I have yet to see any peace from that side of Israel.
When was the last time Israel settled the territory it took from Egypt..
Your logic is faulty.
I have yet to see any peace from that side of Israel.
When was the last time Israel settled the territory it took from Egypt..
Your logic is faulty.
I do acknoledge it, it also has removed people as part of the peace process at times (something you are ignoring). Israel has removed people forcibly for peace, peace processes the arabs always sabotaged. So now the arabs will have to do something to bring about peace, something such as not firing rockets into Israel would be a good start.
The palestinian people made this bed, they get to lie in it now. There are many good, hardworking Palestinian people, sadly the palestinian people, as a democractic society are responsible for there governments actions.
kylebisme
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I acknowledge this fact that Israel has removed people from settlements in the West Bank. Actually, did so a few pages back in this thread, which I would be happy to dig up if you need.
However, I am also know that even as those settlers were being moved, more settlement planning and construction has constantly been taking place in other areas of the West Bank.
I do hope you can acknowledge that as well.
I do, but the settlements being made are already in land that has been said will stay in Israel hands during any negotiations in exchange for other land the Arabs want.
This is why when news of "construction" plans comes out it makes a big splash for a day than is never brought up again. Israel does not want war, if it did it would still be fighting Egypt, would have went to war with Iran already and would have invaded Syria. Israel is not afraid to fight though, peace will be had, it will come at a price, but saying a few hundred houses built on land that has been part of Israel in every negotiation as well as something every Palestinian negotiatior has achnoledged would stay in Israel hands is not the right thing to focus on.
If you want to focus on building that should not have happened, that would be the building of homes in east Jerusalem. Since that part of the city will go to Arabs those homes should never have been built as it will only cause heartache when those people need to be removed at a later time.
Freshgeardude
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well lets see here, I wanted to read more on these facts of yours, so I went
Here
now under History, I read
"During the 1950s, there was a significant influx of Palestinian refugees and violence together with Israeli reprisal raids across the Green Line."
this group was known as unit 101
now that we established that the arabs started the attacks on israel first,
"Following the 1948 war, Israel was faced with cross-border raids by Arab militants. Initially these were small scale attacks launched by refugees often motivated by economic reasons, but they were quickly adopted by the military of the neighboring Arab states, who organized them into semi-formal brigades which mounted larger scale operations from 1954 onwards. [1] According to Israel, some 9,000 attacks were launched from 1949 to 1956[2], resulting in hundreds of Israeli civilian casualties. [3][4][5]"
"Jordan soon began shelling targets in west Jerusalem, Netanya, and the outskirts of Tel Aviv.[11] Despite this, Israel sent a message promising not to initiate any action against Jordan if it stayed out of the war. "
See, Israel still did not want war.
"First, the Israeli government had no intention of capturing the West Bank. On the contrary, it was opposed to it. Second, there was not any provocation on the part of the IDF. Third, the rein was only loosened when a real threat to Jerusalem's security emerged. This is truly how things happened on June 5, although it is difficult to believe. The end result was something that no one had planned.[15]"
also, Israel agreed at first to let the arabs keep Jerusalem, but the old city was one of the biggest things of jewish history, especially the western wall of the old temple.
now, arabs have attacked Israel. Syria was also building a water route, which would divert 11% of the water supply of Israel.
the Suez Canal was blocked by Israeli use and that was the major port for Israel.
Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq were preparing to attack Israel. They saw this and quickly did a pre- emptive attack. some can call this the six hour war, because Egypt's air force basically got destroyed.
time passed, 6 days later, Israel owned these nations, and they were fixing all the problems. they got the suez canal access again, they destroyed the water route being built by syria, and they had to take care of the WEST BANK( capping this incase you skipped over the other details). They had to take control of the problem there, which were attacks on Israeli settlements.
how do you fix that? you put military bases and check points(what we have today.) over time, the arab try living away from these bases. Israelis move in because they feel safe near the military bases.
Arabs keep moving away, while Israel continues to keep its civilians safe, which makes people move near the military bases to feel safe. give it 40 years, you have a lot of people feeling safe
oh and by the way, if you read that wiki, it will explain over 10,000 palestine civilians being allowed to cross into Israel from the west bank to work.
these people arent sending missiles into israel, or making an excuse that it is Israel's fault. they are working to keep their family well fed, and I hope well educated. thats not the case in gaza, where they spend their money on rockets instead of health care and education
Freshgeardude
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they do want land in exchange for peace, which is obviously all of Israel, but what israel is there to make peace with when it is not there anymore
kylebisme
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Basicly, and that is the ongoing colonization of the West Bank which is the heart of this conflict.
I am well aware of the fact that thousands of Palestinians are exploited as cheap labor for Israelis.
In Gaza Israeli military withdrew their troops unilaterally, creating a huge power vacuum which was sure to spiral the region into chaos, while settlers continue to colonize the West Bank as the Israeli military keeps them feeling safe. Are you not seeing the connection here?
kylebisme
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The Arabs don't want any of Israel, they just want Israel to withdraw to their internationally recognized boarders, thus removing the settlers in the West Bank and the Golan Heights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
Freshgeardude
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well you basically agreed with me that Israelis are moving in for protection.
they moved in to protect the people from arab attacks
arab attacks started it all.
once again. Arabs started the conflict, but do you honestly think those palestinian children and adults who were not alive during the six day war are going to believe Israelis, which through propaganda has told them to hate the Israelis or Arabs.
there is never a perfect agreement with the Arabs, they always think its the Israeli's fault.
if they didnt attack Jewish settlements, then Israeli military bases would never come, which would not bring in the jews for protection, and move the arabs away.
they ask for peace but they didnt commit to it when they attack the Jewish settlements.
get my picture? now, you can either tell me I am wrong or right on the matter, and maybe you will say... actually youll probably say something like. I agree with you but the way Israeli settlements are still there today make it seem like Israel does not want peace, or do acts that provoke peace.
anyways, whatever you decide, I do not honestly think the people in Gaza care about this settlement issue in the west bank. They, well Hamas, wants to kill all the Jewish people and take over the land of Israel, even though they already have the land all around Israel, which goes back to my original idea of saying, the palestinians are greedy and the other arab nations do not want them
they moved in to protect the people from arab attacks
arab attacks started it all.
once again. Arabs started the conflict, but do you honestly think those palestinian children and adults who were not alive during the six day war are going to believe Israelis, which through propaganda has told them to hate the Israelis or Arabs.
there is never a perfect agreement with the Arabs, they always think its the Israeli's fault.
if they didnt attack Jewish settlements, then Israeli military bases would never come, which would not bring in the jews for protection, and move the arabs away.
they ask for peace but they didnt commit to it when they attack the Jewish settlements.
get my picture? now, you can either tell me I am wrong or right on the matter, and maybe you will say... actually youll probably say something like. I agree with you but the way Israeli settlements are still there today make it seem like Israel does not want peace, or do acts that provoke peace.
anyways, whatever you decide, I do not honestly think the people in Gaza care about this settlement issue in the west bank. They, well Hamas, wants to kill all the Jewish people and take over the land of Israel, even though they already have the land all around Israel, which goes back to my original idea of saying, the palestinians are greedy and the other arab nations do not want them
Freshgeardude
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Ok. now, if lets say they get back the golan heights and all of the west bank, they will once again attack Israeli towns.
it will be a circle of repeating history
kylebisme
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The Arabs were just living in Palestine when as small number of Jews in Europe decided they wanted to establish an ethnic nationalist state in region, and hence begin to colonize it. That is what started this confict, and the ongoing colonization of the West Bank is what perpetuates it today.
Ah you only go back to the originaly creation?
There is so much more history there though, even from just say 1875-1930 Let alone the last few millenia!
kylebisme
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They would if it was done line the Gaza strip, where the military withdrew along side the settlers. Again, that was destined for nothing but chaos.
However, if the troops stayed to keep order as the reality of the settler withdrawal set in, those troops then slowly withdraw towards the boarder over the course of years, as tensions continue to calm. Of course the boarder itself would have to be turned into a no-mans land for many years with a strong defense to control it. However, given about 70 years of that process, the people on both sides who grew up learning to hate the people of the other would mostly have all died from old age, and at some point after that Israel could live in true peace with the region.
That is what I hope I might see started in my lifetime, as there has been far too much suffering inflicted on both sides of this conflict to carry on as it has any longer.
Freshgeardude
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seriously. if you want to go that far back we can. we can start with the hundreds of years jews were in Israel before Islam was ever created
Freshgeardude
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you know, there will always be the radicals of every religion. Sadly, the arab radical part of their religion is growing and I do not think it will stop any time soon.
anyways, I can not find this quote anywhere, but I can assure you it came from here, and I think its excelent.
Golda Meir- " I can forgive the Arabs for killing Jews, but I can never forgive them for making the Jews into killers."
think about that for a bit
anyways, I can not find this quote anywhere, but I can assure you it came from here, and I think its excelent.
Golda Meir- " I can forgive the Arabs for killing Jews, but I can never forgive them for making the Jews into killers."
think about that for a bit
Freshgeardude
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yea lets talk about that. America and the native americans.
how come America killed, raped, destroyed, moved thousands of Native Americans yet there is no conflict today?
because, Native americans do not teach their children to hate from day one. They do not think about destruction, and because the US gives them benefits like, from what I understand, they dont pay taxes, they can gamble, and im sure there is more.
now lets pretend the native americans were in place of the radical Islam in gaza and around Israel. what would we have.... peace in the middle east! Israel gives gaza supplies, electricity, water, and let them have their own police, kinda sounds like the indians in america. I live in florida, near the hard rock hotel. They have their own police, their own like mini village where they can work, avoid taxes, and live meaningful lives. why cant the arabs of gaza do the same?
how come America killed, raped, destroyed, moved thousands of Native Americans yet there is no conflict today?
because, Native americans do not teach their children to hate from day one. They do not think about destruction, and because the US gives them benefits like, from what I understand, they dont pay taxes, they can gamble, and im sure there is more.
now lets pretend the native americans were in place of the radical Islam in gaza and around Israel. what would we have.... peace in the middle east! Israel gives gaza supplies, electricity, water, and let them have their own police, kinda sounds like the indians in america. I live in florida, near the hard rock hotel. They have their own police, their own like mini village where they can work, avoid taxes, and live meaningful lives. why cant the arabs of gaza do the same?
Freshgeardude
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Jews were looking for a place away from anti-semitism, no pogroms, and plain out humanitarian rights. thats why they tried to go back to israel, which was their home 2000 years ago.
now, Israel did not build ontop of the arab settlements, they went to areas where they were not. they did not get kicked out at first, until more jews came.
secondly, lets be honest here, look at the amount of land available for Arabs to live in, and look at what Israel was trying to live with.
when different zionist leaders were discussing where a home for the jewish people could be, at first they talked about going to South Africa at first, Madagascar actually, but they realized that the real jewish home is where we call it today.
now, Israel did not build ontop of the arab settlements, they went to areas where they were not. they did not get kicked out at first, until more jews came.
secondly, lets be honest here, look at the amount of land available for Arabs to live in, and look at what Israel was trying to live with.
when different zionist leaders were discussing where a home for the jewish people could be, at first they talked about going to South Africa at first, Madagascar actually, but they realized that the real jewish home is where we call it today.
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