Just say no to unions

[fskimospy]

Tariffs are a two-way street.

We slap tariffs on other countries products and they slap them on our products. The result being that we export nothing. That's hardly desirable.

Economically we need to have Europe and Asia bombed all to h3ll again while we remain unscathed, then we can manufacture all the products and sell to them.

Tariffs cannot replicate that.

Fern

It is frequently stated that US postwar prosperity came from our competitors being destroyed in WW2, but this is not accurate. The easiest and most obvious reason is that although the main competitors for our manufactured goods lost their ability to produce them, the main customers for our manufactured goods also lost the ability to buy them.

 

[fskimospy]

In this country's founding days there was a great debate over whether to buy railroad rail stock from France. I forget who said it, but my favorite point went something like this.

If we buy the rails, we'll have the rails and France will have the money.

If we do not buy the rails, we'll have the money and France will have the rails.

If we make the rails, we'll have the money and the rails.

That still holds today.

That ignores comparative advantage.

 

[Genx87]

Workers in the protected economy commanded a larger share of the nation's economic prosperity than they do under the current un-protected economy.

And the rest of America had to pay more for goods.

 

[Genx87]

There was a commercial over here that is completely tongue in cheek but was made by Swedish Unions. Some of it might not make sense to non-swedes but it's funny nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgMIRF7acw

http://www.thelocal.se/20140120/swedish-union-takes-swipe-at-us-lifestyle

I don't understand why unions don't work in the US. Is it just because there are so few of them? It's gotta be tough to have a union with 500 people when your competition of 15,000 people aren't in one.

Considering the stagnant nature of income it would seem a good time to start organizing labor.

Unions failed because they pushed the cost of labor beyond the benefit of keeping in within our country. As more manufacturing jobs left so did the clout of unions. Unions in the early 50s represented about 36% of the private workforce. I believe they represent about 6-8% now. The only place Unions are still somewhat flourishing is within govt. But that is because we cant export those jobs yet.

 

[IronWing]

And the rest of America had to pay more for goods.

True. And America was still better for it.

 

[fskimospy]

Unions failed because they pushed the cost of labor beyond the benefit of keeping in within our country. As more manufacturing jobs left so did the clout of unions. Unions in the early 50s represented about 36% of the private workforce. I believe they represent about 6-8% now. The only place Unions are still somewhat flourishing is within govt. But that is because we cant export those jobs yet.

That doesn't make sense considering the history of unions in other industrialized countries, Canada included. While the decline of union membership in the US is of course the product of a ton of different factors, one of the biggest ones is simply that US public policy has become significantly less union friendly over the last 70 years.

 

[Genx87]

True. And America was still better for it.

According to whom? You?

I prefer to be able to buy items for market value. Not a price determined by an economic wall put up by out govt. Do you like the high cost of prescription medicines in this country?

 

[IronWing]

According to whom? You?

I prefer to be able to buy items for market value. Not a price determined by an economic wall put up by out govt. Do you like the high cost of prescription medicines in this country?

I prefer not to compete on labor costs with near slave labor from third world hellholes.

 

[Texashiker]

Because California has lots of high earning highly educated professionals along with lots of poorly educated illegals ?

If california would reduce the amount of welfare those illegals get there would not be so many of them.

Liberal California also has a much higher per capita income than right-wing Texas.

Which is a reason why California should be ashamed, especially for a state who considers itself a progressive.

California has one of the highest income per capita in nation, and it also has the nations largest population of homeless people.

 

[Genx87]

I prefer not to compete on labor costs with near slave labor from third world hellholes.

I'm sure we would all love to overcharge for our services. But you didn't answer my question about the high cost of prescription drugs.

 

[AViking]

Unions failed because they pushed the cost of labor beyond the benefit of keeping in within our country. As more manufacturing jobs left so did the clout of unions. Unions in the early 50s represented about 36% of the private workforce. I believe they represent about 6-8% now. The only place Unions are still somewhat flourishing is within govt. But that is because we cant export those jobs yet.

I can understand this, on some level, with respect to manufacturing and import/export industries. However if you work in retail and pretty much any service sector it makes little sense to not have union representation. People do not negotiate on their behalf to get a standard of living on par with the rest of the developed world so something will need to change unless you have evidence to support that Americans don't want higher wages, longer vacation, healthcare coverage, paid maternity leave, and all the other benefits that the developed world enjoys. Wages have been stagnant in the US for 20 years. That leads me to believe that unions would do some good in this country.

 

[fskimospy]

I can understand this, on some level, with respect to manufacturing and import/export industries. However if you work in retail and pretty much any service sector it makes little sense to not have union representation. People do not negotiate on their behalf to get a standard of living on par with the rest of the developed world so something will need to change unless you have evidence to support that Americans don't want higher wages, longer vacation, healthcare coverage, paid maternity leave, and all the other benefits that the developed world enjoys. Wages have been stagnant in the US for 20 years. That leads me to believe that unions would do some good in this country.

It really comes down to deliberate public policy choices on the part of the US much more than any change in global competitiveness. As you mentioned, unions are much more prevalent in Europe despite them being subject to the same pressures.

I would say that it all started with Taft-Hartley.

 

[Atreus21]

Workers in the protected economy commanded a larger share of the nation's economic prosperity than they do under the current un-protected economy.

...whereas everyone not employed in the protected industry was forced to pay higher prices to keep this industry artificially afloat. Screw over millions of consumers to keep thousands of people in a job which pays arbitrarily high. Brilliant.

 

[AViking]

Vetoed by Truman and still put into law.

However that was almost 70 years ago. Surely we can change for the better today.

 

[smackababy]

...whereas everyone not employed in the protected industry was forced to pay higher prices to keep this industry artificially afloat. Screw over millions of consumers to keep thousands of people in a job which pays arbitrarily high. Brilliant.

But America was better for it!

Operating on an assembly line is skilled labor and should command a high salary! Otherwise, how are these high school drop outs going to support their families?

 

[Zorba]

...whereas everyone not employed in the protected industry was forced to pay higher prices to keep this industry artificially afloat. Screw over millions of consumers to keep thousands of people in a job which pays arbitrarily high. Brilliant.

Those millions of consumers also made more money because their jobs were protected too. Those thousands of people also had money to go buy the products and services of those other consumers. You know considering employees and consumers are the same people, and generally the being an employee has to come first.

But I guess now you like that millions of tax payers get screwed over paying for welfare, so a few thousand shareholders can become rich? But hey, at least your jeans only cost $30 instead of $40, nevermind they will wear out twice as fast and don't fit right and the cashier you bought them from has to be on food stamps.

 

[BoberFett]

Those millions of consumers also made more money because their jobs were protected too. Those thousands of people also had money to go buy the products and services of those other consumers. You know considering employees and consumers are the same people, and generally the being an employee has to come first.

But I guess now you like that millions of tax payers get screwed over paying for welfare, so a few thousand shareholders can become rich? But hey, at least your jeans only cost $30 instead of $40, nevermind they will wear out twice as fast and don't fit right and the cashier you bought them from has to be on food stamps.

Have you ever been in an old house? Bedrooms were tiny. Closets were 4 sqft because people owned a couple sets of clothes. Single car garages because families only had one car. There was one small family/living room. Kitchens were small, with barely enough room for two people to help prepare a meal.

Now we all have massive bedroom suites, with huge master bathrooms and gigantic walk in closets to hold hundreds of outfits. Three car garages are the norm because there are at least two cars and probably a couple toys like motorcycles, campers or snowmobiles. Now we have homes with a living room, family room, and maybe a separate theater room, all filled with expensive furniture and gadgets of all kinds. Kitchens are grand affairs with granite countertops as far as the eye can see.

If you want things to be like the good ol' days, then start living like people did back then. You'll find it's very affordable. It's amazing how much "liberals" sound like "conservatives" when they pine for the good ol' days that never really existed.

 

[Matt1970]

I can understand this, on some level, with respect to manufacturing and import/export industries. However if you work in retail and pretty much any service sector it makes little sense to not have union representation. People do not negotiate on their behalf to get a standard of living on par with the rest of the developed world so something will need to change unless you have evidence to support that Americans don't want higher wages, longer vacation, healthcare coverage, paid maternity leave, and all the other benefits that the developed world enjoys. Wages have been stagnant in the US for 20 years. That leads me to believe that unions would do some good in this country.

We can unionize till the cows come home but driving up the costs of goods that have to compete with stuff made at sweat shops is shooting ourselves in the foot. It's basically what we have been doing for the past 50 years. We need to either get people more willing to shell out a few extra bucks for American Made products or adjust our tariffs to make up for foreign governments manipulating their currency and building stuff in sweat shops. Outsourcing shares some blame but we can't keep having our $8 Walmart bluejeans and expect to keep jobs here in America.

 

[AViking]

That's a cultural issue. Boberfett and Matt1970 bring up two interesting points that are really worth focusing on. Nobody says you have to have a McMansion yet we keep building like that. If we want to stop competing with China and racing towards the bottom then we will need to pay higher prices for goods. Jeans have no business costing $8 unless we truly want to promote and encourage sweatshops.

In several cases it's cheaper for us to fly to the US to buy stuff than to buy it in Europe. Pretty much all electronics. Friends fly to the states to go clothes shopping. I can fly rt from Stockholm to New York for less than $700. One laptop and a few pairs of jeans covers that price differential.

 

[bshole]

According to whom? You?

I prefer to be able to buy items for market value. Not a price determined by an economic wall put up by out govt. Do you like the high cost of prescription medicines in this country?

Well you are paying health care at market value. How's that going for ya? No unions to blame. Consumes 20% of GDP compared to 5% in 1960. Projected to hit 30% in another decade.

When your wife or child gets cancer and her expenditures exceed the lifetime benefits of your insurance, should she be cut off of from further care if she can't pay for it? Thats what the free market would do.

Prescription medicines prices are determined by big pharma not by the government. Thats the free market baby!

 

[bshole]

Have you ever been in an old house? Bedrooms were tiny. Closets were 4 sqft because people owned a couple sets of clothes. Single car garages because families only had one car. There was one small family/living room. Kitchens were small, with barely enough room for two people to help prepare a meal.

.

I own such a home (built in 1949). One thing I have noticed is that actual QUALITY of the older building is VASTLY superior to modern homes.

Finish material is usually much higher quality. Mine has a beatiful patina now.

Have lots of interesting features that are rarely seen anymore like whole-house fans and pier and beam foundations

Much more character and do not have the cookie cutter feel that the new homes have.

Usually smaller and cosier. McMansions actually degrade quality of life IMHO.

Come on over to my house Bober, I will grill you a politcally correct meal and you can marvel at how the unwashed masses live. Not all of us live in McMansions like yourself. We are none the worse off for it!!

 

[Genx87]

Well you are paying health care at market value. How's that going for ya? No unions to blame. Consumes 20% of GDP compared to 5% in 1960. Projected to hit 30% in another decade.

When your wife or child gets cancer and her expenditures exceed the lifetime benefits of your insurance, should she be cut off of from further care if she can't pay for it? Thats what the free market would do.

Prescription medicines prices are determined by big pharma not by the government. Thats the free market baby!

There are plenty of cases of people leaving our country to have procedures done in another country for cheaper. Prescription drugs have a protectionist policy enforced by the US Govt keeping the prices high. If it were truely free market we could buy medicines from other countries for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Zorba]

Have you ever been in an old house? Bedrooms were tiny. Closets were 4 sqft because people owned a couple sets of clothes. Single car garages because families only had one car. There was one small family/living room. Kitchens were small, with barely enough room for two people to help prepare a meal.

Now we all have massive bedroom suites, with huge master bathrooms and gigantic walk in closets to hold hundreds of outfits. Three car garages are the norm because there are at least two cars and probably a couple toys like motorcycles, campers or snowmobiles. Now we have homes with a living room, family room, and maybe a separate theater room, all filled with expensive furniture and gadgets of all kinds. Kitchens are grand affairs with granite countertops as far as the eye can see.

If you want things to be like the good ol' days, then start living like people did back then. You'll find it's very affordable. It's amazing how much "liberals" sound like "conservatives" when they pine for the good ol' days that never really existed.

Notice, I never said anything about the good ol' days. I was pointing out you weren't only protecting workers at the determent of consumers, since they are the same people. You protect the workers, giving the consumers more income at the cost of things being a more expensive. I thought this was pretty basic economics, not pining for days gone by.

Just for the record, though, both of the houses my Mom grew up (50s-60s) in were bigger than any house I've ever lived in. That was on a single engineer's salary and a stay at home wife. They also had a small lake house. So yes, there were small houses back in the day, but there still are today, not the mention the thousands of apartments in every city.

In college I lived in a house built in 1903 in the frontier of Oklahoma, that was big enough to be split into a upstairs/downstairs duplex. The rooms, including the kitchen were all decent size. Before it was split, it had 6 bedrooms, nice kitchen and two living rooms. The closets did suck, though and the stairs we scary.

 

[fskimospy]

There are plenty of cases of people leaving our country to have procedures done in another country for cheaper. Prescription drugs have a protectionist policy enforced by the US Govt keeping the prices high. If it were truely free market we could buy medicines from other countries for a fraction of the cost.

Drug reimportation is actually a very complex issue and the savings are unclear:

Here's a good NIH overview on it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1936287/

 

[Zorba]

We can unionize till the cows come home but driving up the costs of goods that have to compete with stuff made at sweat shops is shooting ourselves in the foot. It's basically what we have been doing for the past 50 years. We need to either get people more willing to shell out a few extra bucks for American Made products or adjust our tariffs to make up for foreign governments manipulating their currency and building stuff in sweat shops. Outsourcing shares some blame but we can't keep having our $8 Walmart bluejeans and expect to keep jobs here in America.

Pretty much this. We need to have tariffs that at least offset the difference in environmental and labor laws. So instead of racing the bottom, we say this is the minimum standard to have access to our economy, if you don't meet it, your goods will be taxed.