Leave MT car in gear when braking, or go to neutral?

[neocpp]

Hi Guys,

At the risk of sounding more than a little retarded, I was wondering how you slow down with a manual transmission? I've been driving my little 5 speed integra around for a couple of months now, but I've just been teaching myself (my first and only other car was an auto).

I thought I had gotten everything figured out, but the other day my gf started lolling at me when she noticed that I downshifted/left my car in gear when braking. I never thought about it too much, but I figured I would want to be in gear just in case something started happening. However, she had been taught to go to neutral and just use the brakes. Actually, she had been taught to never take your foot off the throttle unless the clutch was in (disengaged) or you were in neutral. She has been driving MT for much longer than I have, but for some reason this just seems more dangerous, although admittedly there should be less wear on the clutch.

I've gotten conflicting information on the internet (see some of the results from yahoo answers, lawl), and I wanted to know from a mechanic's perspective if there was any reason to do one over the other. Since I'm still relatively new to this, I want to know the "right" way to do it so I can get into good habits, even though I think 99.99% of the time either will work. Personally, I'm not too concerned about a little bit more wear on the clutch if it means potentially avoiding an accident, but if there are other reasons to just go to neutral, I'd like to know

Thanks,
neocpp

 

[SSSnail]

Brake pads and rotors are A LOT less expensive to replace than a transmission.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Is this braking to a full stop/at light or just slowing down?

At longer lights I'll usually go to neutral. Shorter ones I'll stay on the clutch.

When braking to slow down just a little I do not pop into neutral for that. Only time I'll downshift is when if I had to brake from 40 to like 15 and then had to accelerate again.

Admittedly I've only been driving stick for about 10 months so still pretty green.

 

[neocpp]

SSSnail: That's usually the argument I've seen against what I'm doing, but which parts are getting worn besides the clutch? If you rev match shouldn't it be pretty minimal (not that I can do it yet, but just theoretically)? I can rev match when slowing down, but if I want to brake quickly I can't do it fast enough.

Maybe I should clarify a little on exactly what I do. Around here the traffic usually flows below 30 mph so I'm mostly in 2nd or 3rd.

If I'm in third and want to stop completely I brake and wait until right before the engine starts getting sad then downshift to second, brake and wait until before it gets sad again and I'm going like 5mph, then pop in the clutch and use only the brakes. If I'm in second, its even easier since I just brake and wait until right before the engine gets sad and then pop the clutch. If I need to sit at a light I go to neutral, unless it's about to turn. I'm basically in gear most of the time during braking.

Yea I've only had mine for a couple months, so I'm still pretty happy whenever I don't stall.

 

[brainhulk]

slowing down for a turn: rev match

slowing down for a long stop: neutral

 

[phucheneh]

I'm generally always in gear until maybe 5-10mph or so when I know I'm gonna stop. If I've come down lazily from fifth, a little sooner to keep it from stalling.

In flowing traffic on a 45-55mph road with copious lights, I usually can avoid stopping with proper timing. First gear annoys me, I try to stay in second or higher, so I often approach lights slowly under engine braking. Good to remember to tap your brake pedal just enough to trip your brake lights if you're, say, in decel in high 3rd or 4th gear...i.e. engine braking hard enough to slow yourself at least the amount many people in autos do by riding their brakes. I've heard screeches behind me before because some 'tard was just watching for brakelights and paying attention to nothing else.

I don't downshift, though. If I'm not gonna be accelerating in that gear, I'm not gonna shift into it. So complete stop = whatever gear I'm crusing in until the revs get close to a thousand, then clutch in, neutral, first when stopped.

My brakes last plenty long. On average-wearing cars (maybe 20k-40k generally, depending on driver) I usually get 50-60k or more out of a set of front pads. That's hard stops, too. Just don't ride the brakes or go into neutral when you don't need to. But eff adding wear to my synchros with unneeded downshifts.

 

[DaTT]

I downshift all the time. If I come down from a higher RPM in any particular gear, my car actually has an "engine brake" at around 2k RPM. If I am coasting and I hit that sweet RPM spot, my car slows down quite drastically for about 500 RPM, then it feels like the "engine brake" releases...probably to avoid a stall.

Plus, my car is really really really loud and I like how it sounds...

 

[thedarkwolf]

These threads are so stupid. I usually downshift to 3rd and then clutch in when the rpms get low if I'm coming to a complete stop. If it looks like the light is about to go green I'll go to 2nd. Anybody that does anything different is crazy.

 

[DaTT]

These threads are so stupid. I usually downshift to 3rd and then clutch in when the rpms get low if I'm coming to a complete stop. If it looks like the light is about to go green I'll go to 2nd. Anybody that does anything different is crazy.

All Hail Thedarkwolf....for he has spoken /bowdown

 

[sze5003]

You should be going into neutral and back in gear if you are stuck in heavy traffic. You dont want to ride the clutch either.

Engine brake as much as you can while staying in gear and when you are coming to a complete stop you push in the clutch and go to neutral if you will be stopped for a while.

I usually downshift all the way as much as I can and if I'm going to keep going I go from one gear to another using proper clutch engagement and gas to level out. You only need a small amount of pressure on your clutch well it will depend, but I mean to engine match correctly.

 

[LTC8K6]

Obligatory...

Neutral wastes fuel.

 

[kitatech]

I always stay in gear to make sure I can control the car all the time....keeping off the clutch (riding or releasing it) gives it a longer life (my last Altima needed one finally @ 185k miles)

The Camry 4cyl/5-speed has enough torque to allow the MT to cruise around town between 10 and 40 all day in 3rd (betweeen 1k and just under 3k RPMs)
...at the high end, engine braking in 3rd keeps me under the 40mph speed limit, 4th gear keeps me under 50....a good thing...
...and as long as I'm moving at all I can avoid 1st....so basically in town I can ride in 2nd and (mostly) 3rd with minimal braking...

 

[Throckmorton]

SSSnail: That's usually the argument I've seen against what I'm doing, but which parts are getting worn besides the clutch? If you rev match shouldn't it be pretty minimal (not that I can do it yet, but just theoretically)? I can rev match when slowing down, but if I want to brake quickly I can't do it fast enough.

Maybe I should clarify a little on exactly what I do. Around here the traffic usually flows below 30 mph so I'm mostly in 2nd or 3rd.

If I'm in third and want to stop completely I brake and wait until right before the engine starts getting sad then downshift to second, brake and wait until before it gets sad again and I'm going like 5mph, then pop in the clutch and use only the brakes. If I'm in second, its even easier since I just brake and wait until right before the engine gets sad and then pop the clutch. If I need to sit at a light I go to neutral, unless it's about to turn. I'm basically in gear most of the time during braking.

Yea I've only had mine for a couple months, so I'm still pretty happy whenever I don't stall.

Please don't refer to the engine "getting sad" or your girlfriend will probably leave you and then you will be getting sad! OK if your car is a cute Mini or a VW Beetle you can say it's sad. But I'm guessing you mean when it starts to lug, which you shouldn't let happen. I don't know about your car but BMW specifically says in my manual to keep RPM above 1500 or 18000 or something like that). When I'm engine braking I downshift somewhere around 2000 rpm.

But I don't really engine brake much. The extra shifting is just wear on the synchros and clutch. You are basically doubling the wear rate. Yes people say it's good to be in gear in case something happens. What is going to happen? If someone is about to rear end you, you can't physically accelerate fast enough to avoid them. If you're in traffic and have to change lanes and accelerate to avoid something, yes it can be useful but you'd probably have to downshift to accelerate anyway.

 

[exdeath]

Downshit into second rev matched at 6500 RPM coming down the off ramp and and coast to a stop. Bonus points if there are concrete banks on both sides.

Shift cable broke on me Friday (unknown aftermarket should have known better), had to drive home without a clutch pedal. Fun times.

 

[exdeath]

Please don't refer to the engine "getting sad" or your girlfriend will probably leave you and then you will be getting sad! OK if your car is a cute Mini or a VW Beetle you can say it's sad. But I'm guessing you mean when it starts to lug, which you shouldn't let happen. I don't know about your car but BMW specifically says in my manual to keep RPM above 1500 or 18000 or something like that). When I'm engine braking I don't downshift somewhere around 2000 rpm.

But I don't really engine brake much. The extra shifting is just wear on the synchros and clutch. You are basically doubling the wear rate. Yes people say it's good to be in gear in case something happens. What is going to happen? If someone is about to rear end you, you can't physically accelerate fast enough to avoid them. If you're in traffic and have to change lanes and accelerate to avoid something, yes it can be useful but you'd probably have to downshift to accelerate anyway.

I've done just that on several occasions, mostly due to me watching my rear view any time I have to stop fast and unexpectedly. See someone coming up fast, see them nose dive, hear tires sliding, GTFO. Being in gear or not is irrelevant because 1) stopping suddenly you need to shift from 5/6 to 1/2 anyway or possibly stall, and 2) anticipating actions of others in advance gives you plenty of time to put it in gear as needed.

If you arent paying attention, you aren't going to be fast enough regardless how many billionths of a second you pretend to save by being in gear already.

 

[Throckmorton]

I've done just that on several occasions, mostly due to me watching my rear view any time I have to stop fast and unexpectedly. See someone coming up fast, see them nose dive, hear tires sliding, GTFO. Being in gear or not is irrelevant because 1) stopping suddenly you need to shift from 5/6 to 1/2 anyway or possibly stall, and 2) anticipating actions of others in advance gives you plenty of time to put it in gear as needed.

If you arent paying attention, you aren't going to be fast enough regardless how many billionths of a second you pretend to save by being in gear already.

You have like 1000hp. But yeah, you'd need to downshift anyway so it might take extra time with it in gear already.. unless you're in a low gear already, which I find gives you too much engine braking.

 

[Kelvrick]

For me:

Slowing down to red light -> Still in gear, release gas pedal, put hand on shifter, hit brakes. As the car gets to 1300 rpm or so, I clutch in, bring car to neutral, continue braking to stop.

Slowing down to turn/not complete stop -> Still in gear, release gas pedal, put hand on shifter, hit brakes (or just let go of gas and coast (engine brake) if appropriate). Clutch in when at appropriate speed or when its time to accelerate, shift to appropriate gear, release brakes, rev match, clutch out.

 

[JCH13]

Brake pads and rotors are A LOT less expensive to replace than a transmission.

Any engine braking forces are considerably less than hitting the gas. You are technically correct, but the implication that OP would be 'saving' the transmission is silly.

I almost always leave my car in gear when slowing down or coasting. I will generally go into neutral rather than downshift to 1st, which is silly.

1) Engages fuel cut (hooray less gas)
2) Reduces braking effort and brake wear considerably
3) Shifting into neutral, particularly going down a hill is less safe than being in gear for the extremely rare case where brakes fail, or the more common case where you've got wet brakes and need to dry them off with a few pumps (happened to me last week)

I always shift into neutral and let the clutch out at stop lights and generally at stop signs.

1) Left leg is less tired
2) Less wear on the clutch (IMO, but there is no way a spinning clutch, even with little load, is not wearing)
3) Being in neutral at a stoplight is safer than holding in the clutch in the extremely rare case where your foot slips off the clutch and you lurch into traffic

 

[jlee]

Any engine braking forces are considerably less than hitting the gas. You are technically correct, but the implication that OP would be 'saving' the transmission is silly.

I almost always leave my car in gear when slowing down or coasting. I will generally go into neutral rather than downshift to 1st, which is silly.

1) Engages fuel cut (hooray less gas)
2) Reduces braking effort and brake wear considerably
3) Shifting into neutral, particularly going down a hill is less safe than being in gear for the extremely rare case where brakes fail, or the more common case where you've got wet brakes and need to dry them off with a few pumps (happened to me last week)

I always shift into neutral and let the clutch out at stop lights and generally at stop signs.

1) Left leg is less tired
2) Less wear on the clutch (IMO, but there is no way a spinning clutch, even with little load, is not wearing)
3) Being in neutral at a stoplight is safer than holding in the clutch in the extremely rare case where your foot slips off the clutch and you lurch into traffic

This, except I usually stay in gear with the clutch down at stoplights (unless it's apparent that I'll be there for a while, then maybe not).

 

[pauldun170]

Hi Guys,

At the risk of sounding more than a little retarded, I was wondering how you slow down with a manual transmission? I've been driving my little 5 speed integra around for a couple of months now, but I've just been teaching myself (my first and only other car was an auto).

I thought I had gotten everything figured out, but the other day my gf started lolling at me when she noticed that I downshifted/left my car in gear when braking. I never thought about it too much, but I figured I would want to be in gear just in case something started happening. However, she had been taught to go to neutral and just use the brakes. Actually, she had been taught to never take your foot off the throttle unless the clutch was in (disengaged) or you were in neutral. She has been driving MT for much longer than I have, but for some reason this just seems more dangerous, although admittedly there should be less wear on the clutch.

I've gotten conflicting information on the internet (see some of the results from yahoo answers, lawl), and I wanted to know from a mechanic's perspective if there was any reason to do one over the other. Since I'm still relatively new to this, I want to know the "right" way to do it so I can get into good habits, even though I think 99.99% of the time either will work. Personally, I'm not too concerned about a little bit more wear on the clutch if it means potentially avoiding an accident, but if there are other reasons to just go to neutral, I'd like to know

Thanks,
neocpp

Driving stick since 1991, which would also mark the last year I owned an automatic vehicle (not including the wifes vehicle)
I keep my cars for at least 130K.

Approaching a stop, I'll either leave it in gear until it gets close to idle speed (by that time I just about at a complete stop) or I'll just run through the gears (rev matching on the way down) as conditions require. I would say that a majority of the time I'll drop it down.
I NEVER just toss it into neutral.

The engine braking combined with regular brakes has saved me a ton of cash over the years on brake pads\rotors and I feel provides smoother, more controllable braking.

The use of engine braking in normal day to day driving isn't going to cause wear and tear on a drivetrain.

 

[neocpp]

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. Most of you seem to do some variation of leaving the car in gear and engine braking, so I'll probably just keep doing what I'm doing (but following Throckmorton's suggestion it seems like I should downshift or go out of gear a bit earlier so the engine doesn't start lugging).

Slightly related, how long does it take all of you to start moving from a complete stop? I find I'm still slow off the line if I'm not anticipating a light change, which is mostly why I wanted to leave it in the correct gear when braking. It's not some "billionths of a second"; if I have to fumble around I know it will take me at least half a second which is more than enough between "near miss" and "rear ended vehicle". It seems like I'm getting better at this over time, but I'm not sure if I'm just anticipating the lights better or actually getting better at taking off.

 

[JimKiler]

Brake pads and rotors are A LOT less expensive to replace than a transmission.

Same argument my roommate in college was make to me. He got a 4 year degree in automotive mechanic something or other. Anyway i have still downshifted unless i am doing a fast stop and so far have not had any issues with engines in my 3 manual cars.

My mom would say something about being in neutral is illegal but i never confirmed that.

 

[kitatech]

This, except I usually stay in gear with the clutch down at stoplights (unless it's apparent that I'll be there for a while, then maybe not).

NOT a good idea....puts wear on the throughout bearing....better to leave it at the top rather than at the floor.

 

[exdeath]

NOT a good idea....puts wear on the throughout bearing....better to leave it at the top rather than at the floor.

Turn the engine off too when stopped so you don't wear out the rod bearings...

The only time excessive TOB use and wear will occur is when the clutch linkage is not adjusted properly and its engaged 24/7 even when the pedal isn't being touched causing it to run hot, lose lube, etc.

The few moments at a stop are insignificant on the TOB over the expected life of a clutch.

 

[jlee]

NOT a good idea....puts wear on the throughout bearing....better to leave it at the top rather than at the floor.

I'll destroy a clutch well before I wear out a throwout bearing.