Legacy automakers death watch thread

[ponyo]

You refuted nothing. Don’t be a troll now

I don't need to refute. This is the internet. It will be here for people to see. I'm about to leave the house to enjoy the day so I'm not in the mood to debate. I did get a good laugh out of it.

 

[heymrdj]

I don't need to refute. This is the internet. It will be here for people to see. I'm about to leave the house to enjoy the day so I'm not in the mood to debate. I did get a good laugh out of it.

I’ll see you in 5 years then. Tesla has to:

Brand new, 300 mile plus range, under 25K brand new, compact SUV class
Midsize and half ton class pickup, 6000 and 9000lb towing capacity accordingly. 250 miles plus towing range. Under 35K and 45K accordingly, new of course.
Compact Sedan and/or hatchback, 300 miles plus range, under 20K new.

That matches today’s numbers, and actually gives even higher price tags than what these classes of vehicles are available for. We’ll see what’s available in 5 years and who’s making it. Thanks for the lols. I thought the big 3 lovers got down on their knees to worship their trucks, but you take the cake on worshiping an individual.

 

[Arkaign]

Battery costs are going down every year and batteries and techs are only getting better. In couple years, BEV will be much cheaper to make than ICE vehicles. I suspect really cheap BEV will be made for world market at Shanghai Gigafactory by Tesla China team. Think of it as Model 2 and sub $25k car. It'll happen.

I hope you're right. Battery tech stalling has been agonizing. Lithium Ion is an environmental nightmare, so I'm ready for something epic to come and take us to the real 21st century of vehicles. Unless you're wealthy, to be honest there's not much to separate the last 20 years of vehicles really, other than cramming them full of extraneous gizmos and bulking the average car into a bit of a porker.

I think a model 1 'Kei' car style for about $12k could be incredibly successful in Asian and Euro markets if done right. A 2 seater with ~175mi range and a modular rear cargo box that could be configured in various ways.

Maybe sell the 2 and smaller units under a different brand name. Different price structure, focused on mass affordability and reach, but with notably less luxury and prestige vs the 3+. It could keep Tesla as a place Musk could make unique flagship creations without having the brand diluted by the cheap stuff, and likewise the other brand name could become extremely valuable by association and having access to world class EV technology.

 

[Torn Mind]

It's truly important to examine things model by model, and sometimes you just get plain unlucky.

With Ford, the Focus 2012+ got a new DCT, which has been absolutely plagued by issues and failures. The manual transmission units on the other hand are quite good overall. This resulted in massive financial impact against Ford in a segment not all that profitable to begin with, and it seems they took the wrong lessons from that by choosing to abadon the car segment entirely in lieu of more profitable heavier and more expensive/less efficient trucks and SUVs.

That kind of thinking I think makes them unbelievably vulnerable to any significant market corrections that will inevitably occur at some point down the line. Indeed this very year might see a market implosion of sorts. It's a bad situation even when you're prepared, but if customers are suddenly running away from guzzlers and $40-$80k Trucks and SUVs, your company is going to look pretty damn idiotic in that scenario, without even a fallback revenue maker. Adding to that a sort of mini-subprime time bomb to go with it by being so closely tied to the finance side of it. Yes, in good times you can fatten those CEO zeros, but the flip side is that if a large enough percentage of those people you've sold 5, 6, and even 8 year notes on overpriced guzzlers to can't or won't pay the notes, then you're holding a triple whammy :

I don’t think Ford giving up in the segment is an irrational choice at all. They’ve been fighting the stigma of their sedans being inferior for 40 years and managed to keep making cars that cause issues for people who just want appliance grade reliability. Meanwhile, the Corolla during that time has been mostly consistent in being a worry-free appliance. The Civic had one major problem generation with tranny issues but nothing too egregious before and after.

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LOL, are you really comparing an econobox to the gold standard of reliability (Toyota)? At any rate, I'm pretty sure Camrys are made in Kentucky (and Honda Accords have been made in Marysville, OH for decades). Most cars sold in the U.S. are made by American workers, but some foreign makes are indeed imported.

The problem for Detroit is they never figured out how to profitably make a small car. The big 3 came a long way in the past 15 years, esp. since The Great Recession allowed them to shed a lot of legacy debt. Their passenger cars are probably better than ever, but so is the competition! But if they can't make any money selling a Cruze, obviously they'll have to cut some corners making it. Ultimately, Detroit is abandoning passenger cars completely, which is lame, but purely a business decision.

Corollas are econoboxes. They just happen to be built to avoid repair shop hell. They also can kill a back and thighs and cause hearing loss because of crappy sound insulation.

 

[Arkaign]

TLDR : Our economy is on a collision course with the now inevitable wildfire of death and misery that is the Coronavirus. What I had thought was just another SARS or Mers or similar is so SO much worse. Thus : Ford is fooooooked. RIP.

Well, with COVID-19 turning out to be much, much, much worse than initially believed (the combo of walking/globetrotting asymptomatic infections carriers + lengthy incubation + particulate airborne transmission + water/wasteborne aerosolization transmission + devastating endgame symptoms that crush medical resources), we have a situation where China is on fire, the Korea's are headed down, Japan is seeing rapid rise, Iran is literally on the brink at the moment due to infected leadership and major hospitals being quarantined death zones, and on and on, welp, I no longer think we're going to delay the recession.

This new virus is based on H1N1 archetype, only it's worse in every single respect compared to the 1918 H1N1 Spanish Flu. Deadlier, more effective transmission and traveling factors, higher morbidity even with access to upper tier medical resources, and its like watching a slow motion explosion. Italy had no known cases until exposure to an Iranian traveler very recently, now they have gone from 0 to 50+, which will skyrocket very stealthily at first.

The genie is out of the bottle, and it's one mean ass motherfucker. Even quarantining the existing known infected would be pointless due to the potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of currently asymptomatic carriers that will emerge over the next 10-21 days. Just a geometric March burning a hole through the world's population and economy just like ol 1918 did (only even harder to survive despite 102 years of 'progress'). We missed the chance to possibly quarantine China. Cat's out of the bag and "It's going to be a bad time".

I guess when I think about it in these terms, it probably wouldn't have mattered if they had reinvented their passenger cars into affordable winners anyway. This kind of impact on the modern co-dependent globalized production, trade, and banking infrastructure is beyond comprehension. In 1918 most of the food, supplies, clothes, shoes, fuel, etc came from not far from where you lived. Hell we lived through eras where China and later Japan, Germany, etc were brought down to basically zero on the economic scale, and it didn't mean really anything other than more trade opportunities for our manufacturing base. But in 2020? If this catches widespread in North and South America to go with the shitstorm swelling up internationally? Haha. Hold on and just watch how civil people are under their cloaks of society, when most people aren't sure if they will be able to buy gas or food. It might look something like that movie 'The Road', but less cheerful and carefree.

 

[Greenman]

So Ford is dead because of a pandemic. Toyota will be fine because people die slower in smaller cars?

 

[Arkaign]

So Ford is dead because of a pandemic. Toyota will be fine because people die slower in smaller cars?

Hahaha no, I believe Toyota and indeed basically every major business on Earth will get knocked around a bit by this problem. Outright dead though? Ford for sure.

 

[ultimatebob]

I’ll see you in 5 years then. Tesla has to:

Brand new, 300 mile plus range, under 25K brand new, compact SUV class
Midsize and half ton class pickup, 6000 and 9000lb towing capacity accordingly. 250 miles plus towing range. Under 35K and 45K accordingly, new of course.
Compact Sedan and/or hatchback, 300 miles plus range, under 20K new.

That matches today’s numbers, and actually gives even higher price tags than what these classes of vehicles are available for. We’ll see what’s available in 5 years and who’s making it. Thanks for the lols. I thought the big 3 lovers got down on their knees to worship their trucks, but you take the cake on worshiping an individual.

I'd like to say "Let's come back in 2025 and see if this post came true!", but I have a hunch that Anandtech Forums might not be around anymore by then

Legacy automakers might not be in death watch mode yet, but this forum probably is.

 

[zinfamous]

Well, if Ford buys the farm in a ludicrously self-inflicted doomsday scenario should the economy bend into recession this year, then perhaps Musk can buy up the remains and create a mass market company in his streamlined thought process and make a better, more rational FoMoCo.

yeah, Ford makes no sense to me. They were the only US automaker that didn't take bailout money, because they were the only one of them that had already set a 10-20 year plan to deploy EV vehicles and an automated fleet...well, that was the plan. Their ~20 year partnership with Mazda really improved their long-term perception of making shit cars (80s through the 90s), and their Focus and Fusion line was a great car that was reasonably competitive with what Toyota and Honda were making. You had the choice of either a Focus, Fusion, Mazda 3 or 6, any trim...they were all basically the same car. This made them far more competitive than the other garbage US manufacturers. They actually made vehicles that worked, and they cared about dependability.

I was long planning to buy a Focus ST last year, new, because I was very happy with Ford for establishing itself as the only relevant, modern, US car company. The rest were(are) dogshit. ...but then they went stupid, exactly last year (I guess the plan had been there for some time, but they went public with their decision to stop making cars, and essentially abandon their future roadmap to be actually relevant 10 years from now, for the sake of ~5 years of mediocre stability....what a fucking horrible decision).

Screw Ford, really.

 

[ponyo]

yeah, Ford makes no sense to me. They were the only US automaker that didn't take bailout money, because they were the only one of them that had already set a 10-20 year plan to deploy EV vehicles and an automated fleet...well, that was the plan. Their ~20 year partnership with Mazda really improved their long-term perception of making shit cars (80s through the 90s), and their Focus and Fusion line was a great car that was reasonably competitive with what Toyota and Honda were making. You had the choice of either a Focus, Fusion, Mazda 3 or 6, any trim...they were all basically the same car. This made them far more competitive than the other garbage US manufacturers. They actually made vehicles that worked, and they cared about dependability.

I was long planning to buy a Focus ST last year, new, because I was very happy with Ford for establishing itself as the only relevant, modern, US car company. The rest were(are) dogshit. ...but then they went stupid, exactly last year (I guess the plan had been there for some time, but they went public with their decision to stop making cars, and essentially abandon their future roadmap to be actually relevant 10 years from now, for the sake of ~5 years of mediocre stability....what a fucking horrible decision).

Screw Ford, really.

This is not totally true. On June 23, 2009, Ford received a $5.9 billion loan from the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. Basically Ford said they would use this money to develop hybrids and electric vehicles. This is what Ford promised the government so they could borrow this money, Instead, Ford took this money and used it to fund their ICE technologies and to develop their aluminum body F-series trucks. Basically, Ford lied and only small portion of this $5.9 billion government loan was spent on green technologies. Ford has yet to pay back the government the $5.9 billion it borrowed.

Tesla is the only US automaker that paid back the loan from the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. GM, Ford, Chrysler have yet to paid back any of their loan. All three companies lied and used the money not to develop new green technologies but rather for ICE developments. Tesla is the only US automaker that used the government loan as intended and the only one who paid back the government loan in full with interest.

Here's Tesla press release after they paid back the government loan.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-loan-nine-years-early

 

[Torn Mind]

yeah, Ford makes no sense to me. They were the only US automaker that didn't take bailout money, because they were the only one of them that had already set a 10-20 year plan to deploy EV vehicles and an automated fleet...well, that was the plan. Their ~20 year partnership with Mazda really improved their long-term perception of making shit cars (80s through the 90s), and their Focus and Fusion line was a great car that was reasonably competitive with what Toyota and Honda were making. You had the choice of either a Focus, Fusion, Mazda 3 or 6, any trim...they were all basically the same car. This made them far more competitive than the other garbage US manufacturers. They actually made vehicles that worked, and they cared about dependability.

I was long planning to buy a Focus ST last year, new, because I was very happy with Ford for establishing itself as the only relevant, modern, US car company. The rest were(are) dogshit. ...but then they went stupid, exactly last year (I guess the plan had been there for some time, but they went public with their decision to stop making cars, and essentially abandon their future roadmap to be actually relevant 10 years from now, for the sake of ~5 years of mediocre stability....what a fucking horrible decision).

Screw Ford, really.

Mazda and Ford broke up by the time the Focus and Fusion started moving.

This is not totally true. On June 23, 2009, Ford received a $5.9 billion loan from the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. Basically Ford said they would use this money to develop hybrids and electric vehicles. This is what Ford promised the government so they could borrow this money, Instead, Ford took this money and used it to fund their ICE technologies and to develop their aluminum body F-series trucks. Basically, Ford lied and only small portion of this $5.9 billion government loan was spent on green technologies. Ford has yet to pay back the government the $5.9 billion it borrowed.

Tesla is the only US automaker that paid back the loan from the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. GM, Ford, Chrysler have yet to paid back any of their loan. All three companies lied and used the money not to develop new green technologies but rather for ICE developments. Tesla is the only US automaker that used the government loan as intended and the only one who paid back the government loan in full with interest.

Here's Tesla press release after they paid back the government loan.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-loan-nine-years-early

Ford is on track to pay back the loan in 2022, and that means more interest money for the federal government. Not sure why you're treating business actions of Tesla as some sort of ethical high ground. Lesson #1 of business: every businessman or woman has a few skeletons in their closet. The nature of the beast is that a dead company is just that, dead.

 

[manly]

Corollas are econoboxes. They just happen to be built to avoid repair shop hell. They also can kill a back and thighs and cause hearing loss because of crappy sound insulation.

My point is that comparing an average econobox to the highest quality auto manufacturer isn't a fair fight. I personally don't appreciate American passenger cars (whichever still exist), but a few of them get decent ratings. The Fusion hybrid I drove in autumn 2018 had no power, and I didn't like it at all. Good but not great fuel efficiency considering the hybrid powertrain.

yeah, Ford makes no sense to me. They were the only US automaker that didn't take bailout money, because they were the only one of them that had already set a 10-20 year plan to deploy EV vehicles and an automated fleet...well, that was the plan.

The sole reason Ford Motor Co. didn't take a TARP bailout is because their CEO mortgaged all their assets in the years preceding the mortgage crisis. Even so, it kind of didn't really matter. If TARP hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, many of Ford's suppliers would have also collapsed and brought Ford down as well.

 

[Torn Mind]

My point is that comparing an average econobox to the highest quality auto manufacturer isn't a fair fight. I personally don't appreciate American passenger cars (whichever still exist), but a few of them get decent ratings. The Fusion hybrid I drove in autumn 2018 had no power, and I didn't like it at all. Good but not great fuel efficiency considering the hybrid powertrain.


The sole reason Ford Motor Co. didn't take a TARP bailout is because their CEO mortgaged all their assets in the years preceding the mortgage crisis. Even so, it kind of didn't really matter. If TARP hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, many of Ford's suppliers would have also collapsed and brought Ford down as well.

Given the popularity of Honda and Toyota, they are the "average" econobox. The others are worse imitations.
Toyota is the one of the most durable manufacturers. But as far as quality and being bleeding edge, they're not always there. Even with their driveline durability and mostly solid electrical, they do cut corners a few things here and there. Toyota left the ground cable on the 2003-2008 Matrixes with a mere exposed crimp job. Door gaskets can fail.

 

[Greenman]

yeah, Ford makes no sense to me. They were the only US automaker that didn't take bailout money, because they were the only one of them that had already set a 10-20 year plan to deploy EV vehicles and an automated fleet...well, that was the plan. Their ~20 year partnership with Mazda really improved their long-term perception of making shit cars (80s through the 90s), and their Focus and Fusion line was a great car that was reasonably competitive with what Toyota and Honda were making. You had the choice of either a Focus, Fusion, Mazda 3 or 6, any trim...they were all basically the same car. This made them far more competitive than the other garbage US manufacturers. They actually made vehicles that worked, and they cared about dependability.

I was long planning to buy a Focus ST last year, new, because I was very happy with Ford for establishing itself as the only relevant, modern, US car company. The rest were(are) dogshit. ...but then they went stupid, exactly last year (I guess the plan had been there for some time, but they went public with their decision to stop making cars, and essentially abandon their future roadmap to be actually relevant 10 years from now, for the sake of ~5 years of mediocre stability....what a fucking horrible decision).

Screw Ford, really.

I wonder what drove that decision? Was it simply that they make so much on F150 SUV's that they couldn't justify building cars anymore? While they sell a metric shitton of them, they last for hundreds of thousands of miles, so I wouldn't think the replacement market would be all that big.

 

[ondma]

Mazda and Ford broke up by the time the Focus and Fusion started moving.

Ford is on track to pay back the loan in 2022, and that means more interest money for the federal government. Not sure why you're treating business actions of Tesla as some sort of ethical high ground. Lesson #1 of business: every businessman or woman has a few skeletons in their closet. The nature of the beast is that a dead company is just that, dead.

Yea, everybody should fail to pay back their loans so they can pay more interest. Great financial plan.
I went back and read some articles about the break up of Ford and Mazda. Ironically, the sentiment at the time was that Mazda would be hurt more than Ford. Ford may be making more short term profits with their trucks and SUVs, but I like Mazda's line up much better than Ford's. Mazda also has a new engine technology (gasoline compression ignition) that could be a huge advance.

 

[ondma]

Given the popularity of Honda and Toyota, they are the "average" econobox. The others are worse imitations.
Toyota is the one of the most durable manufacturers. But as far as quality and being bleeding edge, they're not always there. Even with their driveline durability and mostly solid electrical, they do cut corners a few things here and there. Toyota left the ground cable on the 2003-2008 Matrixes with a mere exposed crimp job. Door gaskets can fail.

Actually, although the Civic is a very nice car to drive, Honda reliability has slipped somewhat recently. Toyota is still the gold standard though, although their cars are rather bland.

 

[Torn Mind]

Yea, everybody should fail to pay back their loans so they can pay more interest. Great financial plan.
I went back and read some articles about the break up of Ford and Mazda. Ironically, the sentiment at the time was that Mazda would be hurt more than Ford. Ford may be making more short term profits with their trucks and SUVs, but I like Mazda's line up much better than Ford's. Mazda also has a new engine technology (gasoline compression ignition) that could be a huge advance.

Ford is actually hurting on the long term bottom line and the government is pleased. It’s the defaulters that make lenders frown.

I believe 2022 is actually on schedule.
Anyone who leases is doing the exact same thing as Ford. Lining the pockets of the seller of the loan long term to enjoy short term cash flow.

 

[Greenman]

Ford is actually hurting on the long term bottom line and the government is pleased. It’s the defaulters that make lenders frown.

I believe 2022 is actually on schedule.
Anyone who leases is doing the exact same thing as Ford. Lining the pockets of the seller of the loan long term to enjoy short term cash flow.

I thought Ford was sitting on thirty billion dollars?

 

[bigi]

To put a time frame on all of this is hard. Nobody knows when exactly BMW/GM/MB/others go south.

Civilization has ridden this fossil fuels train for too long. Motor companies have invented very little. All have been adding silly iPad like gadgets for past 15 years or so. Only, colors, badges and plastic parts change. People like a blind flock keep buying crappy cars no matter the price.

We've gone to a level when a college grad can't afford a car. If they do buy one the budget is stretched beyond repair.

Fossil fuels get heavily subsidized by our money. Hardly anybody talks about it. Ignorance is a bliss, again.

The average car cost 30-40K at the dealer, but actually the total price is 150K due to fuel subsidies, which we all pay for.

Due to sticking to fossil fuels for so long, a lot of progress that would have happened by now has been delayed by 100+ years. This is terrible.

The real media does not exist. All 'media' is owned by a few that can push any type of information down our throats. Most people have no clue about very many things - cars included.

GM and others have been bailed out already. Ford got barely w/out one.

There is a lot of talking but not much doing from the big mouths. They have to keep their ICE cars going while developing an EV platforms. It is expensive and not sustainable.

So far, nothing really has challenged Tesla. All of the eTrons and others had their production stopped due to battery constrains.

Tesla has been killing everybody with their Model 3 sales. BMW/MB/others have felt it very much.
Model Y is going to obliterate the rest. The cybertruck, the truck and roadster are due very soon.

FSD will happen quite soon as well. Supercharger network is here to stay.

The current ICE shops have nothing to offer. Most aren't even willing to compete.

Is it 5, 10 years? Will it happen? It has to if we are here to stay.

Finally, my vote goes to BMW, unless govt bails them out.

 

[Torn Mind]

To put a time frame on all of this is hard. Nobody knows when exactly BMW/GM/MB/others go south.

Civilization has ridden this fossil fuels train for too long. Motor companies have invented very little. All have been adding silly iPad like gadgets for past 15 years or so. Only, colors, badges and plastic parts change. People like a blind flock keep buying crappy cars no matter the price.

We've gone to a level when a college grad can't afford a car. If they do buy one the budget is stretched beyond repair.

Fossil fuels get heavily subsidized by our money. Hardly anybody talks about it. Ignorance is a bliss, again.

The average car cost 30-40K at the dealer, but actually the total price is 150K due to fuel subsidies, which we all pay for.

Due to sticking to fossil fuels for so long, a lot of progress that would have happened by now has been delayed by 100+ years. This is terrible.

The real media does not exist. All 'media' is owned by a few that can push any type of information down our throats. Most people have no clue about very many things - cars included.

GM and others have been bailed out already. Ford got barely w/out one.

There is a lot of talking but not much doing from the big mouths. They have to keep their ICE cars going while developing an EV platforms. It is expensive and not sustainable.

So far, nothing really has challenged Tesla. All of the eTrons and others had their production stopped due to battery constrains.

Tesla has been killing everybody with their Model 3 sales. BMW/MB/others have felt it very much.
Model Y is going to obliterate the rest. The cybertruck, the truck and roadster are due very soon.



FSD will happen quite soon as well. Supercharger network is here to stay.

The current ICE shops have nothing to offer. Most aren't even willing to compete.

Is it 5, 10 years? Will it happen? It has to if we are here to stay.

Finally, my vote goes to BMW, unless govt bails them out.

Electric is a way of the city dwellers to delude themselves into thinking they have saved something while living on land that has been plowed up and covered more than thrice and no longer inhabited by the wild fauna and flora that used to be there. In addition, the residentials are practically clueless at the "commercial" uses of oil. That Amazon Prime order someone young hottie in LA makes probably pissed its fair share of diesel into the air on its way there.

In fact, cars have three fossil fuel consumables. Gas/diesel, lube, and tires. Electrics still need lube and tires, but not gas. Instead, fuel comes from the means of electrical production, which could be renewable or it could be coal.

People can't afford Corollas fresh out of college? Perhaps financial education or choosing a degree for the money first should have been emphasized before they spent money on a degree that doesn't provide sufficient return on investment. And take the advice of buying "young pre-owned" cars instead of the newest car on the block.

 

[ponyo]

Whole lot has changed very quickly since I first started this thread. Coronavirus has wrecked havoc on the world economies. Most of the legacy automakers are in big trouble now and governments around the world will likely bailout and support them and also rollback many of the emission penalties. I'm pretty sure EU will delay the penalty for this year that was supposed to go in effect so Daimler, BMW, Fiat, and VW can survive this economic downturn. South Korea just announced today they will be financially backing Hyundai during this economic slump. Ford fully drew down $15.4 billion from 2 credit lines and suspended its dividend payments. GM also drew down $16 billion from its revolving credit facilities today. Both Ford and GM 5 year Credit Default Swap (CDS) are pricing in about 45% to 49% chance for default and bankruptcy. CDS is basically protection insurance investors buy in case company defaults.

 

[heymrdj]

And Tesla just took a 12% stock target cut and posted a $862 million loss last year. Interesting you don’t post that information. Ford alone still managed to move 100,000+ more vehicles in a single quarter ONLY in the USA last year than what Tesla even hopes to achieve this year in an entire year. That’s not even counting their global sales.

This is simply the big 3 leveraging other people’s money in preparation for a very long recession, which we are definitely sinking into. Meanwhile Tesla’s manufacturing has been brought to a halt by the virus shutdowns while the big 3 are sitting in stock. Size will do that.

 

[bigi]

^ TSLA stock today is @ Jan 17, 2020 levels. Tesla had been prepared for recession for a long time. Giga Shanghai has been operational for the whole time.

While Boeing has gone to shit, Ford is hardly alive, GM shows empty batteries and imaginary cars, Tesla is producing and expanding still.

Giga Berlin is on schedule.

 

[heymrdj]

^ TSLA stock today is @ Jan 17, 2020 levels. Tesla had been prepared for recession for a long time. Giga Shanghai has been operational for the whole time.

While Boeing has gone to shit, Ford is hardly alive, GM shows empty batteries and imaginary cars, Tesla is producing and expanding still.

Giga Berlin is on schedule.

But yet the stock still had to take a cut from projections.

Not sure what Boeing has to do with anything, TSLA isn’t making flying 400 passenger jumbo jets electric. Unless you have evidence of that accomplishment in 5 years? Unless you’re just talking about stock market. I’m not concerned at all with current stock, the current stock market isn’t worth discussing. People panicking and leveraging other people’s money on hedge bets when they believe they can pull the parachute before someone else does when the pyramid crumbles are some of the most worthless human beings alive. I don’t care about TSLA or Ford’s overvaluation.

Unless you have a recent report proving otherwise, I haven’t seen any evidence that the February work stoppage did not hurt the Berlin deadline. Only conjecture.

Also, you didn’t address stock. Production is being stopped across most of the manufacturers due to regional shelter in place requirements. If my company needed a fleet car right now, could I walk into TSLA and take one home today? I can do that at Ford, Chevy, Nissan, Honda, Kia, Hyundai? How long is TSLA prepared to not manufacture any cars? Weeks? Months?

 

[jlee]

But yet the stock still had to take a cut from projections.

Not sure what Boeing has to do with anything, TSLA isn’t making flying 400 passenger jumbo jets electric. Unless you have evidence of that accomplishment in 5 years? Unless you’re just talking about stock market. I’m not concerned at all with current stock, the current stock market isn’t worth discussing. People panicking and leveraging other people’s money on hedge bets when they believe they can pull the parachute before someone else does when the pyramid crumbles are some of the most worthless human beings alive. I don’t care about TSLA or Ford’s overvaluation.

Unless you have a recent report proving otherwise, I haven’t seen any evidence that the February work stoppage did not hurt the Berlin deadline. Only conjecture.

Also, you didn’t address stock. Production is being stopped across most of the manufacturers due to regional shelter in place requirements. If my company needed a fleet car right now, could I walk into TSLA and take one home today? I can do that at Ford, Chevy, Nissan, Honda, Kia, Hyundai? How long is TSLA prepared to not manufacture any cars? Weeks? Months?

Yes. https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new/m3