Leave MT car in gear when braking, or go to neutral?

[Ferzerp]

This thread makes my head hurt with all the wrongness.

 

[exdeath]

I'll destroy a clutch well before I wear out a throwout bearing.

Quit doing burnouts and launches :awe:

 

[pauldun170]

This thread makes my head hurt with all the wrongness.

You want to list out the wrongness?

 

[sze5003]

Same argument my roommate in college was make to me. He got a 4 year degree in automotive mechanic something or other. Anyway i have still downshifted unless i am doing a fast stop and so far have not had any issues with engines in my 3 manual cars.

My mom would say something about being in neutral is illegal but i never confirmed that.

Really ? Being in neutral is illegal ? Is that state dependant ? I know on my bike I never stay in neutral at a light but car, yeah why not...why hold the clutch in like that ?

 

[JCH13]

Same argument my roommate in college was make to me. He got a 4 year degree in automotive mechanic something or other. Anyway i have still downshifted unless i am doing a fast stop and so far have not had any issues with engines in my 3 manual cars.

My mom would say something about being in neutral is illegal but i never confirmed that.

I recall the same thing from driver's ed... that going downhill in neutral was illegal, but was unable to confirm also.

Also, silly roommate...

1) Forces are lower than when the engine is under power
2) Engagement is on the opposite gear tooth faces as when under power, so a different part of the transmission is wearing than when it's under power
3) I would love to see one transmission failure that was attributed to excessive downshifting

 

[jlee]

Really ? Being in neutral is illegal ? Is that state dependant ? I know on my bike I never stay in neutral at a light but car, yeah why not...why hold the clutch in like that ?

Coasting in neutral is indeed illegal in NH. Not sure about other states.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Brake pads and rotors are A LOT less expensive to replace than a transmission.

 

[LTC8K6]

Most states that have the coasting law are referring to steep downgrades, where only an idiot would be in neutral, anyway.

 

[sze5003]

Most states that have the coasting law are referring to steep downgrades, where only an idiot would be in neutral, anyway.

Worst thing to do going downhill without any power engaged in the wheels ...good luck lol

 

[Ketchup]

I spent about 10 years driving manuals. I always would shift down when slowing down (never below 2nd), and my brakes lasted forever. Usually put it in neutral at stop lights, except for the short ones when going through downtown. Usually in neutral when going down hill.

Never had a clutch replaced while I drove one either. But one interesting clutch replacement came from a '98 Mustang. It was bought used, so it had a few miles on it when we bought it (can't remember the exact number.) My wife drove the car, and she started complaining about the clutch. Sure enough, it was just above gone. I started driving it after that (got a larger car for her and the kids) and went over 100k miles, never had another clutch issue with it.

So if I ever find out what the first owner did to kill that thing, I will let y'all know.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Your GF is not entirely wrong and neither are you. Her way isn't going to hurt anything but nor is it going to make the car last any longer either. Nor is your way unless you ride the clutch halfway in or out.

As for clutch wear and throw out bearings your throw out bearing will easily outlast your clutch as long as you aren't riding the clutch or doing lots of burnouts or powershiting. If you are doing that your clutch won't last long though either. Still, throw out bearings are not expensive so it probably isn't a bad idea to replace them when you replace your clutch as a general rule of thumb anyway.

 

[el-Capitan]

I always have a gear engaged. I down shift to say 3-2, foot on brake pedal , clutch down towards the light. Stop. Shift to 1. Clutch remains down while i wait for the light.

Having a gear in at all times has made a number of calls a lot less close, e.g. running into the emergency lane if the guy behind me is texting or finally jumping into that faster moving lane because there is a brief opening.

 

[Murloc]

your gf is so retarded, in Europe almost everybody drives stick and I've never seen anybody doing that.
If you're going down a slope, you put a lower gear and leave the car brake itself without using the brake. No gas gets used this way if it's a modern car, and no wear on the brakes. Plus nothing happens to the clutch. Clutches get consumed because people use them incorrectly (like not pressing all the way or using it incorrectly when starting on a slope or doing maneuvers).
I heard that it's illegal to drive on neutral too, besides it being really stupid because you will be there pressing brakes for the whole descent like an idiot when you could just let the motor do the job.

If you're slowing down on flat land, if you're going for a full stop, press the clutch and keep it pressed and brake, then insert first gear when you're stopped or neutral if you don't want to keep it pressed e.g. at a light (actually, you could stop the motor completely).
If you're just slowing down on flatland, downshift and brake, if you were going really fast skip gears, so you like come at a place where you have to yield in second gear and going slow.

 

[ProchargeMe]

It depends on where you at, what you're doing and how long you're planning on doing it. I'll put my car in neutral and brake if I'm coming up to a light i know I'm going to be at for a while, but if i know it's quick or it might change by the time i get there i downshift. Honestly i use a mixture of both, I'll downshift to 2nd gear and then put it in neutral, etc.

 

[Murloc]

It depends on where you at, what you're doing and how long you're planning on doing it. I'll put my car in neutral and brake if I'm coming up to a light i know I'm going to be at for a while, but if i know it's quick or it might change by the time i get there i downshift. Honestly i use a mixture of both, I'll downshift to 2nd gear and then put it in neutral, etc.

yeah this, it depends on what you want to do.

@neocpp use the yellow light or the pedestrian light going red as a cue.
Unless you're the first car, you should see the column moving.
With a manual you will never start rolling as fast as with an automatic unless you are already on the clutch with the gear in, so you have to anticipate.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I'm generally always in gear until maybe 5-10mph or so when I know I'm gonna stop. If I've come down lazily from fifth, a little sooner to keep it from stalling.

In flowing traffic on a 45-55mph road with copious lights, I usually can avoid stopping with proper timing. First gear annoys me, I try to stay in second or higher, so I often approach lights slowly under engine braking. Good to remember to tap your brake pedal just enough to trip your brake lights if you're, say, in decel in high 3rd or 4th gear...i.e. engine braking hard enough to slow yourself at least the amount many people in autos do by riding their brakes. I've heard screeches behind me before because some 'tard was just watching for brakelights and paying attention to nothing else.

I don't downshift, though. If I'm not gonna be accelerating in that gear, I'm not gonna shift into it. So complete stop = whatever gear I'm crusing in until the revs get close to a thousand, then clutch in, neutral, first when stopped.

My brakes last plenty long. On average-wearing cars (maybe 20k-40k generally, depending on driver) I usually get 50-60k or more out of a set of front pads. That's hard stops, too. Just don't ride the brakes or go into neutral when you don't need to. But eff adding wear to my synchros with unneeded downshifts.

This. /thread.

ZV

 

[jhu]

I don't think it really matters. Do whatever you want. You'll probably get rid of it before its useful life is over.

I've had my car since it was new in 2008, and depending on the situation I'll brake in gear or in neutral (although I'm pretty sure that I brake in neutral more often than in gear). Still have plenty of brake pad left on the front and back pads.

 

[thedarkwolf]

Well just to be an ass. My 95 miata has a noisy throwout bearing with 163k miles on it. I just pulled the engine and trans out of it to swap in another drive train and looked at the old clutch and it looks great but bad throwout bearing.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

OP I also downshift to slow down, just because i like the sound and feel. I also assist with the brake just so people behind me can know that I am slowing down. I really dont see how it could cause excessive wear and tear on anything.

Downshifting is kind of an art form. If you can do it so that your passengers head isnt constantly jerking forward and backwards, then you are doing it right. Practice smooth shifting with a marble in a bowl. The less you make the marble move from front to back, the smoother you are shifting. Its hard to notice the jerkiness of your own driving.
Rev matching is key as it will prevent the majority of jerk.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7JqgBRLXho

EDIT: No, that is not me.

 

[SSSnail]

To clarify, unless I'm driving aggressively, there's no need for me to rev match or downshift, so just come to a slow, take it out of gear and wait for the light to turn after sipping. If stop sign, then into second after the same process. Why work harder? Unless I'm on a hill... That's a whole other subject.

So, there's not really one answer for must of the situations, but from a pure stopping at red lights scenario where most people encounter everyday, why downshift and shock your drive train?

 

[SyndromeOCZ]

Only time I drive manual is when I'm in a big truck with a trailer usually. I always engine brake when slowing down. If I get in anything else its almost habit for me.

 

[Throckmorton]

I recall the same thing from driver's ed... that going downhill in neutral was illegal, but was unable to confirm also.

Also, silly roommate...

1) Forces are lower than when the engine is under power
2) Engagement is on the opposite gear tooth faces as when under power, so a different part of the transmission is wearing than when it's under power
3) I would love to see one transmission failure that was attributed to excessive downshifting

Every time you use your synchros they get worn just a little bit

 

[phucheneh]

To clarify, unless I'm driving aggressively, there's no need for me to rev match or downshift, so just come to a slow, take it out of gear and wait for the light to turn after sipping. If stop sign, then into second after the same process. Why work harder? Unless I'm on a hill... That's a whole other subject.

So, there's not really one answer for must of the situations, but from a pure stopping at red lights scenario where most people encounter everyday, why downshift and shock your drive train?

Unless you're driving a truck or something (as in, something with a big torquey engine and a sometimes-mostly-useless short first gear)...quit rolling stop signs.

Learning to stop for first will save you money around here. Local cops like 'four way stop traps' even more than they do speedtraps.

I literally always stop for first. People think I'm a bit odd sometimes when I'm, say, rolling up a steep parking lot entrance after slowing way down for a decent bump between the road and the lot. I'll trade any remaining momentum for a brief pause to shift into first. Looks a little strange, but not all that different from people who roll into the same lots at idle in an auto, then stop as the load from the hill puts their torque converter in that 'neutral' state where it's transferring just enough power to fight gravity and keep the vehicle from rolling back. Then they awkwardly gas it and jerk forward as the converter suddenly hits stall.

The average auto driver, of course, probably knows none of this, he just hits the pedals that makey car worky. Which is why I think people should at least be required to learn how to drive a manual, if not drive one every day. You will be more attentive, and you WILL learn to drive it smoothly if forced to do it enough. Whereas someone who only drives autos (just talking about your worst cases here) may go through decades of driving while maintaining complete disconnection from the car, and never really developing driving 'skills.' They're 100% habit. I've certainly gotten way-the-hell-better at actual driving skills (not always...'good driver' skills...but 'car control' essentially) over the years. And always owning manuals past ~19 or so really helped a lot of that.

Maybe it's just that some will never push their car even halfway to the limits of handling or acceleration (braking...yeah, they get that one sometimes). So, okay, final verdict: I say, mandatory road racing course in 'reasonably priced car' sort of vehicle. Something like Top Gear's current Kia, which is similar to the newer Fortes and Elantras (read, very competent handling with a decent enough level of power).

Obtaining your license requires a certain lap time. For those unable to achieve the time needed (but are somewhat close), restricted licenses can be issued. They will be known as 'teenage girl/old person/Asian' licenses (hey, I know, I'm offended to, but people will create these terms; it's out of my control...).

Learning to go fast would keep people safer. This is my paradoxical stance and I'm stickin' to it.

/derail (let's face it, 'do I coast in neutral' was pretty much done, all that anyone else is gonna go is argue about silly downshifting for stops ;P)

 

[phucheneh]

Every time you use your synchros they get worn just a little bit

Two wear parts on the synchro assembly. There's the friction material used to brake the gears and get the dog teeth lined up so the sleeve can move. And there's the teeth themselves that are used to engage gears.

The former will always wear with any synchro operation. I'm unsure on if up-shifting versus down-shifting would wear one particular face of the gears. I want to say no...constant mesh gears wear one side of the gear because one gear is usually driving the other in a certain direction. The teeth in a sychro don't really seem comparable, given their function.

edit: not that it really matters. If the blocking rings (part that wears through friction) are doing their job, wear of gear teeth is not a concern. Gears start grinding because worn blocking rings can't properly alter their speed before engagement. And I'm pretty sure they generally wear more from downshifting than upshifting.

 

[SSSnail]

Most BMWs can start in second gear just fine, if you're not drag racing. Though my current car is not a manual, but it too can start in second gear. And yes, I'm guilty of ”California stopping”.