"Let's not preorder games anymore..."

[Kalmah]

First and last game i preordered was BF3,got the $60 retail copy from Bestbuy at midnight release,months go by and out comes premium which now we early buyers have to pay to have,while someone now can pay the same $60 you did and get the whole game with premium included.....

I feel the early adopters who did preorder should at least get premium at no charge,discount the current vanilla game to $40 and call it a day.

Yep, I see this happen game after game. Those who pre-order miss out on the discounted extra content that gets released after and end up having to pay even more for them.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

I have only Pre-ordered 2 games. Starcraft 1 on MAC, man that was a painful wait.... Starcraft 2 HotS was the other. I am regretting HotS a bit, simply because the campaign has not gripped me anywhere near the amount that WoL did, but I definitely would have bought it either way unless the reviews gave it something like a 5/10

 

[ImpulsE69]

The last game I preordered was Quake. I'm hardcore (but man..I played the hell outta that).

 

[Zodiark1593]

Only game I ever pre-ordered was Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, though it was solely for the free strategy guide, not mentioning I waited over a year for the game.

 

[GaiaHunter]

I've only pre-purchased GW2 and by then I had seen enough gameplay videos to know I would like it and so access to betas was a bonus.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Whoa, back off your 'disingenuous' comment. That implies deceiving and that's certainly not the case.

Disingenuous might have been too strong of a word, since I don't believe you are intentionally trying to deceive. But I do think you are not seeing the whole picture.

I don't have all the numbers to weigh this, but there are also a lot more games today. Not every game sales millions.

No, but there were games that where failures even in the 80s and 90s. On average games today have an extremely higher sales volume then they did 20 years ago.

Now, I just checked a source on sales, and it listed the top 14 selling PC games; 4 of them are from the 1990's, only three since 2011 (Diablo III, Minecraft, Starcraft II).

Myst sold 6 million copies, for example.

Myst has also had 20 years and been ported to 12 different platforms, including the IPad, to sell games. Diablo III has sold over 12 million copies in 10 months on one platform.

So I don't think you began to completely address the issue - the industry has grown, but prices have fallen while dev costs hav increased, though sales seem up also.

In most markets as we see volume go up we see price go down. I don't know why people think video games should be the exception to this.

 

[ImpulsE69]

In most markets as we see volume go up we see price go down. I don't know why people think video games should be the exception to this.

For the same reasons it shouldn't have a used or rental market, or fair return policy. Think of the devs!! :whiste:

 

[blackened23]

You're still glossing over the fact that preorders in no way help anyone but the storefront selling them. That money doesn't get given to anyone before the game is released. No shortage? No need for preorders. They phased out the need with digital downloads. Storefronts are looking for ways to draw in customers, thus the continuation of "pre-orders".

Sorry, perhaps I mis-spoke. I certainly agree about pre-orders, actually, and I've mentioned this several times. Pre-orders require extreme caution - I personally only pre-order from reliable publishers of which there are extremely few - blizzard being the one I trust. I can't think of anyone else, although I did pre-order Bioshock Infinite as well. Ken Levine is a great producer IMO, i've never been disappointed by his work. I certainly don't pre-order any games from EA, the last one I pre-ordered was BF3 and i'm kind of miffed that I had to pay full price for BF3 and then pay another ridiculous price for premium. Shrug. Anyway, I was speaking more towards the side argument developing regarding demos and such.

 

[Craig234]

In most markets as we see volume go up we see price go down. I don't know why people think video games should be the exception to this.

We're going in circles here - you are not considering the 'whole picture'. Yes, as volume goes up prices can come down - nevermind that bestselling books don't really follow that over 'ok' selling books - but as I said, prices have not gone up (for most games, putting aside the new models like free to pay) not only for inflation, but higher dev costs.

We'd have to get numbers of various things - 'average' numbers of copies sold, as both the number of games sold and made has increased, average cost to develop, etc.

 

[Craig234]

Disingenuous might have been too strong of a word

No might have been about it. But I take your comment to mean you didn't mean that.

 

[darkewaffle]

In most markets as we see volume go up we see price go down. I don't know why people think video games should be the exception to this.

Personally I think new games are cheaper than ever. Borderlands 2 I had the day of release for $40, GW2 I got a 20% discount on days after release, XCOM EU was $40 from day one (I think). Not all new games, but those are some pretty high profile releases.

To me this is fantastic because I remember paying $60-$70 for new N64 cartridges 10-15 years ago. Hell if they were still $60 then the fact that the price hadn't inflated alone would be a boon to customers, the fact that prices have not only decreased but also have all sorts of 'added value' options available is definitely moving in the right direction for those buying games.

 

[Doppel]

Given that MOST media is mediocre, I have to admit the last game I pre-ordered was, unbelievably, 16 years ago. And it was also the first. The single exception to this is Bioshock Infinite. I feel it's going to be a winner, but if the reviews come out and kill it (just seems so unlikely), then I would return the pre-order.

Pre-ordering is an excellent way for a publisher to lock you into a sale before you've had a chance to read a review. This isn't how I live; I never watch a movie without knowing how it was received, nor would I spend money in general on something without an impression from some reviewers. I like to learn from others when I can.

FWIW I think DLC is the biggest scam going. I think I got it once for Fallout 3, that's it. I'm amazed people still buy it considering the cost and what little it adds.

 

[mindcycle]

Given that MOST media is mediocre, I have to admit the last game I pre-ordered was, unbelievably, 16 years ago. And it was also the first. The single exception to this is Bioshock Infinite. I feel it's going to be a winner, but if the reviews come out and kill it (just seems so unlikely), then I would return the pre-order.

Man, Take-Two must be pushing the Bioshock Infinite pre-orders hard! You're about the 10th person to come into this thread claiming they don't pre-order games but they've pre-ordered Bioshock Infinite.

IMO, it still isn't worth it since the game will likely be $30-$35 within a week or two. That and I really don't have any interest in Bioshock, but to each their own..

 

[Craig234]

Given that MOST media is mediocre, I have to admit the last game I pre-ordered was, unbelievably, 16 years ago. And it was also the first. The single exception to this is Bioshock Infinite. I feel it's going to be a winner, but if the reviews come out and kill it (just seems so unlikely), then I would return the pre-order.

Pre-ordering is an excellent way for a publisher to lock you into a sale before you've had a chance to read a review. This isn't how I live; I never watch a movie without knowing how it was received, nor would I spend money in general on something without an impression from some reviewers. I like to learn from others when I can.

FWIW I think DLC is the biggest scam going. I think I got it once for Fallout 3, that's it. I'm amazed people still buy it considering the cost and what little it adds.

I object to DLC because it takes a game from "we'll charge $60 and have 10 areas" to "we'll release the game with 4 areas and quickly discount to $30, and sell 6 dlc's for $60".

It's a way of squeezing money too much.

But I blame customers for pushing companies to do it by not buying the $60 game and instead buying the DLC model.

I suspect DLC is here for a long time.

 

[coloumb]

I don't pre-order games anymore due to the price - I just can't afford to throw away $40+ on a product that I can't return for a refund or re-sell to someone else if I don't like it. Yes...I am a cheap bastard and proud of it. I can wait until a game is priced below $30 before buying it. I can wait until a movie appears on Red Box.

What I do like is the recent trend of "buy this product and receive these other products for "free" - AMD Video cards with free copies of tomb raider/bioshock/etc, STEAM deals of getting a free game when pre-ordering, etc.

What I do not like are DLC's being packaged together in a more expensive product. That crap should be included in the core game.

 

[Regs]

In most markets as we see volume go up we see price go down. I don't know why people think video games should be the exception to this.

Not sure what you mean by this. Video games are not manufactured tangible products, but classified as a service of entertainment. Their variable costs do not go up by distributing more copies of a game. Even when games were copied onto CD's and Cartridges, the costs were negligible. Salaries usually stay the same, and the studio and equipment to develop games stay fixed. Economics of scale, if that is what you are referring to, do not apply when a service industry with mostly fixed costs are involved.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Not sure what you mean by this. Video games are not manufactured tangible products, but classified as a service of entertainment. Their variable costs do not go up by distributing more copies of a game. Even when games were copied onto CD's and Cartridges, the costs were negligible. Salaries usually stay the same, and the studio and equipment to develop games stay fixed. Economics of scale, if that is what you are referring to, do not apply when a service industry with mostly fixed costs are involved.

This is not correct, unless people lied all along. During that time, they said the costs of production of "expensive carts" and distribution to brick and mortor stores as well as the mark up so the stores got their share for selling them were a large portion of the cost of the product.

This is why there is a mentality that things should be cheaper now. They moved to formats and distribution that are a small fraction of the cost they once were.

 

[cmdrdredd]

i reserve games that have a bonus with them that you cannot get without. Posters and the like. Also some reserves have dlc bonuses that you'd otherwise have to pay for. if I'm buying the game anyway...why not? Unless I'm on the fence and really don't know if it'll be any good.

Also to get the collectors edition.

This is not correct, unless people lied all along. During that time, they said the costs of production of "expensive carts" and distribution to brick and mortor stores as well as the mark up so the stores got their share for selling them were a large portion of the cost of the product.

This is why there is a mentality that things should be cheaper now. They moved to formats and distribution that are a small fraction of the cost they once were.

The flip side of the argument is multi-million dollar development costs. Or that's the claim.

Some games I can see the development value. Bungie titles always had content that seemed to be worth the long dev time and cost. Some RPGs (think old Squaresoft with Xenogears, Chrono Trigger etc). Some of today's development is seemingly copy and paste. CoD, Madden etc. There are some studios that still put a ton of effort into their games. Not just the gameplay but the music score, voice acting, and story. Notables may include Kojima Productions(Metal Gear Solid and related titles), Bethesda titles (fallout, skyrim etc), Nintendo (zelda titles mostly for story, extra content, and music)CD Projekt (Witcher), Rockstar (max payne and grand theft auto), Bioware used to be great too, Mass Effect showed a lot of time and effort despite the shortcomings of ME3, Assassin's Creed to an extent.

These games IMO have enough of a package to be considered worth the years of development and money spent. Everyone has different tastes and everyone thinks of things differently when considering value in a game. A game like CoD I consider to have very little and almost no real value unless you just want to mindlessly shoot stuff with no purpose. That's ok for some, not ok for me. I need a little bit more substance.

 

[darkewaffle]

Carts rely on solid state storage. Even holding just a few MB of data wasn't cheap 20 years ago.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Carts rely on solid state storage. Even holding just a few MB of data wasn't cheap 20 years ago.

I remember Super Metroid being advertised as a "32 meg cart!" 32megabit (4MB or so). At least I think it was super metroid.

 

[Remobz]

Pre-ordering made more sense during the retail box days of PC gaming. You pre-ordered the next big game release cause otherwise it would be out of stock and you wouldn't be able to play for a while. That was the culture and what people were used to. Now in the Steam Age we don't do that stuff anymore, so games are only pre-ordered if they come with early beta access and/or cash discounts or bundled items.

True dat!

I never pre-order games but I had to wait for awhile to get some games because they were out of stock.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Personally I think new games are cheaper than ever. Borderlands 2 I had the day of release for $40, GW2 I got a 20% discount on days after release, XCOM EU was $40 from day one (I think). Not all new games, but those are some pretty high profile releases.

I agree, I was not trying to imply otherwise. Even if games were the same dollar value as they were 20 years ago inflation makes them cheaper in value.

Not sure what you mean by this. Video games are not manufactured tangible products, but classified as a service of entertainment. Their variable costs do not go up by distributing more copies of a game. Even when games were copied onto CD's and Cartridges, the costs were negligible. Salaries usually stay the same, and the studio and equipment to develop games stay fixed. Economics of scale, if that is what you are referring to, do not apply when a service industry with mostly fixed costs are involved.

Even services are subject to the economics of scale as long as there is a greater then 1:1 ratio of employees to services rendered. Think about it. If I need 20 people each making 30k a year to make a game and sell 10k units at $60 each I've made $0 gross, If I need 100 people at 30k each to make a game and sell 1 million copies at $6 each I've made $3 million. That is how it scales.

 

[Regs]

I agree, I was not trying to imply otherwise. Even if games were the same dollar value as they were 20 years ago inflation makes them cheaper in value.




Even services are subject to the economics of scale as long as there is a greater then 1:1 ratio of employees to services rendered. Think about it.

If I need 20 people each making 30k a year to make a game and sell 10k units at $60 each I've made $0 gross, If I need 100 people at 30k each to make a game and sell 1 million copies at $6 each I've made $3 million. That is how it scales.

That's all great said and done, but you're assuming all other aspects of production or costs stay the same. To market and promote a product to sell up to 1 million people is not cheap. You also need to hire marketing and sales employees, artists, actors, and even help centers. You might also need translations, and international coverage teams to sell globally and to reach bigger markets.

They are making one product that does not get consumed. They make software and copy it to hell and gone. They could make one billion copies with only one employee, but the odds of that one guy selling 1 billion copies is rather unrealistic.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I haven't preordered anything for a long time. Not going to start now either.

 

[Wreckem]

I agree, and it is doing long term damage to the industry. Gamers have grown up, and the number of games available is making us more discerning buyers. If this trend continues I think there is going to be another crash of the video game market.



While this might be true it is also true that at those prices the industry has went from a small cottage industry were 10k sales was considered a blockbuster to a industry where sales numbers can hit the millions.

So, while I understand that prices has not increased, it is ingenuous to try to claim that these prices are hurting the industry. The video game industry makes more money then any entertainment media other then movies, and if the trend continues it will overtake Hollywood in just a few years. Movies and video games cost similar amounts to make, but no one is paying $60 for The Expendables 2, and they are getting pretty close to having the same sales numbers.

I don't know what decade you are talking about as 10k being blockbusters. Certainly not in the past 2 decades.

Overall the video game industry has been in double digit declines for over two years now. Then just look at PC Gaming. PC Gaming as an industry PEAKED in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and went through MASSIVE decline for most of the 2000s. Yes it did come back close to its peak but it started declining again and projections for PC gaming over the next several years are substaintial declines.

Furthermore, how many studios have gone bankrupt in the past three years? How many publishers? The game industry's success is way over stated. Ask any vetern of the industry(who is most likely no longer in the industry BTW). Volume doesn't equal profit or success. Volume is a meaningless metric.

If the video game industry was as successful as you believe, it wouldn't have the massive unemployment levels and extremely high turnover that it has. Or have a majority of companies posting losses and/or burning millions/hundreds of millions in investor money without ever giving investors a return on their investment.

The mainstream video game industry is in the midst of a crash. How big of crash will be determined by how successful the PS4 and XboxNext launches are. If either launch goes anywhere near as poorly as the Wii U launch it will be a blood bath. Both the PS4 and XboxNext are going to need lights out launches in order to reverse the decline in the industry.