Just say no to unions

[Fern]

That seems to be the standard narrative told by folks who choose to export jobs but it was the removal of tariffs that makes exporting jobs economical. Protectionism worked, it just worked for the wrong people.

My example has nothing to do with tariffs.

We had a large paper manufacturer here. Their employees were unionized and went on strike. While I suspect the union was intransigent merely to make an example for the benefit of other employers in different states, the reason doesn't much matter. The company was forced into bankruptcy and a fellow from India came by and purchased all the equipment, packed it up and shipped it to India. I.e., those jobs were outsourced to India as a direct result of the unions actions.

Fern

 

[IronWing]

What was better about it exactly?

Workers in the protected economy commanded a larger share of the nation's economic prosperity than they do under the current un-protected economy.

 

[Fern]

Yes, they did, precisely that. And America was a better nation for it.

Tariffs are a two-way street.

We slap tariffs on other countries products and they slap them on our products. The result being that we export nothing. That's hardly desirable.

Economically we need to have Europe and Asia bombed all to h3ll again while we remain unscathed, then we can manufacture all the products and sell to them.

Tariffs cannot replicate that.

Fern

 

[IronWing]

My example has nothing to do with tariffs.

We had a large paper manufacturer here. Their employees were unionized and went on strike. While I suspect the union was intransigent merely to make an example for the benefit of other employers in different states, the reason doesn't much matter. The company was forced into bankruptcy and a fellow from India came by and purchased all the equipment, packed it up and shipped it to India. I.e., those jobs were outsourced to India as a direct result of the unions actions.

Fern

And then? With tariffs, the paper produced with low wage labor in India would not be coming back to compete with the remaining American firms. Those firms could then increase their market share to fill the void left by the bankrupt company.

 

[Fern]

And then? With tariffs, the paper produced with low wage labor in India would not be coming back to compete with the remaining American firms. Those firms could then increase their market share to fill the void left by the bankrupt company.

And they would lose all their market share in foreign markets.

I don't believe we can become a stand alone economy, not one we would like anyway.

And if we charged tariffs, the other countries would charge them on us. You know how US companies would get around that? They would set up operation in other countries (i.e., export jobs) to get around tariffs on products produced here. And yes, some foreign owned companies might set up over here to avoid our tariffs. But that would be an "us against the world" situation and results in national security issues.

Fern

 

[werepossum]

And what exactly did tariffs do that were good? Make foreign goods more expensive simply because they were foreign? Yeah! Go America!

Let's also take into account the average auto worker (unionized) makes $29 an hour before calculating benefits. Why should unskilled labor make $60,000 a year?

Tariffs made foreign goods more expensive so that American workers could make more money and American goods remain competitive in America.

Is the average auto worker unskilled labor? Seems to me that's a rather specialized skill, if not as rigorous as say electrician who must master a larger variety of skills.

My example has nothing to do with tariffs.

We had a large paper manufacturer here. Their employees were unionized and went on strike. While I suspect the union was intransigent merely to make an example for the benefit of other employers in different states, the reason doesn't much matter. The company was forced into bankruptcy and a fellow from India came by and purchased all the equipment, packed it up and shipped it to India. I.e., those jobs were outsourced to India as a direct result of the unions actions.

Fern

Yep, we got it going and coming. Greedy unions demanded wages beyond what the market would bear; greedy management abandoned their workers and went to cheap foreign labor to make more profit than the market would bear. In the end, both sides screwed themselves and the rest of us along with them. However, none of this happens without the politicians removing the import tariffs and duties.

Tariffs are a two-way street.

We slap tariffs on other countries products and they slap them on our products. The result being that we export nothing. That's hardly desirable.

Economically we need to have Europe and Asia bombed all to h3ll again while we remain unscathed, then we can manufacture all the products and sell to them.

Tariffs cannot replicate that.

Fern

That's true, but America is even now still the world's largest market. For example, we buy a quarter of the world's automobiles but generate half the world's automobile sales profit. We could easily have come out ahead by keeping our import tariffs and duties because everyone wants to be in this market. It's also worth pointing out that other nations use different mechanisms to accomplish the same goal, such as very expensive inspections or requirements for half ownership in all manufacturing ventures or set percentages of local content.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

A lot of seemingly liberal groups are hypocritical with regard to unions. CALPIRG ran demonstrations and fundraising efforts against Wal-Mart because Wal-Mart was demonstrably anti-union, but when CALPIRG staffers in LA tried to unionize over long hours and unfair wages, CALPIRG shuttered the office and fired everyone. It happened with the Massachusetts PIRG as well. Complaining about other people's behavior is so easy until you try it for yourself and realize, shit, maybe oppressing others for our own opportunistic goals isn't such a bad thing after all...

 

[BoberFett]

How do you provide evidence that proves something DIDN'T happen? That is impossible. I never had sex with my mother but I can provide NO evidence to prove it.

This explains a lot, actually.

 

[BoberFett]

Agreed; what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Unless that gander is wealthy, white and conservative.

<whisper>Pssssst... Hey dipshit... This thread has nothing to do with conservatives...</whisper>

 

[BoberFett]

Because California has lots of high earning highly educated professionals along with lots of poorly educated illegals ? Liberal California also has a much higher per capita income than right-wing Texas.

That's awesome, I'm so happy for you. I'm sure the incomes in SanFran where tiny shacks cost $1M is totally comparable to Texas.

Is that why people are starting to protest tech company employees pricing regular people out of their homes?

Sounds like everything is coming up roses out there in Nuttyvale, keep up the good work...

 

[Incorruptible]

Gotta love the hypocrisy of Media Matters. They don't want unions at their place but for other employers. Bunch of scumbags and once again showing how idiotic MM is. Is the left going to call them out?

 

[MongGrel]

I suspect it's the other way around. Exporting manufacturing jobs led to fewer jobs meaning fewer union members.

And in some cases union activity is what caused the exporting of manufacturing jobs.

Fern

That and corporate lawyers are actively working on creative ways of shutting them down completely.

Been there, done that.

I do not work for Boeing, but worked at another one that shut down the IAM in house, and they are currently at work doing it there.

 

[Matt1970]

This reminds me of the union that hired people to protest Walmart and their low wages. Problem is they paid those protesters minimum wage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPMHJoLYj2Q

 

[Incorruptible]

This reminds me of the union that hired people to protest Walmart and their low wages. Problem is they paid those protesters minimum wage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPMHJoLYj2Q

Gotta love the hypocrisy of the left. Media matters showed how useless they are and why they're so full of crap.

 

[Jhhnn]

It seems clear that Righties form their opinions from the headline spin, rather than the article itself.

MMFA is entirely reasonable in this initial rejection- the authenticity of workers desires needs to be verified, if only by checking the signatures. It's way too early in the process to vilify anybody.

Will you apply the same sort of reasoning the next time that Walmart has Union issues? Did you ever in the past?

If the MMFA is being hypocritical, and they may be, where does that put y'all?

 

[Zorba]

What was better about it exactly?

People had pensions and retirement benefits?

 

[Zorba]

Tariffs are a two-way street.

We slap tariffs on other countries products and they slap them on our products. The result being that we export nothing. That's hardly desirable.

Economically we need to have Europe and Asia bombed all to h3ll again while we remain unscathed, then we can manufacture all the products and sell to them.

Tariffs cannot replicate that.

Fern

I know this is very simplistic view, but we are a net importer of goods. So if we stopped buying crap from the outside and everyone else stopped buying our stuff. The other countries would be hurt worse than us.

Of course, a full shut down of trade would have horrible affects, but going back to smart tariffs wouldn't cause that. And every other country has some way around all the free trade laws, just like China holding their currency artificially low.

 

[MongGrel]

Gotta love the hypocrisy of the left. Media matters showed how useless they are and why they're so full of crap.

Everything you just posted sounds ignorant and has no bearing at all on the thread.

 

[Zorba]

Let's also take into account the average auto worker (unionized) makes $29 an hour before calculating benefits. Why should unskilled labor make $60,000 a year?

How exactly is auto manufacturing unskilled? Just go grab a random group of Wal-Mart workers and see how well the hold up on the assembly line.

Regardless, I have never understood why so many conservatives love to talk about how overpaid working-class jobs are, but no one in the history of management has ever been over paid. Why should a dude in a suit that got an MBA and does nothing but attend meetings get $40 million a year?

 

[trenchfoot]

The unions and the middle class are so joined at the hip that the simplest net search will provide a wealth of incontrovertible and irrefutable evidence that as the unions go, so goes the middle class.

From this point of view, one could argue that to be anti-union is to be against the very existence of the middle class.

The correlation between how the unions have diminished along with the economic downward spiral of the middle class is undeniable. The health of one indicates the condition of the other.

Every excuse anti-unionists come up with as to why unions aren't needed any more invariably ignores these facts of the matter.

I guess the middle class, which in my opinion represents the majority core of the nation, is bound to kill itself off from the infighting instigated by those who have the will and the wherewithal to take every single thing they can from the middle class for themselves.

They'll drive the middle class into the ranks of the poor where these former moderately prosperous folks will no longer have a voice in the body politic or a stake in the American dream, which is exactly where the rich and powerful wants them.

Such a pity to watch this process unfold.

 

[sandorski]

Do Non-Profit organizations ever Unionize?

 

[FalseChristian]

You don't think a person who works their butts off doing a boring, repetitive job should be properly enumerated? If Bill Gates had to do such a job he'd commit suicide.

 

[werepossum]

I know this is very simplistic view, but we are a net importer of goods. So if we stopped buying crap from the outside and everyone else stopped buying our stuff. The other countries would be hurt worse than us.

Of course, a full shut down of trade would have horrible affects, but going back to smart tariffs wouldn't cause that. And every other country has some way around all the free trade laws, just like China holding their currency artificially low.

In this country's founding days there was a great debate over whether to buy railroad rail stock from France. I forget who said it, but my favorite point went something like this.

If we buy the rails, we'll have the rails and France will have the money.

If we do not buy the rails, we'll have the money and France will have the rails.

If we make the rails, we'll have the money and the rails.

That still holds today.

 

[michal1980]

It seems clear that Righties form their opinions from the headline spin, rather than the article itself.

MMFA is entirely reasonable in this initial rejection- the authenticity of workers desires needs to be verified, if only by checking the signatures. It's way too early in the process to vilify anybody.

Will you apply the same sort of reasoning the next time that Walmart has Union issues? Did you ever in the past?

If the MMFA is being hypocritical, and they may be, where does that put y'all?

LOL.. you are so full of shit.

If Walmart was rejecting any union activity you'd be one of the first going off on them. But if its your buddy then its 'reasonable'.

 

[AViking]

There was a commercial over here that is completely tongue in cheek but was made by Swedish Unions. Some of it might not make sense to non-swedes but it's funny nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgMIRF7acw

http://www.thelocal.se/20140120/swedish-union-takes-swipe-at-us-lifestyle

I don't understand why unions don't work in the US. Is it just because there are so few of them? It's gotta be tough to have a union with 500 people when your competition of 15,000 people aren't in one.

Considering the stagnant nature of income it would seem a good time to start organizing labor.