Largest Israeli strike on Gaza just days after truce with Hamas ends

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
israel has always wanted peace, since the day it was created.

In the days before Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948, they depopulated 199 Arab localities, displacing over 400.000 civilians, and over doubling the size of the territory they controlled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...Palestinian_localities

There was no looking for peace in that.

may I remind you that the Israelis there were people from the HOLOCAUST.

Many were people who suffered though the Holocaust. Are you suggesting that fact that somehow makes their displacment of over 400.000 Arab civilians anything but an act of war?

no, it is the Jewish people returning to the state of israel in over 2000 years, after the holocaust, and the UN partition plan.

Israeli troops depopulating and sometimes outright destroying 199 Arab localities across both sides of the U.N. partition plan, prior to the date it was scheduled to go into effect, is what caused those over 400,000 Arab civilians to become refugees. Again, how was "returning to the state of Israel" in that manor anything less than an act of war?

Did you know that during the first through the fifth aliyah, known as movements starting from 1882 and ending in 1948, by jews looking for freedom and no more anti-semitism, went to Israel, known as Palestine at the time.

they found settlements known as Yishuv, which were settlements of Jews who have lived there since babylonian times and never left. Link for wiki here

especially during the second aliyah, many arab attacks happened on Jewish settlements.

Here is what I mean. A group known as Hashomer was created by Jewish people as a defense for the Yishuv and the different new settlements by the people coming from the different aliyot (plural in hebrew for aliyah), it later became known as the IDF. Hashomer on wiki


how about one in many attacks on jews, known as 1929 Hebron massacre.

Here, wiki


Jews were trying to live with arabs, the arabs attacked the Jews.



I could dig in more and find more attacks and defenses of arabs attacking jews, but it is 3 am here.

I assure you again that I am familiar with the history, but I'm still looking for you to answer my question. Again, how was over 400,000 Arabs from their towns and villages on both sides of the U.N. partition plan, anything less than an act of war?

And yeah, late it is, we can always continue this conversation tomorrow.

 

[Freshgeardude]

TheSnowMan,

it was the west bank. I remember it clearly.


The only reason Israel has ever taken land is for the protection of its people.

a good example, which I have used many times in this thread is the Golan Heights.

it used to belong to syria, but now it belongs to Israel because, syria used to attack Israeli settlements below the Heights.


if any land was taken by Israel, it was for protection of its people.

 

[Freshgeardude]

this basically happened since the time of abraham.

Abraham lived in Cana'an. year pass.... jews live in egypt because of famine. become slaves. after they are led by moses to the land of Israel. They then must fight several nations to return to their land. time passes, the persians kick them out. they return after time. babylonians come they get kicked out. more than 2000 years pass. now its ~1900 the jews are trying to avoid antisemitism and pogroms. they go back to thier land, but since its been 2000 years, the occupants think its their land. now the jews just want to live in peace. they get attacked. holocaust happens, UN makes partition plan, jews want their land. arabs are pissed because they have to move.

tbh, I dont really care. there is so much other land in lebanon, syria, jordan, and egypt. they should have just gone there.


now, not even these countries want these people. the only people who give 2 shits about them are the jews who actually give them land, supplies, electricity

 

[Freshgeardude]

wow, just reading this just proves my stuff more


Linky

the arabs are attacking each other because they do not want to fight.

these are the people that attack israel, please explain this

 

[BrownTown]

Really the bitch here is the crumbling of the British empire over the first half of the twentieth century resulted in Western countries slicing and dicing land making new countries out of thin air with little to no regard for the religious and ethnic nature of those involved, pretty much every "hot spot" in the world today is the result of the destruction of the Western empires.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
wow, just reading this just proves my stuff more


Linky

the arabs are attacking each other because they do not want to fight.

these are the people that attack israel, please explain this

again, just FWIW (I really need to stop playing Devils Advocate here given some people emotional connection to these issues :evil, but how can people say arabs or Muslims are bad people and then quote a story where one group is attacking another for being peacefull? See the problem is when you bomb the retarded warmongering first group half you collateral damage is probably from the peaceful second group, so you are killing hundreds of peaceful people in these pursuits. At the very least that is pretty morally ambiguous IMO, whether or not its warranted nobody on this forum probably knows, but at the very least its not black and white here. You are walking a very thin line between morality and the abyss and to suggest that Israel NEVER takes a slip in the wrong direction is somewhat disingenuous imo.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
TheSnowMan,

it was the west bank. I remember it clearly.

Far enough, I just assumed you were speaking of Gaza because I clearly recall as much happening there, but that it isn't to say it couldn't have happened in the West Bank as well. Regardless, there is still 500,000 Israeli civilians settler across the West Bank, and again, unlike the ones you recalled, the vast majorty do not have any ideologcal attachment to the land.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
The only reason Israel has ever taken land is for the protection of its people.

Military occupation of the land can be done for the protection of the people, but colonizing the land only puts Israelis closer to the Arabs you are claiming it protects them from. How is there any protection to be had in that?

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
a good example, which I have used many times in this thread is the Golan Heights.

it used to belong to syria, but now it belongs to Israel because, syria used to attack Israeli settlements below the Heights.


if any land was taken by Israel, it was for protection of its people.

The Golan is actually an excellent example to the contrary:

It is an article of faith among Israelis that the Golan Heights were seized in the 1967 Middle East war to stop Syria from shelling the Israeli settlements down below. The future of the Golan Heights is central to the search for peace in the Middle East, and much of the case against giving the Golan Heights back to Syria rests on the fear of reviving that threat.

But like many another of Israel's founding legends, this one has come under question lately, and from a most surprising quarter: Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan.

General Dayan died in 1981. But in conversations with a young reporter five years earlier, he said he regretted not having stuck to his initial opposition to storming the Golan Heights. There really was no pressing reason to do so, he said, because many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland.

...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
TheSnowMan,

it was the west bank. I remember it clearly.


The only reason Israel has ever taken land is for the protection of its people.

a good example, which I have used many times in this thread is the Golan Heights.

it used to belong to syria, but now it belongs to Israel because, syria used to attack Israeli settlements below the Heights.


if any land was taken by Israel, it was for protection of its people.

The propaganda is stronger than ever.

From the people that developed Israel state -- Regions and territories: The Golan Heightst

Israel seized the Golan Heights from Syria in the closing stages of the 1967 Six-Day War. Most of the Syrian Arab inhabitants fled the area during the conflict.

An armistice line was established and the region came under Israeli military control. Almost immediately Israel began to settle the Golan...

Israel unilaterally annexed the Golan Heights in 1981. The move was not recognised internationally.
There are more than 30 Jewish settlements on the heights, with an estimated 20,000 settlers. There are some 20,000 Syrians in the area, most of them members of the Druze sect...

Jews stolen & built many settlements on all disputed territories with out heed from every parties that are involved and international condemnations.

Why would Jews put themselves in direct line of fire by building their homes and farms in area that they took & call it ?buffer zones?, if safety is their uttermost concern.

IMHO, Jews motive is to enlarge their Zionist land at all cost.

And, I'm surprise that Jews have the audacity to call themselves ?the children of God?, while continuing stealing from their neighbors.

 

[fstime]

This freshgeardude and some others in this thread are some of the biggest morons I have ever seen on the internet.

How could he agree that bombing a building is justified to kill one person? I don't care if it was a shack and there was only one other person with the target.



All it comes down to is, what we know as Israel should have never been created the way it was.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
IMHO, Jews motive is to enlarge their Zionist land at all cost.

The vast majority of Jews have absolutely no interest in enlarging the state of Israel. Unfortunately, a small but resourceful faction of Zionists (some Jews and some not) are determined that Israel continue holding onto the Golan and further colonize the West Bank, and they have been using whatever means they can to trick others into supporting their cause.

 

[gingermeggs]

yes......... its funny all this springs from one man- tell me who is abraham's father and where did he come from? the garden of eden?
the old chicken and the egg paradox is easy- evolution baby! I hate to tell you this....petal... but your a monkey's uncle first and fore most.
So stop kill'en and thievin' heathen!

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Israel NEVER EVER EVER EVER(get it in your brain) fires intentionally on civilians.

What do you call bombing 10 buildings for every rocket?

Justified collateral damage?

Or using a one-ton bomb to assassinate one man in a croweded resdental area?

Effective? Don't wanna risk getting bombed--stop harboring and tolerating terrorists and string them up yourselves.

Well guess what, in 1948 when 7 arab countries attacked israel...

Note that was directly after Israeli troops had displaced over 400,000 civilians:

Were those alleged 400,000 who were displaced displaced as a result of their own aggression and attacks on the Jews? Were they attacking kibbutzs out of religious hatred, machismo, and a sense that the Israelis' productivity with otherwise worthless land was putting them to shame? Can we add some context here?

If this Muslim religion is really so peaceful and worthwhile then why is it that, invariably, almost all of the terrorists around the world are devout Muslims? When you put this in a wider context it seems very believable that the Israelis are the good guys. Supposedly the Taliban has threatened to kill girls who attend school in Afghanistan. It was Muslims who attacked Mumbai. We could make a long list of atrocities. Given all of this context, why do you expect anyone to believe that the Palestinians are any better than the Taliban?

It seems pretty clear that the relatively gentle and altruistic Israelis stand for reason and Western Civilization whereas the Palestinians stand for religious insanity and barbarism. If the Israelis were more self-interested and less altruistic and empathetic then they would have just expelled the Palestinians decades ago, conquered the Middle East, and seized all of the oil wealth (which is what the Western world should have done). I find it amazing that anyone would even want to be associated with Islam voluntarily today (and not just convert to atheism) even if the association were in name only.

 

[dennilfloss]

Maybe Israel should give the Gaza strip back to Egypt in exchange for a similarly sized portion of territory expanding its southern border near Taba.

Text

Then we'd see how the Egyptian government would deal with Hamas.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Well guess what, in 1948 when 7 arab countries attacked israel...

Note that was directly after Israeli troops had displaced over 400,000 civilians:

Were those alleged 400,000 who were displaced displaced as a result of their own aggression and attacks on the Jews?

Both sides had their share of aggressors who attacked others. But the answer to your question is; no, the 400,000 Arab civilians were displaced as a result of living on land that Israeli solders wanted to control.

 

[Zebo]

I am proud of Israel that they have had enough and took action and now finish this task by retaking the Gaza quickly from the terrorists. I hope they kill all the terrorists and vermin even if some innocents have to die because this war has to end and can't end when dealing with people who only want you exterminated.

 

[eternalone]

Israel is wrong .

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dennilflossThen we'd see how the Egyptian government would deal with Hamas.

I would love to see how Egypt and the other Arab countries would deal with their "brothers" whom they say they love.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Well guess what, in 1948 when 7 arab countries attacked israel...

Note that was directly after Israeli troops had displaced over 400,000 civilians:

Were those alleged 400,000 who were displaced displaced as a result of their own aggression and attacks on the Jews?

Both sides had their share of aggressors who attacked others. But the answer to your question is; no, the 400,000 Arab civilians were displaced as a result of living on land that Israeli solders wanted to control.

Now...why would they want to control that land...in order to better defend kibbutzes and Jewish settlements perhaps? In order to prepare for the Arab attempt to exterminate the Jews that they knew was coming?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I am proud of Israel that they have had enough and took action and now finish this task by retaking the Gaza quickly from the terrorists. I hope they kill all the terrorists and vermin even if some innocents have to die because this war has to end and can't end when dealing with people who only want you exterminated.

I'm wondering if it might be possible to just forcibly relocate all of the Gaza people over to the West Bank and to then annex Gaza. It seems like they're having an awful lot of trouble over such a small strip of land. They could call it compensation for all of the suicide bombings, etc.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Zebo
I am proud of Israel that they have had enough and took action and now finish this task by retaking the Gaza quickly from the terrorists. I hope they kill all the terrorists and vermin even if some innocents have to die because this war has to end and can't end when dealing with people who only want you exterminated.

I'm wondering if it might be possible to just forcibly relocate all of the Gaza people over to the West Bank and to then annex Gaza. It seems like they're having an awful lot of trouble over such a small strip of land. They could call it compensation for all of the suicide bombings, etc.

Of course they could should and would be perfectly justified since all the rules of warfare and postwar settlement dictate when attacks are relentless from a neighbor you have a right to a buffer zone. These same rules entitled Italy to keep the Algo Adige despite being ethnic German after World War I. These same rules allowed the French to incorporate the Alsace-Lorraine despite being 95% German. And the United States to incorporate the western States from Mexico. These rules shouldn't suddenly cease to apply when it comes to Israel and Israel could do itself a favor by defending their rights instead of constant chamberlain overtures and bowing to international bullying.

 

[JJChicken]

I read maybe half or more of this thread on my mobile. Just wanted to say that despite all the bickering that goes on in here, this was actually quite a good thread to get more informed on the ME situation. Prior to this I had no clue. Now I understand it a bit better. :thumbsup:

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Aimster
Palestinians never started a war for them to be defeated. They were nothing and are still nothing.

They were the Arabs slaves and the Arabs threw them out after they stopped fighting with the Israelis.

Now they are the M.E trash that nobody wants.

Yep, as someone in ties with the middle east, you know that just as well as I do and people around here don't realize. Egypt doesn't want them, Jordan doesn't want them. Black September

Unfortunately, only Arabs know how to deal with other Arabs.

Apparently that's to kill them, because of some difference (be it land, religious beliefs, being raised that way, or past conflicts).

 

[keird]

The Gaza Strip - Land Mass 139 sq. miles, population 1.5 million

Manhattan - Land Mass 22.96 sq. miles, population 1,620,867

With all the expenditure of the worlds treasure in humanitarian aid for Gaza in the last 40 years, I find it difficult to believe that they can't stop hating in order to build a better life for themselves. They buy weapons instead. Hamas is a gang of terrorists. They are deserving of the scorn and ridicule they recieve.

Maybe the kidnapping, torture and execution of Hamas' captives will ease their peoples suffering. They're desparate because they are failures.

 

[spacejamz]

I am just wondering what the civilians that have been killed since the 1st day of airstrikes were thinking?

Let's see...Hamas facilities are targets of these airstrikes...one would think that someone would avoid being anywhere near these places at any cost as the airstrikes continue but yet the 'civilian' count continues to rise. Mkes you wonder if these are actually civilians or Hamas soldiers dressed as civilians (not sure how you tell the difference though)...

i realize that there are probably not many places for these people to go, but if your life and the lives of your family at risk, any option has to better than risk being near the collateral damage of a Hamas target...

 

[Oyeve]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I am proud of Israel that they have had enough and took action and now finish this task by retaking the Gaza quickly from the terrorists. I hope they kill all the terrorists and vermin even if some innocents have to die because this war has to end and can't end when dealing with people who only want you exterminated.

yeah, just in time before Bush leaves the Whitehouse. Israel needs to deal with their own shit and I wish be had a government with enough BALLS to tell Isreal to go fuck itself and fund your own war. I wish the Usa would stop giving Isreal $$$. Let them deal on their own. If the rest if the Middle east takes em over, fuck it. The US should help the countries that NEED help, not the mideast and especially not Isreal. No one has wanted the jews in any country for over 5000 years. Ever wonder why? They outnumbered the Egyptians 10-1, why didnt the jews resist then? Oh, yeah, stupid religious bullshit. I have no pity for any society that lets a religion dictate your life. Religion is for fucking morons and sheep. Almost every single war fought has a religious root cause.

Send pamphlets to Isreal and the Gaza strip stating you have 3 days to leave. Then nuke isreal and the gaza strip. Let them all live on wide open glass. Or move to the VAST areas that are not inhabited, but just not next to each other.

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: spacejamz

I am just wondering what the civilians that have been killed since the 1st day of airstrikes were thinking?

Let's see...Hamas facilities are targets of these airstrikes...one would think that someone would avoid being anywhere near these places at any cost as the airstrikes continue but yet the 'civilian' count continues to rise. Mkes you wonder if these are actually civilians or Hamas soldiers dressed as civilians (not sure how you tell the difference though)...

i realize that there are probably not many places for these people to go, but if your life and the lives of your family at risk, any option has to better than risk being near the collateral damage of a Hamas target...

There are places on the web that scrutinize photographs coming from major news outlets. I look at how many military-aged men there are. You will see multiple photos and angles (even locations) of any women and children killed. The big thing for Hamas is getting their 'suffering' on camera. and exploiting it. I'll look around for the famous set-ups, but some show events that have a circus-like atmosphere on extended video, yet only the most dramatic image of a 'Freedom Fighter' resisting (no danger to himself, of course) on a news clip is deemed digestible by the major news outlets. So what is actually 5 minutes of hamming it up for the cameras, turns in to a 3 second dramatic clip of 'footage'. They exploit the media. The media doesn't mind. There are even allegations that Hamas uses the bodies of previously deceased children and poses them in rubble. Look up Green Helmet.