Lapped my i7-3770K and there was zero improvement in operating temperatures!?

[bryanW1995]

i didnt know people still did this. i remember reading years ago that lapping usually doesnt improve temps

It usually helps. I've done it a few times to good effect, though never with 3000 grit!!

 

[Diogenes2]

.........
ON the "ineffectiveness" issue -- I'll answer with another question: "What's the purpose if releasing a "K" version of a CPU, if you can't change the multiplier much beyond the default "turbo" level?" That is, some IB purchasers feel limited to that degree.
.................

Then their feelings are unwarranted and un-educated ..

Bumping the multi +10 with an IB, and using a $30 air cooler to keep temps well within a decent range, is hardly being limited..

 

[Smartazz]

Then their feelings are unwarranted and un-educated ..

Bumping the multi +10 with an IB, and using a $30 air cooler to keep temps well within a decent range, is hardly being limited..

While overclocks like this work, I'm interested in the longevity of these chips running such high temps. I always try to keep my chips below 60C but I suspect that I'm too conservative.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Will these various aftermarket TIM option last the lifetime of the chip without drying out/cracking though? Intel don't have the luxury of using some exotic TIM that will last 3 or 4 years before it needs cleaning off (let alone the 1-2 years which is the max I would use TIM for before removing/replacing it) and reapplying, they need whatever they use to last 6 or 7 years and I am not aware of an aftermarket TIM that I would be happy relying on this for, let alone an aftermarket TIM company that advertises it's TIM will last this long.

Some of the liquid metal products should not dry out or crack -- the ingredient substances will form a bond with metal like copper/nickel, and if they ever get hot enough it should refresh that situation. The diamond paste of thickness like IC Diamond may dry out some, but it doesn't matter, because the heat-transfer properties of the diamond particles will never change or degrade. In fact, old diamond paste, or what's left of it, can be re-used by applying a little of the silicone TIM to it.

Somewhere a few years back, I read something to the effect that AS5 would degrade over time. If so, I may have used it for 3-5 years on machines I built, and never noticed much in the way of changes.

 

[bryanW1995]

While overclocks like this work, I'm interested in the longevity of these chips running such high temps. I always try to keep my chips below 60C but I suspect that I'm too conservative.

You are way too conservative. I've run cpus for well over a decade, with temps into the low '90's at times (though usually high '70's is more typical) 24/7 with seti@home with optimized apps, and I've never fried a cpu. Temps are somewhat important to chip longevity, but voltage has a much greater impact. I've never use h20/etc, and I've always stayed relatively close to recommended levels on vcore, but I never worry about temps until they get into the '90's.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You are way too conservative. I've run cpus for well over a decade, with temps into the low '90's at times (though usually high '70's is more typical) 24/7 with seti@home with optimized apps, and I've never fried a cpu. Temps are somewhat important to chip longevity, but voltage has a much greater impact. I've never use h20/etc, and I've always stayed relatively close to recommended levels on vcore, but I never worry about temps until they get into the '90's.

Under their attempts to hold costs down with a warranty regime, they would never increase the TjMax on these cores to 105C unless they thought it safe to run at a range of lower temperatures. The so-called "thermal spec" seems to be as much for case design guidelines as anything, but the measurable or estimated "TCASE" spec is fully 10C lower than the cores.

IF the TCASE spec is in the low 70s like Sandy Bridge, it means you're certainly OK if the core temperatures are in the low 80s under full load. And that's as much for Intel's cost-control -- as well as your system's longevity.

By the way -- anybody know the TCASE thermal spec for the Ivy Bridge?

Certainly the main worry is voltage, but you may need a little less voltage if you can hold the temperatures down.

 

[Ben90]

Once you're going to the trouble of delidding, why not skip the lid entirely and mount the cooler right on the die?

A bit riskier, but eliminates the problem of TIM and balancing the spreader etc. entirely.

For the name of science!

You are probably right that it might be less work and produce better results; however, I'm glad we are just playing around with a few variables. This helps us understand the TIM vs solder debacle a lot more than just removing the IHS entirely.

 

[2is]

For the name of science!

You are probably right that it might be less work and produce better results; however, I'm glad we are just playing around with a few variables. This helps us understand the TIM vs solder debacle a lot more than just removing the IHS entirely.

It really doesn't. New manufacturing process, smaller surface area... There's more to it then just solder vs TIM.

 

[Smartazz]

You are way too conservative. I've run cpus for well over a decade, with temps into the low '90's at times (though usually high '70's is more typical) 24/7 with seti@home with optimized apps, and I've never fried a cpu. Temps are somewhat important to chip longevity, but voltage has a much greater impact. I've never use h20/etc, and I've always stayed relatively close to recommended levels on vcore, but I never worry about temps until they get into the '90's.

Thanks for the heads up. I too run DC so I like to keep temps low but if mid to high 70s is fine I'd like to lower fan speeds.

 

[Phynaz]

Never thought of wearing gloves. I'm going to do that for my heatsink install. Keeps TIM from getting all over.

Thanks for the idea

 

[Kenmitch]

You are so anal in a good way

Interesting so far....Waiting for the next round of updates!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You are so anal in a good way

Interesting so far....Waiting for the next round of updates!

Speaking of updates . . . Now that we've focused on the problem and probably brought it to Intel's attention, and now that we might decide that we'll "de-lid" if we choose to buy the IB, how will we know that the processor we buy doesn't come from a new production batch in which the problem has been "fixed?"

Even if one were to test it before moving forward and the temperatures look better than they should, we'd want to know about any "fixes." If the fix involved another soldering process, we could likely destroy the processor as we attempted to "fix it."

I've forgotten: are the processor caps stamped with a date?

 

[2is]

Easy... Intel is not going to change their assembly processes to appease a small handful of over clockers, so you don't have to worry about it. You're high and think way too highly of yourself if you think a few forum members stumbled across a discovery that dozens or maybe hundreds of Intel engineers didn't already know and now they're going to modify their assembly lines. So you can comfortably buy IB knowing it's going to have TIM.

 

[Diogenes2]

^ This...

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Easy... Intel is not going to change their assembly processes to appease a small handful of over clockers, so you don't have to worry about it. You're high and think way too highly of yourself if you think a few forum members stumbled across a discovery that dozens or maybe hundreds of Intel engineers didn't already know and now they're going to modify their assembly lines. So you can comfortably buy IB knowing it's going to have TIM.

You're attributing to much naivete to me. I've done enough web-searches over the past few weeks to know that the web's aflame on this topic. Some reviewers in published articles said they contacted Intel about it, but I have no idea how Intel would address it.

We're talking about a fairly low-tech problem. I don't think it would cost them a lot, just to use a different thermal material. Someone had wondered if they would go back to the indium-silver solder with Haswell. But of course, there were reasons why they chose to dump the established process.

I wouldn't know what they'd be capable of doing, if, for example, they released a new stepping. On the other hand, they have production facilities all over, but I don't know how that would affect their choices either.

Anyway, I'm a pessimist, and it's kept me out of trouble over a lot of things. If I'm going to shell out for the IB and then pop the lid on it, I can see myself imagining the worst scenario.

But one thing I'm sure of: the various manufacturers watch these web-site forums. Call us "enthusiasts" or whatever . . . . we're guinea pigs . . .

 

[graysky]

No offense guys but this is how these are produced. If you want to overclock and you feel the temps are limiting you, read some guides on de-lidding your 3770K and replace the TIM with one of your own choice.

 

[2is]

And I've done enough searches to know its a small handful of people complaining about it over and over. Intel isn't going to change anything. Why would they change their entire assembly line? Are you going to go AMD if not?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Meow need result meow.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

And I've done enough searches to know its a small handful of people complaining about it over and over. Intel isn't going to change anything. Why would they change their entire assembly line? Are you going to go AMD if not?

Well, if I beat this dead horse some more, we can make dog food and meatloaf. Or meatloaf from the dogfood.

Speaking of pet-food, BallaTheFeared wants some red meat. There's enough out there -- links I and others posted -- You can pretty much assure yourself that the time spent tediously removing the cap and applying a good remedy is going to lower your temps for an over-clock. I want to see IDontcare's results, but it won't be a decision-factor at this point. If I buy the i7-3770K, the de-lidding will be a "done deal."

 

[cbn]

And the one thing that would have cost them more money in the long run is in-field fails that must be covered by warranty. No one wants that, the risk of it is one of the huge incentives that process engineers have in scaling existing solutions versus implementing brand new solutions like HKMG or 3D xtors.

We had a huge in-field fail issue at TI when we were the first to introduce a lower-k dielectric material into the BEOL (we used HSQ vs everyone else using SiO2 at the time) and we didn't enough testing to capture the reality of stress-induced cracking that would happen in the dielectric from thermal cycling. Thereafter we were keen to never repeat that mistake, it was extremely costly (hundreds of millions of dollars in warranty charges).

With Intel changing so much of the xtor structure at 22nm you can bet they did extensive/exhaustive internal testing to ensure the risks were fully identified and mitigated. It makes engineering and financial sense to conclude the shift in soldering the IHS to the CPU at 32nm to now just putting a nice malleable TIM at that interface at 22nm (at great expense in terms of lost revenue in all product segments) must have been done for stress and thermal-cycling reasons.

Great info!!

 

[Ben90]

It really doesn't. New manufacturing process, smaller surface area... There's more to it then just solder vs TIM.

While you are correct that there is a lot more to it. I disagree in that for optimal science we need to go step by step.

 

[cbn]

For the name of science!

You are probably right that it might be less work and produce better results; however, I'm glad we are just playing around with a few variables. This helps us understand the TIM vs solder debacle a lot more than just removing the IHS entirely.

+1 !!!

 

[Idontcare]

Once you're going to the trouble of delidding, why not skip the lid entirely and mount the cooler right on the die?

A bit riskier, but eliminates the problem of TIM and balancing the spreader etc. entirely.

I did that with my video card (see thread here) and have every intention of making a decent attempt of it with my 3770k. Just not right away, I want to get some other tests done first because there is always a chance of destroying my CPU with direct-contact testing and if that happens I want to at least have all the other data beforehand.

IDC, are you planning to test anything other than NT-H1 under the hood?

I would be very curious to see how those liquid metal TIMs function, preferably both under IHS and also between IHS and HSF. Seems like those would be the best thing short of solder like Intel used previously.

And that's another topic - would it be possible to use solder somehow under there?

I might try some indigo extreme, but that is pretty much an irreversible situation given that the bare CPU die itself is involved.

When I used indigo extreme before on my 2600k I had to re-lap both the IHS and my NH-D14 in order to fully remove it all. Removing it from the CPU chip would most likely result in catastrophic failure, so if I put it on there its going to be the very last test I do because it will be permanent.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

. . . .

I might try some indigo extreme, but that is pretty much an irreversible situation given that the bare CPU die itself is involved.

When I used indigo extreme before on my 2600k I had to re-lap both the IHS and my NH-D14 in order to fully remove it all. Removing it from the CPU chip would most likely result in catastrophic failure, so if I put it on there its going to be the very last test I do because it will be permanent.

Do you think the Indigo Xtreme could bond with the silicon? I thought it would most likely just bond with the metal cap.

Of course, the permanence of it sort of restores the status-quo of the earlier Intel process. That being said, the direct contact with the heatsink (as opposed to the IHS) would then present a sort of dilemma. . . .

 

[2is]

Well, if I beat this dead horse some more, we can make dog food and meatloaf. Or meatloaf from the dogfood.

Speaking of pet-food, BallaTheFeared wants some red meat. There's enough out there -- links I and others posted -- You can pretty much assure yourself that the time spent tediously removing the cap and applying a good remedy is going to lower your temps for an over-clock. I want to see IDontcare's results, but it won't be a decision-factor at this point. If I buy the i7-3770K, the de-lidding will be a "done deal."

I'm not saying you can't lower temps. I'm saying this isn't some great, previously unknown discovery, and Intel isn't going to do anything about it. Anyone thinking they will is deluding themselves IMO.