• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month

LTC8K6

Lifer
Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "
 
I am on the fence about torture. But I also see people's point in not torturing. When we torture a person, we are in essence saying the ends justify the means and I am not so sure that is right. We say we are better than the Bin Ladens and Saddamns of the world, those kinds of folks torture people, should we not be better than them?
 
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

What a relief. I guess we don't really need to execute whoever did it like we did to the Japanese.
 
As any ill informed piece of shit that reads Powerline shouldn't know....those numbers came from the Justice Department, you know Bush's guys, not the LIBRUL MSM.

These numbers weren't pulled out of thin air, they're in the fucking memos.

 
Waterboarding as restricted in the reports was not IMO torture. However, waterboarding exceeding the restrictions might qualify.

The waterboarding these 3 people underwent was minimal and to my mind does not meet the criteria for torture.

But why ruin a perfectly good story.
 
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|


Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|


Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

oxymoron
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Harvey

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|

Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

There's nothing hypcritical about it.

1. I don't "condone" any such thing. There are any number of valid reasons why a woman would chose to terminate a pregnancy. I'm not going to judge each and every one of them, and you're not qualified to do so, either.

2. A woman's right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term is not the subject of this Thread. Thanks for the straw man bullshit.

However, if YOU don't support a woman's freedom to choose what happens to her own body and life, but you condone torture in any form, that would make YOU the hypocrite... TROLL!
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|


Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

Yet you condone killing people, how hypocritical.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Harvey

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|

Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

There's nothing hypcritical about it.

1. I don't "condone" any such thing. There are any number of valid reasons why a woman would chose to terminate a pregnancy. I'm not going to judge each and every one of them, and you're not qualified to do so, either.

2. A woman't right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term is not the subject of this Thread. Thanks for the straw man bullshit.

However, if YOU don't support a woman's freedom to choose what happens to her own body and life, but you condone torture in any form, that would make YOU the hypocrite... TROLL!

So a woman can commit murder of an innocent unborn child... thats ok in your book.

But a mass murder gets slapped around a bit for information and you move on into left wing madness spin.

Torture is such a subjective word...murder is not.

 
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|


Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

Yet you condone killing people, how hypocritical.

There is a difference between the innocent and the guilty.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Just for the record...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...ves/2009/04/023451.php

"It turns out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators, as the liberal MSM widely reported. Instead, according to Joseph Abrams of Fox News, 183 represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on him. Abrams cites a 2007 Red Cross report which states that the terror mastermind was subjected to a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

Thanks for that crock of BULLSHIT! from an obvious right wingnut site. You're arguing semantics if you distinguish between " the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face" and the number of waterboarding sessions. EACH time water is poured over him after he regains breathing can be viewed as another waterboarding event, regardless of the number of days over which the TORTURE took place.

Anyone who condones such treatment is a disgrace to every human value our nation has held sacred for over 230 years. They dishonor our nation, our history and our people. They demean the value of every American life sacrificed in the name of defending our nation against the very evil they would have us become.

Unfortunately, readers of the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc. now have a vastly distorted picture of what the CIA did to KSM. However, I doubt that the public as a whole much cares how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer in order to cause him to tell us what he knew. "

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|


Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

Go bomb an abortion clinic biblethumping idiot.
 
So go look at the Red Cross report yourself. No one is asking you to believe Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/042809_redcross.pdf

The ICRC did not rely on Bush admin officials as far as I can tell. They did their own investigation.

They interviewed detainees and the report has the detainee's own words about waterboarding. Including Mohammed's own words.

He was not waterboarded 183 times in one month, according to Mohammed and the Red Cross. He was waterboarded five times in one month.

As for me, nothing in the report is torture as far as I am concerned, so I don't care how many times he was waterboarded or whatever.

Obama will continue the same practices as well. He may rename them, or simply stop talking in public about them, but he knows they are sometimes necessary and he will continue to approve them as the need arises.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

So a woman can commit murder of an innocent unborn child... thats ok in your book.

Under what statute, in what jurisdiction that permits a woman to terminate, please explain how legally terminating a pregnancy is murder. Until you can, you're blowing propoganda smoke.

But a mass murder gets slapped around a bit for information and you move on into left wing madness spin.

Like every other right wingnut defender of your thankfully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals, you can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but even if he had, with the exception of a few murderous perverts like you, WE are Americans, and WE don't torture.

Torture is such a subjective word...murder is not.

As it applies to waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation" techniques used by the Bushwhackos, TORTURE is NOT subjective. In 2002, Donald Rumsfeld's attorney, William Haynes, requested info from S.E.R.E., the U.S. Airforce's Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape program regarding administration's intended use of "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

This is a small specialized career field in the US Air Force comprised of approximately 325 enlisted personnel. Air Force SERE Specialists train aircrew members and high risk of capture personnel from all branches of the military. The students are trained in skills which allow them to survive in all climatic conditions as well as how to survive while being held captive.

Per their name, the purpose of S.E.R.E. is to train our troops who may be captured to survive possible torture by, and to resist giving any helpful information to, our enemies. Their mission is specifically NOT to describe or define methods to be used by our own intelligence agencies to interrogate possible enemies captured by U.S. forces.

S.E.R.E is the specific military group tasked to understand and teach our troops to resist torture.

S.E.R.E is NOT tasked to develop means and methods of torturing those we capture.

S.E.R.E's report to Haynes explicitly:
  1. labels "enhanced interrogation" techniques TORTURE.
  2. says "enhanced interrogation" techniques DO NOT WORK.
  3. says "enhanced interrogation" techniques could have "potential impact on the safety of U.S. personnel captured by current and future adversaries."
Here's the complete report from S.E.R.E. to Haynes.

OPERATIONAL ISSUES PERTAINING TO THE USE of PHYSICAL/PSYCHOLIGCAL [sic] COERCION [sic] IN INTERROGATION
An Overview

(U) INTRODUCTION: Throughout history, interrogation has frequently involved the application of various physical anellor psychological means of inducing duress. The objective of this application was to elicit information, compel the prisoner to produce propaganda, submit to political conversion, and or as a vehicle for intimidation. Throughout most of recorded history, the rights of prisoners were limited at best. The concept of international law that governs the treatment of prisoners is a modem phenomenon that remains the topic of continuing debate. This discussion is not intended to address the myriad legal, ethical, or moral implications of torture; rather, this document will seeks to describe the key operational considerations relative to the use of physical and psychological pressures.

(U) PRIMARY OBJECTIVE of INTERROGATION: The primary objective of interrogation within the context of intelligence is the collecting of timely, accurate, and reliable information. The question that should immediately come to mind is whether the application of physical and/or psychological duress will enhance the interrogator's ability to achieve this objective. The requirement to obtain information from an uncooperative source as quickly as possible-in time to prevent, for example, an impending terrorist attack that could result in loss of life has been forwarded as a compelling argument for the use of torture. Conceptually, proponents envision the application of torture as a means to expedite the exploitation process. In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as an alternative to the more time-consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption. (NOTE: The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.)

(U) OPERATIONAL CONCERNS:

(U) As noted previously, upwards of 90 percent of interrogations have been successful through the exclusive use of a direct approach, where a degree of rapport is established with the prisoner. Once any means of duress has been purposefully applied to the prisoner, the formerly cooperative relationship can not be reestablished. In addition, the prisoner's level of resolve to resist cooperating with the interrogator will likely be increased as a result of harsh or brutal treatment.

(U) For skilled interrogators, the observation of subtle nonverbal behaviors provides an invaluable assessment of the prisoner's psychological and emotional state. This offers important insights into how the prisoner can be most effectively leveraged into compliance. Further, it often enables the interrogator to form a reasonably accurate assessment of the prisoner's veracity in answering pertinent questions. The prisoner's physical response to the pain inflicted by an interrogator would obliterate such nuance and deprive the interrogator of these key tools.

(U) The key operational deficits related to the use of torture is its impact on the reliability and accuracy of the information provided. If an interrogator produces information that resulted from the application of physical and psychological duress, the reliability and accuracy of this information is in doubt. In other words, a subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer, or many answers in order to get the pain to stop.
  1. (U) In numerous cases, interrogation has been used as a tool of mass intimidation by oppressive regimes. Often, the interrogators operate from the assumption (often incorrect) that a prisoner possesses information of interest. When the prisoner is not forthcoming, physical and psychological pressures are increased. Eventually, the prisoner will provide answers that they feel the interrogator is seeking. In this instance, the information is neither reliable nor accurate (note: A critical element of the interrogation process is to assess the prisoner's knowledgeability. A reasoned assessment of what the prisoner should know, based on experience, training, position, and access should drive the questioning process.)
(U) Another important aspect of the debate over the use of torture is the consideration of its potential impact on the safety of U.S. personnel captured by current and future adversaries. The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel. While this would have little impact on those regimes or organizations that already employ torture as a standard means of operating, it could serve as the critical impetus for those that are currently weighing the potential gains and risks associated with the torture of U.S. persons to accept torture as an acceptable option.

(U) CONCLUSION: The application of extreme physical and/or psychological duress (torture) has some serious operational deficits, most notably, the potential to result in unreliable information. This is not to say that the manipulation of the subject's environment in an effort to dislocate their expectations and induce emotional responses is not effective. On the contrary, systematic manipulation of the subject's environment is likely to result in a subject that can be exploited for intelligence information and other national strategic concerns.

HQ JPRA·CC/25 Jut 02JOSN 654-2509
CLASSIFIED BY: MULTIPLE SOURCES
REASON: EO 12958 (A, C)
DECLASSIFY: Xi or X4

Key sentences and phrases:
  • The question that should immediately come to mind is whether the application of physical and/or psychological duress will enhance the interrogator's ability to achieve this objective.
  • The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption.
  • The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.
  • Once any means of duress has been purposefully applied to the prisoner, the formerly cooperative relationship can not be reestablished. In addition, the prisoner's level of resolve to resist cooperating with the interrogator will likely be increased as a result of harsh or brutal treatment.
  • For skilled interrogators, the observation of subtle nonverbal behaviors provides an invaluable assessment of the prisoner's psychological and emotional state. This offers important insights into how the prisoner can be most effectively leveraged into compliance. Further, it often enables the interrogator to form a reasonably accurate assessment of the prisoner's veracity in answering pertinent questions. The prisoner's physical response to the pain inflicted by an interrogator would obliteratesuch nuance and deprive the interrogator of these key tools.
  • ... a subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer, or many answers in order to get the pain to stop.
  • The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel.
Now, you have the express statement from S.E.R.E., THE authority on the subject, that labels the "enhanced interrogation" techniques defined and specified in Haynes' request, including waterboarding, as TORTURE. It isn't the least bit "subjective."
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Harvey

You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right. Even if he had, we don't care "how many times, or in what manner, we doused this killer" because ONCE is ONCE too many times, and most of us are not the evil you would have us become. Obviously, you already are. :|

Yet you condone the butchering of unborn babies.... how hypocritcal.

There's nothing hypcritical about it.

1. I don't "condone" any such thing. There are any number of valid reasons why a woman would chose to terminate a pregnancy. I'm not going to judge each and every one of them, and you're not qualified to do so, either.

2. A woman't right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term is not the subject of this Thread. Thanks for the straw man bullshit.

However, if YOU don't support a woman's freedom to choose what happens to her own body and life, but you condone torture in any form, that would make YOU the hypocrite... TROLL!

So a woman can commit murder of an innocent unborn child... thats ok in your book.

But a mass murder gets slapped around a bit for information and you move on into left wing madness spin.

Torture is such a subjective word...murder is not.

Wow you're a retard.


Just saying.
 
Originally posted by: marincounty
I always tune to Fox News when I want accurate information on waterboarding. They are the waterboarding experts.

I don't know water sports and tea-bagging aren't really my thing.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
-snip-
You can't provide ONE verifiable piece of evidence that he gave us ANY useful information, but you're right.

I've seen you make this claim numerous times here. I.e., "torture" (in this instance I prefer the term 'harsh interogation methods' but I'll roll with it) has not produced any useful information.

We've had several CIA and intel chiefs say otherwise. (And at least one was a Clinton, not Bush appointee)

Now we've just seen Obama also admiting that it has produced useful info. His objection is that it could have produced by other means, but not even he denies that it produced useful intel.

As far as "evidence" in this particular person's case, we're waiting for Obama to release the memos on that. In the meantime it's hardly fair to make the challenge about 'evidence'.

BTW: Anybody who believed the guy was waterboarded 183 times is loony, it's patently absurd on the face of it. I'll also note that we've seen several journalists etc get waterboarded, not even they themslves considered each time water was poured on them a seperate instance of waterboarding. That would be like taking a beating, but calling it seven beatings because that's how many times you got punched.

If you care to, and have time please reprint that definition of torture you have (I only ask because I suspect you keep these in amcro). I've seen many here claim that torture is NEVER ok, I think your definition etc will surprise you.

Fern
 
Originally posted by: dphantom
Waterboarding as restricted in the reports was not IMO torture. However, waterboarding exceeding the restrictions might qualify.

The waterboarding these 3 people underwent was minimal and to my mind does not meet the criteria for torture.

But why ruin a perfectly good story.
Why not tell us what is going on in your mind to reach those conclusions? Having seen the method's demonstrated, I am at a loss as to how it could be considered anything less than torturous.

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
He was not waterboarded 183 times in one month, according to Mohammed and the Red Cross. He was waterboarded five times in one month.
Five sessions, apparently about 37 times a session according to the total mentioned in the memos from the Justice Department.
 
Originally posted by: Fern
BTW: Anybody who believed the guy was waterboarded 183 times is loony, it's patently absurd on the face of it. I'll also note that we've seen several journalists etc get waterboarded, not even they themslves considered each time water was poured on them a seperate instance of waterboarding. That would be like taking a beating, but calling it seven beatings because that's how many times you got punched.
It's like someone being subjected to several beatings, totaling 183 punches, and you've got to be far off your rocker to miscomprehend that.
 
Back
Top