on mental health and, to that end, guns should be restricted on that basis, according to the NRA (and I agree). So, there's that. Also, "God" gave you no right to own a gun. The Constitution did.

And the government has already shown it can't be trusted with ANY data, let alone data it doesn't need. Assume we all have guns.

Not even remotely true, wrg to "any" data. What the government has shown is that they like to collect massive amounts of data that they should not have access to.
I'm guessing you don't trust their handling of certain types of data because you don't like what certain types of data tell you.
But I tend to agree--I don't see a lot of good that comes from a list of how many and what guns everyone has, and where they are...but at the same time, you will never have legitimate studies without this type of demographic data. You can't possibly support an argument from say, the NRA, that such lists should not exist, while also agreeing with whatever gun-related "studies" they release. Either they are using these exact lists to make reliable studies that you theoretically oppose, or you support faulty studies based on unreliable data.

There are already standards for CCW permits. Most states have recip agreements with other states. There is no need for the federal government to be involved since it is the federal government who says we can have guns. I can already driver from my house to Oregon and legally carry the whole way (if I detour around IL). There is no need for the federal government to do anything.

sort of. In the case where state law rejects federal law, is it not the duty of the Feds to step in and reject what you would likely consider bad gun control laws? Either the fed has jurisdiction or it doesn't--not simply for the times you don't want them to.

You are looking to the government to help with a problem that doesn't exist. You have successfully succombed to their brain washing. Please enjoy your Obamaphone.

Clearly there is a problem with gun violence in this country. No one would debate that. You shouldn't even try to pretend that the problem doesn't exist, so I don't think you meant to type that.

Is the government the answer to the solution? Well, not sure about that. That is worth discussion, however.

 

[zinfamous]

Yet you still replied. You always make me feel so special :wub:

I didn't say I wouldn't reply--I just said I stopped reading right there.

 

[zinfamous]

? Using a gun in anger is a popular euphemism for self defense.

Is this some kinda militia/2nd nation type lingo or something?

Is it legalize? I've never heard of such.

 

[irishScott]

Is this some kinda militia/2nd nation type lingo or something?

Is it legalize? I've never heard of such.

Uh, I've heard it all my life. In everything from common speech to TV shows to movies. To use something in anger means to use it violently/not for training purposes/etc. Using one's gun in self defense is pretty violent.

Perhaps "use in reflexive pant-shitting terror" may be more accurate for many, but it lacks the romance. And hell in certain conceivable scenarios I could see myself getting quite angry in self defense.

 

[rudeguy]

Is this some kinda militia/2nd nation type lingo or something?

Is it legalize? I've never heard of such.

Now you have me wondering where I picked that term up.

I've used it for a long time to differentiate between target practice and self defense. Is it somehow offensive?

:shrug:

 

[rudeguy]

I didn't say I wouldn't reply--I just said I stopped reading right there.

I realize my views are not necessarily how everyone feels. That is why I make threads like this. I like to hear other people's opinions on things. I'm not always right, no matter how much I think I am.

 

[irishScott]

Now you have me wondering where I picked that term up.

I've used it for a long time to differentiate between target practice and self defense. Is it somehow offensive?

:shrug:

I think it might be legalize, I remember hearing it from one of the DAs on Law & Order.

I think he interpreted it to mean that you'd use it aggressively.

 

[rudeguy]

I think it might be legalize, I remember hearing it from one of the DAs on Law & Order.

I think he interpreted it to mean that you'd use it aggressively.

Ahhh...

I googled it and I was using it right. It was a pretty popular book that I've never heard of. I want to say I heard it in a movie. That's where I get most of my lines but I have no idea what one.

Either way I couldn't find anything offensive about so: neener neener neener Zin

 

[zinfamous]

I think it might be legalize, I remember hearing it from one of the DAs on Law & Order.

I think he interpreted it to mean that you'd use it aggressively.

OK, that makes sense. I can see it being an official term based on rather old verbiage.

It sounded to me like "I hope I'm not angry enough to have to use it!" You know, like, blast away some prick for cutting you off.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I've had my life threatened twice in front of witnesses by a 20 year old substance abuser brandishing a baseball bat. I spoke with his parents and offered to discuss to resolve it civil like with the local PD present. No dice, so I pressed charges. He then started harassing my family for over a week. I went down to the courthouse and filed for a restraining order only to have the judge refuse it on the grounds that the shithead hadn't threatened me enough times. I guess the judge would rather I kill him instead... Fuckers - The restraining order was for HIS protection, not mine.

Needless to say, we videotaped his harassment of my wife and I several times. When I had the local PD come take a look at the recordings I had to by law disclose to them that I was carrying concealed... They already knew I was a CCW holder, but I basically told them I was now carrying 24/7 because of the little asshole. They went after him for felony harassment and intimidating a witness of state. Took several months for it to sort out. I'm still carrying 24/7 as I never know when the little asshole is going to show up again at my house or at the local super market parking lot. There is a back story there obviously, but suffice it to say I was not the instigator.

SO before you judge some people for feeling the need to carry everywhere they can I suggest you think about some very real reasons why they might feel the need to.

Well Whacky,

I'm not going to get into your anecdotal evidence of why someone might want to carry a gun but I'm sure some people have a need. I'm just not sure that this is something society needs.

I think CCW holders fall into two categories.

1) People who have been the victim of a crime.
2) Gun nuts who have watched too many Dirty Harry movies or been to too many gun shows/end of the world preparedness conventions.

There are various levels of #2 obviously. If your state makes it easy to get a CCW permit I suspect it would take very little of #2 syndrome to push you to this. I have no idea why anyone would want to burden themselves with being armed all the time. Would be interesting to interview these people to find out their motivations. Might make an interesting psychological study.

 

[IEC]

Well Whacky,

I'm not going to get into your anecdotal evidence of why someone might want to carry a gun but I'm sure some people have a need. I'm just not sure that this is something society needs.

I think CCW holders fall into two categories.

1) People who have been the victim of a crime.
2) Gun nuts who have watched too many Dirty Harry movies or been to too many gun shows/end of the world preparedness conventions.

There are various levels of #2 obviously. If your state makes it easy to get a CCW permit I suspect it would take very little of #2 syndrome to push you to this. I have no idea why anyone would want to burden themselves with being armed all the time. Would be interesting to interview these people to find out their motivations. Might make an interesting psychological study.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and continue to project your own desire to marginalize those who would choose to carry weapons as "gun nuts".

 

[Nebor]

2) Gun nuts who have watched too many Dirty Harry movies or been to too many gun shows/end of the world preparedness conventions.

There are various levels of #2 obviously. If your state makes it easy to get a CCW permit I suspect it would take very little of #2 syndrome to push you to this. I have no idea why anyone would want to burden themselves with being armed all the time. Would be interesting to interview these people to find out their motivations. Might make an interesting psychological study.

I find this fascinating as well. There are tons of people who don't just carry a gun and extra magazines every day, but a backup gun (BUG,) a knife (or two,) and a flashlight. These guys aren't law enforcement, don't live in dangerous areas, and have no particular reason to feel that they're a target. I know plenty of cops that don't carry a gun when they're off duty because they don't feel the need or think it's too much of a hassle.

I can't figure out if it's that they actually think that some sort of crazy Dirty Harry shit is going to go down, or if they're just geardos showing off on gun forums. Obviously they're not a danger to anyone, since they never get in trouble with the law (or anyone for that matter,) so it's not really a behavior that needs to be curtailed. I just find it odd that people would so burden\inconvenience themselves for what amounts to no reason.

What also springs to mind are two recent incidents out in public where some Texas CHL holders were being silly. Going into the state fair, we're in the middle of this throng of people, I'm talking about least 1000 people trying to get tickets or get in the gates. In the middle there's a Dallas cop on a big, tall lifeguard platform chair. As we move up in the line to get tickets, this big fat guy (in 5.11 pants, of course) starts waving a card around at the cop yelling, "I've got a concealed handgun!" The cop looks at him, alarmed, and I half-growl, "shut the fuck up, no one cares," to which he replies, "I'm supposed to tell him!" The cop took his CHL, looked at for .5 seconds and tossed it back at him.

Then when I went to see that Jackass Bad Grandpa movie, they were also opening Carrie, and for whatever reason, doing security checks outside that particular theater (just the one playing Carrie) with metal detectors. Again, some fatty in flannel is like, "What if I have a license to carry a concealed handgun?" And the security guy is like, "Do you have your weapon on you?" And the guy is like, "No, but I could!" And the security guys is like, "Uhh... just go on in then."

I have to wonder if these jackasses aren't the ones carrying rifles around trying to get attention.

 

[WackyDan]

Well Whacky,

I'm not going to get into your anecdotal evidence of why someone might want to carry a gun but I'm sure some people have a need. I'm just not sure that this is something society needs.

I think CCW holders fall into two categories.

1) People who have been the victim of a crime.
2) Gun nuts who have watched too many Dirty Harry movies or been to too many gun shows/end of the world preparedness conventions.

There are various levels of #2 obviously. If your state makes it easy to get a CCW permit I suspect it would take very little of #2 syndrome to push you to this. I have no idea why anyone would want to burden themselves with being armed all the time. Would be interesting to interview these people to find out their motivations. Might make an interesting psychological study.

I already gave you my reasons. You suggest that it would make an interesting psychological study to interview more people like me which implies that you think there is something inherently wrong with our desire to protect ourselves? Why don't you do a psychological study on the kid who went batshit crazy on me with the baseball bat? Maybe do one for my first love's rapist? Perhaps that will tell you all you need to know.

Most people will never feel the need to be armed and I'm happy for them. Most people will never be the victim of a violent crime or credible threat. I'm happy for them.

FYI... I carry a quality folding knife too. I suppose that bumps my crazy up a bit much for you... Why just today I used it to slaughter that amazon box that was delivered to my door and the other day I used it to kill a length of 3.4 braided rope too. Handy fucking things those knives.

Tell you what, you stay in your little loft apartment in the safe side of town and I'll fend for myself out here in the burbs and we both can forget about each other. I'm not harming you in any way so leave me alone is all I (we) ask.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I already gave you my reasons. You suggest that it would make an interesting psychological study to interview more people like me which implies that you think there is something inherently wrong with our desire to protect ourselves? Why don't you do a psychological study on the kid who went batshit crazy on me with the baseball bat?

Too small a sample.

Maybe do one for my first love's rapist? Perhaps that will tell you all you need to know.

Again, too small a sample and I think we already know what motivates rapists. There have been loads of studies on them.

Look, I'm sorry you've been the victim of a crime and I can completely understand your motivation for wanting to carry a gun. I had a bicycle stolen once when I lived in Los Angeles... it was a really nice bike. I've repo'd cars in North Long Beach and South Central LA, driven through areas of Los Angeles that were being looted during the LA riots in the early 90s. There is a lot you can do to minimize risk and I've never encountered a situation in which I needed to use a firearm or even wished I'd had one (other than the riots, I had one in my car with me despite it being illegal for me to carry a loaded handgun at the time-when law and order breaks down and it's every man for himself I'll break that law).

 

[irishScott]

Well Whacky,

I'm not going to get into your anecdotal evidence of why someone might want to carry a gun but I'm sure some people have a need. I'm just not sure that this is something society needs.

I think CCW holders fall into two categories.

1) People who have been the victim of a crime.
2) Gun nuts who have watched too many Dirty Harry movies or been to too many gun shows/end of the world preparedness conventions.

There are various levels of #2 obviously. If your state makes it easy to get a CCW permit I suspect it would take very little of #2 syndrome to push you to this. I have no idea why anyone would want to burden themselves with being armed all the time. Would be interesting to interview these people to find out their motivations. Might make an interesting psychological study.

Hahahaha, wow aren't we painting with broad strokes. Did it ever occur to you that most of us don't see it as a burden? And lest you think that implies irresponsibility, carrying a gun is not driving a car. You don't have to be constantly worrying about it to do it properly, in fact if you are constantly worrying you're doing it wrong. You have to be trained well enough to react properly God forbid you have to use it, but unless you live in a place with a maze of local legalities 99.9% of the time it's a really simple, peaceful process:

1. Put on gun.
2. Forget about gun until end of day.
3. Take off gun.

You view being armed all the time as a constant burden, which automatically assumes paranoia and/or insecurity on the part of the carrier. You're projecting this view onto CCW holders at large, and I can speak from experience that it's simply invalid for most.

I know if I wear my gun to the grocery store, at no point am I thinking about my gun. I'm thinking about buying fucking groceries. I've met a few who may fit the paranoid description, but they're a small minority of those I'm aware of.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Hahahaha, wow aren't we painting with broad strokes. Did it ever occur to you that most of us don't see it as a burden? And lest you think that implies irresponsibility, carrying a gun is not driving a car. You don't have to be constantly worrying about it to do it properly, in fact if you are constantly worrying you're doing it wrong. You have to be trained well enough to react properly God forbid you have to use it, but unless you live in a place with a maze of local legalities 99.9% of the time it's a really simple, peaceful process:

1. Put on gun.
2. Forget about gun until end of day.
3. Take off gun.

You view being armed all the time as a constant burden, which automatically assumes paranoia and/or insecurity on the part of the carrier. You're projecting this view onto CCW holders at large, and I can speak from experience that it's simply invalid for most.

I know if I wear my gun to the grocery store, at no point am I thinking about my gun. I'm thinking about buying fucking groceries. I've met a few who may fit the paranoid description, but they're a small minority of those I'm aware of.

Meh, maybe I am painting a bit. :shrug:

You gun owners have thick skin don't you?

I kind of want to go to the shooting range now. :wub: