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Jury orders cigarette makers to pay $145 billion in punitive damages!

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This comment should make me REAL popular... 😛



In MY opinion (which of course is worth absolutely nothing,except to me) everyone who wins a lawsuit claiming they were made to do something they normally wouldn't have chosen to do by advertising should immediately be made a ward of the courts, because obviously they're incompetent to run their own lives if they're THAT easily manipulated.

 
Unexperg8ed: Including your 12 year old? Did you give this any thought, or are you running completely on empty?
 
Wow it is a sad day when people can earn elite status here on anandtech and still be that naive, sorry harv but even when I was 12 or 13 I had some idea of what I should be doing and shouldnt and if you did not I feel sorry either for you you or your parents who did not have the capacity to raise you in such a manner that you can differentiate between what you should be doing and shoudn't.

i didn't actually try smoking untill i was 18, yes of legal age-why because my parnets took it upon themselves(as they should) to inform me of the dangers of smoking and how it is a choice that I should make when I was older-which I did. I am sorry that so many feel the general populace is so influenced by societal norms/tv and such that they are really just mindless idiots that do what the tube tells them to, it is a sad day when such a large populace can truly act as sheep, or at least you think so.

So harvey yeah I do think that at age 12 or 13 people can reason to some degree, enought so that they know, at least nowadays that smoking is bad for you, as you know crossing the street witout looking both ways can be potentially hazerdous to your health.

really how people can be "elite" by posting moronic garbage like that is beyond me
 
You need to respect Harvey and his beliefs. If I remember correctly Harvey grew up in a time before the warning labels were put on the pack, and most of the people he knew smoked. He has seen the health risks of smoking and he feels tobacco companies have committed fraud by misleading the american public.

If you didn't know, the Frank Statement came out in the 1950's, which said that the tobacco companies will research their product to determine if there are health risks. The reports came back with inconsistency. Its hard to pin smoking and lung cancer down because everyone who smokes does not get sick. Some people don't even experience shortness of breath. However, there is a synergy especially with a product like asbestos. If someone smokes and works around asbestos they will probably develop lung cancer. If I recall correctly the latency period is about 21 years. In a lung xray you can see the asbestos fibers and the smoke damage. Almost everyone of these people develop lung cancer. I think smoking is a carcinogenic and it has to occur in synergy with another toxin. Such as: paint fumes, car exhaust, wood dust, etc. So, when the tobacco companies said that they didn't find any conclusive evidence it was because they couldn't. However, that does not exclude them from being responsible for selling a defective product.

Even today, there are doctors that don't believe that smoking causes lung cancer, if it did, it would happen in every smoker. But it doesn't, therefore, they cannot conclude within 100% that smoking will cause lung cancer, etc.

Once the warning labels came on the pack that should exclude them from their liability. Because everyone can look at the pack and read the warning labels. Thats why they are only sold to people 18 years or older. If they are sold to people less than 18 then those stores need to be sued not the tobacco companies. People 18 or older should have the knowledge to know and understand the label therefore there should be no more excuses.

Before the warning labels is a different story. Just as there is today, people debated whether smoking was a health risk. During this time if someone started smoking and doctors can say that smoking was probably the cause then the tobacco companies should be liable for their defective product.

I started smoking when I was a teen, and I knew the health risks. Even my fiance's 8 year old son understands the health risks. He asks his mom to stop smoking, but she won't. I never got addicted to smoking, and it was easy for me to put them down and never pick them back up. However, some people have addictive bodies and they can't do this. Some people get addicted to Tylenol.

The one thing I have never understood, was why its ok to sue tobacco companies, but not alcohol and liquor companies. Both have warning labels, both didn't have warning labels at one time, and both have health risks. Alcohol is exposed to young people, and the alcohol companies portray the coolness in getting toasted, which is what they say about tobacco advertisements. However, they are not being sued. Someone tried in the 1960's but was told she couldn't. Talk about inconsistency.

I believe if tobacco companies an be sued, then our government (BATF) needs to be sued for allowing a defective product to stay on the market.

 
Chess9, my 12 year old cannot legally buy cigarettes, so my answer to your rather pointless insult is that no, I would NOT hold tobacco companies responsible - I'd hold myself responsible for not teaching my children, I'd hold the child responsible because MY children have been taught that cigarettes can kill and I'd like to think my opinion matters more to them than an image on TV or in print, and I'd hold the person responsible who gave/sold them to my children.
 
Unexpurg8ted:

The insult wasn't pointless. It had a naive pedagogical purpose. If you are going to post opinion with few supporting arguments and NO facts, why bother?

Young kids were specifically targeted by the tobacco industry for years. Although we've almost seen the end of such advertisements, we still have plenty of Marlboro ads at car races, ballparks, etc. Would you be offended if they were advertising crack cocaine? Why?

Kids get cigarettes by a variety of means, but mostly by simply walking into the store and buying them. Plenty of clerks just turn a blind eye. And, no, I didn't mean your 12 year old. I meant "our" 12 year old. The universal 12 year old for whom we expect our governments to make rational policies. You don't run over a 12 year old who walks in front of you at a traffic light when you have the green, do you? Why shouldn't you be interested in keeping dangerous products from all kids? What have YOU done about it? I didn't think you had done anything other than tell YOUR kid not to smoke.

What I really like are the guys lighting up in their offices and posting nonsense here about how personally responsible every one needs to be. Like they have control over their lives. If you can't be honest about this discussion, why bother? Cigarette smokers are addicted to nicotine. They DON'T have the choice. Most of them CAN'T stop. Intellectual honesty gets thrown out the window once the smokers and tobacco company supporters start whining about their rights and the victim mentality. If you are an adult and want to smoke cigarettes or crack cocaine, fine. But don't tell me you are a big believer in personal responsibility when your life is crashing down around your ankles.
 
5 million children who now smoke will die prematurely from health problems. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/teensmoke000216_feature.html

Smoking is a major health problem. Who will pay for these smokers in the future? You will. Your health insurance premiums will be higher. Your Medicare benefits will be lower. Your state and federal taxes will be higher.

Thanks to your tolerance of the perfidy of the cigarette companies, many people will die painful deaths and the living will have to pay for the Seven Dwarf's greed.
 
Chess9, again, how is the tobacco industry responsible for clerks selling cigarettes to minors? There are already fines in place for that. I've reported clerks I've seen selling to minors, btw. I just get tired of the attitude that everything in the world needs to be legislated because people apparently can't make their own decisions. You say that I'm not doing enough by keeping MY kids from smoking. I say that if EVERYONE paid more attention to their own children and dealt with these issues then I wouldn't have to. Your focusing on this issue because other parents aren't doing their job - maybe you should shift your focus to the REAL problem, which is people having children and then dumping them on daycare, or not teaching their children to be responsible. Are you also working to legislate alcohol out of business? Kids also walk into stores and purchase that even though it's illegal for them to do so, and booze definitely kills also. What are you doing about this, btw? Just curious. And that's a legit question - NOT antagonistic...I genuinely would like to know how you're involved in the solution. I admire people who put effort towards their convictions.

Maybe the solution is licensing for parenting. If you don't pass the exam no kids.


I'd personally be very happy if both alcohol and cigarettes weren't manufactured. I use neither. I CHOOSE not to. But I'm not going to be ridiculous enough to blame advertising if I did choose to, just like if I have heart disease from not having the good sense to avoid fast food I'm not going to run out and sue McDonald's.

Yes, people CHOOSE to be addicted to cigarettes. I seriously doubt someone tied 'em up and stuffed that first one between their lips. I will concede Fettbabe's point that people who smoked before the health warnings were required might have a legitimate complaint, but how that very first choking, hacking, burning inhale couldn't've given 'em a clue that "gee, this might be BAD for me" I don't know......sigh.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I DEFINITELY agree that the government should be a codefendant in these cases...both state and federal. States collect a huge revenue from the tax on the sale of cigarettes, as does the federal government.
 
While I believe that your peers have more of an influence on whether you choose to smoke or not, some of the points made in the Miami trial were that the tobacco companies specifically targeted youths with their ad campaigns. Evidence was shown that showed that some of the tobacco companies kept detailed records and staistics of kids that smoked, all the way down to the age of 10.

While it is questionable how much advertising will affect a kids ability to make a decision, it is not debatable that the tobacco companies need more smokers to replace the ones who die. So were they protecting their future by keeping those records?? The Miami jury evidently thought so.
 
Unexpurg8ed:

Well, we agree on one thing. Parents are doing a lousy job of parenting. I certainly agree that is a major cause of many social ills, including these troubled kids shooting up our schools.

But you haven't explained why you think corporations should be allowed to market dangerous products to minors.

The tobacco companies fought the age 18 smoking limit. (Prior to about 1975, few states even had such a limit. Kids in my high school smoked at 16 in the 1950s.) Thank your government, that you railed against, for that piece of legislation.

How do you propose to protect the public from every greedy entrepreneur who wants to sell a defective or harmful product? If you listen to the Libertarians, such legislation is not needed or should be greatly reduced (i.e. repealed) You can rail against the government all you want, but when your neighbor dumps PCBs in his backyard, 200 feet from your well, you will be screaming: "Why doesn't the governement do something about this?" I could give you a thousand examples of defective products which the federal and state governments have ordered off the market because they were defective or falsely advertised. Tobacco has not been one of them because the companies have done such a great job of coopting the Congress and buying their votes with money.

The general public is really just becoming aware of the insidious nature of smoking. The medical evidence has been piling up since the 1950s, but the public's focus has not been on this issue as much as it is now. Thank God for that small bit of good news.

Regarding drinking, we have made great strides forward in limiting the number of deaths attributable to drunk driving, but we can do more. You can thank MADD for that. A parent, just like you, did something. Many legislators finally listened and lowered the BAC necessary for a conviction for DUI and lengthened the jail sentences. I rarely drink, like you, so I have no vested interest in seeing alcohol even on the market. But your government did do something about drunk driving. They only got interested in the tobacco companies when they figured out a way to hit them up for billions of dollars. The hypocrisy of the state and federal governments on this issue is mind boggling. Where were they in 1965 when I was speaking publicly against tobacco? They were subsidizing tobacco farmers.

I also agree that you should listen to your body. When I got sick from smoking my first cigarettes, I never smoked again. But most kids in search of acceptance and the elusive "adulthood" will put up with almost any pain to achieve their goals. That's why we have so many addicted smokers. This is not a difficult issue to understand. Nicotine is addicting and it only takes 2 weeks to addict a teenager.

And, frankly, FettsBabe, who is pretty smart by the way, is wrong about the evidence. Plenty of evidence exists that smoking alone will cause lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, and plenty of other medical problems. Many people developed asbestosiosis and black lung disease who didn't smoke, and many smokers who weren't exposed to asbestos and coal contracted lung cancer. My sister-in-law, who was the nicest human being I ever met, died of lung cancer because she started smoking at 14 to be cool. She never worked in a coal mine or installed asbestos. She was a legal secretary and a mother.

On the issue of choice, you are dead wrong. Teenagers undergo enormous social pressures and will frequently make choices that are not in their best interests. (I have a very smart 12 year old daughter [Duke TIP] who I may strangle any day now because she is testing the limits of our patience to the max.) Most of us have very few choices. Isn't that the 20th Century lament? The nub of the existential crisis of man? Our lives are so meaningless because we don't have complete control? Well, we have very little control, but that doesn't mean our lives are meaningless and we have to give up. I believe in trying your best without deluding yourself that you and everyone else are able to make meaningful and correct choices at every turn. Personal responsibility is the flat tune of the morally tone deaf.

But, regardless of the issue of choice, which is really irrelevant anyway, companies should not be allowed to market unsafe or defective products without full disclosure of the risks and safeguards for minors. The tobacco companies tried to avoid these responsibilities to the American public and are now paying the price. Why do you think they pled mea culpa so strongly to the Miami jury? "We done wrong, we changed our ways, please don't spank us mister juryman." Pfft!

Quit making excuses for the criminals. Hang 'em high, hang 'em low, but hang 'em.
 
bozack -- <<I feel sorry either for you you or your parents who did not have the capacity to raise you in such a manner that you can differentiate between what you should be doing and shoudn't.

at age 12 or 13 people can reason to some degree...>>


Good for you, and good for me. Our parents were able to communicate with us. Do you think that is an excuse to let the tobacco vultures prey on the rest of our childern who are not so fortunate? Please re-read my post. I said, &quot;The vast majority of smokers start between twelve and fifteen years of age, hardly a time when they have a complete sense of right and wrong...&quot; Maybe that is why they call them children and adolescents. Maybe that is why kids of that age are protected in many ways, including the fact that, except under special circumstances, they are not prosecuted as adults for most criminal offenses.

Duh... Could it be that, in most other circumstances, society already recognizes that, overall, children are not fully prepared to make decisions about their responsibilities to themselves or others, let alone those that will impact their very life? Get real!

<< crossing the street witout looking both ways can be potentially hazerdous to your health. >>

Right! But crossing the street without looking is probably not chemically addictive, and it certainly doesn't earn billions of dollars for a bunch of greedy bloodsuckers whose mission in life is to get more kids hooked.

The only reason tobacco is still legal is because of the deceit, the lies, the greed, and the outright bribery of our legislators by the tobacco lobby. I believe that every person who has been an executive of a tobacco company for the last fifty years should be prosecuted for mass murder and conspiracy to commit mass murder. The fact that it has taken so long to turn the tables on them does not excuse them from being judged for their abuses of our society. It only makes their crimes that much worse. :|
 
Quote Chess9 &quot;But your government did do something about drunk driving.&quot;

Only after a whole lot of people( MADD being a major Contributer ) started pushing for it and thats the way it should be. I don't want the government arbitrarily deciding things for me.
 
chess9, to completely relieve the 12 year old of any responsibility is very dangerous.

Fine, he's not mature enough to understand the mechanisms of addiction, or to know that he's being manipulated by peer pressure, advertising, and society. Let's let him off the hook then. At the same time, though, we have to let the 12 year old who stole my neighbor's car as part of a gang initiation off the hook (yes, that happened, he was caught, now he's in jail). Forget about the 14 year old that robbed the convenience store up the road at gunpoint two years ago; he's not mature enough to know right from wrong, or to realize that the gang culture he grew up in is manipulating him. How about the two kids in Jonesboro who gunned down a teacher and several classmates?
 
Reitz:

You won't convince me that the recent trend of treating children as adults in the criminal system is a good thing. I'm afraid it's really an outgrowth of our fear of crime and not a meaningful solution to juvenile crime. If kids can't vote, buy liquor, drive, join the military, etc., why should we would be trying them as adults for their criminal conduct? It's really just more right wing garbage being fed to a gullible public.

By the way, I enjoyed your post in the depression thread. Quite impressive. 🙂
 
Chess - What I meant by the evidence, was that you can find articles that link lung cancer to smoking, but you can also find just as many that say it is not connected 100%.

My point was that no one can say with 100% certainity that ever smoker will develop lung cancer. Therefore, smoking does not always cause it. My uncle died of lung cancer and never smoked a day in his life. I also have relatives that died of other illnesses, and smoked their entire life (since teens and some before their teenage years).

I wish we could find a cure for cancer but to do that we have to identify all risks (which smoking is one risk), and then we must learn how to reverse the process or kill the cancer cells. I honestly think the money these people are seeking to recover in court would be better off spent in cancer research and studies on real people to help them with their medical costs.





 
Chess9, we keep it up and we'll have to make a thread just to disagree in! lol I lean towards the reitz point of view on trying kids as adults... I'm not sure at what age I'd put it though - probably 14. The knowledge that they're not going to be tried as adults and the juvenile &quot;point&quot; system in some states combines to give a lot of juveniles a sense of &quot;oh well, what can they really do to me anyway&quot;.


To keep this on topic, did you notice once I NEVER said it was okay for tobacco companies to target kids in their ads, or ANYbody for that matter. My point from the beginning was that the answer would be to make tobacco products illegal and stop production entirely, rather than just an endless string of lawsuits that only hurt consumers in the end.
 
FettsBabe: Ok, well, medical research doesn't have the certainty of a mathematical theorem, but the statistical correlation between lung cancer (and several other diseases) and smoking is very high.

Although your solution is a good practical one, our legal system doesn't work that way. Also, notice the states will be using the money they hope to get to provide a broad array of programs, many of which have nothing to do with smoking.

Speaking of the states, some are very worried that their settlement with the tobacco companies is in jeopardy because of the size of the judgement in the Miami case. The Colorado Comptroller apparently recommended that the state sell its interest in the tobacco litigation for substanially less than its value because of concerns they will never get a penny. Colorado doesn't raise tobacco, so they are entitled to the money in my view. Florida certainly is not entitled to any money in my view. The private litigants in Miami are justifiably entitled in my view. Generally, the States have been nothing but whores in this whole process.
 
Chess - You are right because there is a high correlation - its 85%. You are also right that the states have been whores to this whole thing. Can you believe that the gov. wants to file a lawsuit against big tobacco to recover their expenses? I can't because they allowed the product to exist, and still allow its production. They don't deserve crap, but to be sued themselves. They should be required to pay all medical bills for smoking related treatment out of their pockets, not by raising taxes. They can cut raises, expense on bolts, toilet seats, etc. Not that it would ever happen, but it should.

Chess - Do you feel that alcohol companies should be sued too? They also make a defective product.
 
Unexpurg8ed:

Tobacco products are legal, addictive and freely available to kids. Even if we made them illegal, which isn't a good idea, we'd still have millions of people with health problems, and millions of people with a nicotine addiction. So your &quot;solution&quot; is no solution.

The people who have been harmed are entitled to a remedy. That's the way our legal system works. I don't understand this reluctance to compensate people who have been seriously harmed. What is this? The voice of Cotton Mather again? Some fatalistic view of life? We all are victims and should accept it? Or, only the victims should accept it? The next time someone rear ends you and you have a broken back (which happened to me) I would like to be a fly on the wall while you talk with your lawyer about your remedies. The next time you pick up a case of food poisoning because some restaurant forgot to refrigerate the tuna salad over night, I'd like to hear your views. The next time your pharmacist gives you your medication and tells you on the label to take 3 pills every hour, when you are supposed to take 1 pill every 3 hours, please let me know what you intend to do. I'm sure you will just shrug your shoulders and say: &quot;That's life!&quot;

Sheezh!

I'm glad to hear that you think the cigarette companies shouldn't be allowed to sell defective products to kids. I'm disheartened to hear your implication that the kids shouldn't have the right to sue and recover damages from the criminals who manufactured the drugs.
 
If the plaintiffs do receive compensation from the cigarette makers - which is extremely unlikely - it will open up a new can of worms for anybody to sue any maker of a consumable product in which negative effects were derived. Look out McDonalds!
 
This is about not letting a bunch of crooks get away with lying to the American public.

Weren't you one of the people on this board defending President Clinton?
 
FettsBabe:

One of my brothers is an alcoholic. It is a dreadful disease. He's had two DUIs, maybe more. I've d*mn near killed him myself several times for mistreating our mother and his ex-wife when he is drunk. I've wrestled him to the ground on many an occasion when he got out of control. No easy task. He has my temper but when he gets drunk he acts out. He's the principal reason I don't drink.

Having said all of that, I really think making liquor illegal would be a waste of time.

And I doubt that many juries will be giving alcoholics money for damages. The prevailing view among the general population is that alcoholics can do something about their problem. I happen to think most alcoholics are addicted. The big difference is the people who sell alcohol don't deny that it is bad for you. However, they do a good job of making it sexy, manly, etc. In short, I don't think the breweries and distillaries are in any trouble because of the Miami judgement. The fear that everyone will be looking for a million bucks from some company because they abuse, say, potato chips, is absurd.
 
Chess9, so you're saying that the solution is an endless supply of lawsuits????? If tobacco isn't made illegal then what? According to you every smoker that has health problems resulting from smoking is entitled to compensation, so you think the &quot;defective product&quot; should be allowed to remain on the market for even more kids to consume? So there's another generation of lawsuits?

No, cigarettes are NOT freely available to kids. The legal age in most states for the sale of tobacco is 18. If a lawsuit is filed on behalf of a child, fine, but it should be against the person/people/business that sold the child a product that it's illegal to sell. Anyone who began smoking after the age of 18 and the posting of the warning clearly on the cigarettes should take responsibility for their own actions.

And there's a major flaw in your examples. I wouldn't have CHOSEN to be rear-ended, or knowingly eaten the unrefrigerated tuna salad, or deliberately take the wrong dosage. Cigarette smoking is a CHOICE.

 
I was reading through this thread and realized that 2/3 to the responses were complete right-wing hogwash (Chess9 made that abundently clear). The view of most of the responses can be categorized in two ways:
1.) The individual has complete and utter responsiblity (control) of what he does at all times in his life.

2.) If the public is allowed to sue the *good ol' boys* in the Tobacco Industry, why can't we target industries like fast food restaurant chains (for killing us with the fat and cholesterol laced into the food).

I understand that you are stating in point 2 that we (those who are for the judgement) are being hypocritical in our selctiveness of targeting who to sue.

Lets look at your hypocracy. OK, lets say that point number 1 is right. If people have total control of their decisions, why are other drugs be illegal. If we are to say smoking (a real killer) is fine, why is crack a *bad* substance. Using your argument, crackheads know what they are getting into. The drug lord are no worse than the 7 dwarfs - why is the public already targeting them.

Let our 12 year olds live their own lives and leave those nice drug lords alone!!!

The truth is cigarettes ARE killers, they should be placed in the same category as other narcotics. If this trial was against a drug lord, I am sure you would have a different reaction.
 
TrainWreck: I see you've coupled your caboose. Well, Clinton didn't give anyone cancer, although he's given the Republicans a bad case of the fits. I'm not a great Clinton fan just in case anyone really cares. I just don't think guys like Henry Hyde, who ruined three marriages from his philandering, and Bob Barr, the King of Serial Monogamy, should be throwing stones. I realize this is a fine point and will probably be lost in the spate of generalizations that seem to so frequently control debate around here. You know, sort of like my views on abortion? 😛
 
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