Jury orders cigarette makers to pay $145 billion in punitive damages!

[HannibalX]

It appears to that you are lying to yourself and to the rest of this board by implying that the cigarette problem will magically go away by bankrupting Phillip Morris and friends. Be a man and step away from these statements and don't let pride make you a fool.

Excuse me sir, but I am lying to no one. I am fully aware of the reactions to putting them out of business. I never said the problem would magicly go away if they were bankrupt. So perhaps you should re-read the entire thread before you call me a liar. Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt (Who was it that said that again?).

 

[Harvey]

I'm 100% with Trinitron on this, except that the damages aren't high enough. If you think I want to see the tobacco companies out of business, YES!!! I would!!!

I have posted, before, that a few Christmases ago, I personally sat with one of my best friends of over 25 years as he pulled his last breath due to smoking related illness. I have lost several other friends as well to the same curse. They were old enough to have started smoking while the tobacco killers were advertising the great taste and health benefits of smoking their brand over others.

Tobacco execs have been bribing our legislators while lying to the public about the deadly effects of their products for over fifty years, all for the sake of keeping their multi-million dollar salaries.

In California, we passed a very strong anti-smoking initiative. The tobacco lobby spent a record amount of money for a private group, trying to defeat it, and they lost by an 80% to 20% margin. What did they do? They bribed the Caliornia State Assembly (the lower legislative house) to pass a bill to repeal the law enacted by 80% of the voters. That is our representative government at work. :| :| Fortuately, so much stink was raised that the California Senate found the wisdom to kill the bill. Breaking that particular money machine won't bother me a bit.

AFIC, the tobacco execs are guilty of genocide.

Even the loss of a few hundred thousand labor jobs is cheaper than paying for the health costs of allowing these a$$holes to continue poisoning future generations. Small tobacco farmers still have their land. There are plenty of other crops they can grow for profit, so no sympathy there, either.

If you hate the tobacco companies as much as I do, and you are not a smoker, you can still do something to cut their income -- You can refuse to buy thier food products. Here's a list of some of them.

Athenos Cheeses
Baker's Chocolate and Coconut
Breakstone's Sour Cream, Cottage Cheese, etc.
Breyer's Ice Cream, Yogurt, etc.
Callard & Bowser toffees
Calumet Baking Powder
Campbell Soups
Capri Sun
Churny Cheeses
Claussen Pickles
Country Time (pseudo) Lemonade (They really should call this a kit, instead of a mix.)
Crystal Light
D-Zerta
Di Giorno Italian foods
General Foods (all products)
Good Seasons Salad Dressing Mixes
Hoffman's Cheeses
Jack's Pizza
Jello
Knudsen dairy products
Kool-Aid
Kraft Foods
Louis Rich lunch meats
Maxwell House Coffee
Miller Beer
Minute Rice
Mirácoli pasta
Nabisco products
Oscar Meyer
Oven Fry Coatings
Polly-O Cheeses
Post Cereals
Ragu Sauces, etc.
Sanka Coffee
Sealtest dairy products
Seven Seas Salad Dressings
Shake 'N Bake
Starbucks (Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks)
Stove Top Stuffings, etc.
Taco Bell dinner kits, Salsa, etc.
Tang
Toblerone and Tobler Candies
Tombstone Pizza
Yuban Coffee

These read like a who's who of highly processed immitation foods. There are plenty of other brands that are as good or better than any of these, usually for less money. There are more, but this is a start.

FsCK THE TOBACCO KILLERS!!!! :| :| :|

 

[Tripleshot]

Harvey

Nice post. But I don't want to stifle cambells or yuban or any other product.It has not been made clear to me that tobbaco companies saying 573mill would bankrupt them. That may be if we are talking about tobacco only. These other companies make billions in world wide sales.

The only measure is to shut sown the tobacco industry in total. There is no redeeming quality in keeping the tobacco industry going.Not even to pay fines.I would vote to forgive the fines if the doors of the tobacco industry where shut down forever and use of tobacco was outlawed in the U.S. in all forms.

(I quit smoking a year ago.I smoked for 20 years.I needed a doctors help to quit I was so addicted. I tried to convince myself smoking merits was safer,or smoking some other brand would be ok.It's all addictive behavior,trying to rationalize the feeble reasons I could still smoke. Total hogwash!! And the people that switch to chew are the real fools.Keep it up and the cancer of the mouth will reqire surgical removal of your lower jaw and sometimes worse. I live in fear my life is shorter now and I may not get to live long enough to see my grandchildren grow. SAD)

 

[MrPALCO]

<< AFIC, the tobacco execs are guilty of genocide. >>



What are the pot execs guilty of?

 

[reitz]

Harvey, while I respect the losses you've suffered, punishing the companies that Philip Morris and RJR/Nabisco have purchased is not the way to fix the problem. Your friends are still responsible for the damage they did to themselves after the danger was known.

What about the several hundred thousand people who work for these companies? They have nothing to do with the manufacture and sale of tobacco products. If we force RJR/Nabisco and Philip Morris (and others) out of business, what are those workers supposed to do? Do you really want to tell the workers at a Nabisco cracker factory that they're out of a job because too many Americans are unable to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions? Boycotting those products is not the answer; it is just absurd.

 

[Crimson]

Let me guess Harvey, you are pro-abortion as well? You would fight to the death for a woman's right to an abortion because they have the right to do what they want to their bodies.. but you think the government should step in and tell people they cannot smoke because its addicting and they cannot make an informed decision without YOUR help.

Here's a clue for your Harvey, people don't need YOU making decisions on whats best for them. Weren't you the person who also led the charge against buy.com for them not sending out monitors to people that they made a mistake in the pricing on? Clearly you feel that suing people is the answer to everything.. Who are you going to sue next? McDonalds for causing heart disease? Ford for causing car accidents? Where does the line stop for you Harvey? Clearly you are nothing but a feel good liberal who feels the need for government to control every aspect of people's lives.

You make the mention that having people stop smoking will SAVE healthcare money.. thats NOT neccessarily true.. people who die of lung cancer normally die A LOT quicker than people who die of other diseases naturally caused. People who die of cancer from smoking spend LESS money in the long run than people who live to age 95 by taking every medication under the sun, and spending every other day going to the doctor. Having people die SOONER saves money, so that argument is just stupid.

And here's the best part of it, I DON'T smoke, and I highly encourage everyone I know NOT to smoke.. its not good for you.. but there are a lot of things that aren't good for you. Actually, I propose a law that we start monitoring the cholesterol of every American, and when they go to buy a cheeseburger, if there cholesterol is higher than 200, then they can only buy a salad.. how does that sound Harvey? How is it ANY different than your smoking suggestions? Its not.

As for your friend who died, its time you stop placing the blame on tobacco companies and start placing the blame on your friend for not stopping. Tobacco isn't that addictive, and those who can't quit are simply just too weak minded to do it. If people wanted to stop they would.. And before you start saying I just don't understand, I held my grandfather's hand as he died from lung cancer, and at that moment of death he blamed nobody but himself.. and I didn't try to go suing the tobacco companies for taking him away from me.. he took HIMSELF away from his family by smoking 3 packs a day for life.

I also watched as my grandmother died from a cancer tumor in her stomach, who do I get to sue for that Harvey? Who can I blame for giving HER cancer? Please give me the name of a good attorney I would like to sue someone. Oh yeah, my father died when I was 10 years of heart disease.. who do _I_ get to sue for that? Where do _I_ get my 150 billion dollars for not having a father for the past 15 years of my life? Surely SOMEONE has to be to blame, certainly not ME, I didn't kill him..

This argument is just insane.. nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore.. its just BLAME BLAME BLAME.. Well I want to know who I can sue for everything that doesn't go right in my life, after all its not fair Harvey had/has a father longer than I did, certainly I _MUST_ have some money coming to me for that..

The product is NOT ILLEGAL.. if you want it banned, then work to get it banned.. And stop with the conspiracy theories of how tobacco companies pay everyone off.. lets get real here.. There is a reason tobacco companies have so much money.. people WANT their products.. they WANT to use them, and most of them aren't going to sue the companies when they die.. Its unfortunate that the majority of people don't agree with your position Harvey, but thats why we call ourselves a democracy and not a Harvacracy.. ie, YOU do not decide what is best for everyone.

 

[Harvey]

MrPALCO -- <<What are the pot execs guilty of?>>

And this has precisely what to do with the topic at hand?

reitz -- <<Your friends are still responsible for the damage they did to themselves after the danger was known.>>

You are a bit ignorant about the physiology and psychology of chemical dependency. Even most younger addicts were impressionably dumb kids when they fell for the tobacco ads, regardless of how much was known about the addictive and deadly nature of tobacco when they started.

<< What about the several hundred thousand people who work for these companies? >>

I already answered that. Their loss is small, compared to the money that would be saved in future health costs and all the lives that would be saved by killing the tobacco business. Some of that money should be spent to help those who become incidental casualties on the road to a better place.

Crimson -- <<Let me guess Harvey, you are pro-abortion as well? You would fight to the death for a woman's right to an abortion because they have the right to do what they want to their bodies.

Clearly you are nothing but a feel good liberal...>>

Yep! And proud of it!

Aside from that, the rest the moronic assertions in your posts are pure fanatsy and a fabrication of your feeble mind. Perhaps there is someone you could sue to get a refund on that defective reasoning you seem to have acquired.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

The fact still remains: they could have stopped, but they didn't.

Until it becomes PHYSICALLY impossible to quit smoking, there are no legitimate grounds to sue on.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Triniton and Harvey are being driven by emotion, not facts.


And BTW, my grandfather, who smoked most of his life, died of lung cancer 2 years ago July 6th.

And if you really boycott all those products, well, you need to get a life.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< MrPALCO -- <<What are the pot execs guilty of?>>

And this has precisely what to do with the topic at hand? >>



My answer in one Word.......veracity..

 

[MrsSkywalker]

If I get high cholesterol from eating eggs, can I sue the chicken farmer?

 

[bozack]

ok so I know what to do now

I will first sue McDonalds, BK, Pizza Hut, Papa Ginos, and a whole host of chinese food resturants for giving me a fat ass

and then I will sue all of the beer companys that added to my belly, I will be rich and never have to work again


Please Trinitron, people in the Wild West used to call cigaretts coffin nails don't even try to tell me that the people of later times thought they were ok, sure they may have called cigaretts sport, or said they improved your tennis game, but to think that people as a whole are that naive, well that is just plain silly

 

[MrsSkywalker]

One other thing. I don't buy that line of crap that people who smoke(d) had no idea when they started smoking that it was bad for you. Biggest line of crap I've ever heard. &quot;Yeah, inhaling smoke into our lungs is GOOD for us.&quot; Maybe the manufacturers of scissors should put a warning on them saying, &quot;Running with scissors could be hazardous to your health.&quot; Or how about warnings on bridges that read &quot;Jumping off this bridge could lead to brain damage, serious bodily harm, or even death.&quot; It is ridiculous. This society says they want to think for themselves, yet when they screw up, it's the other guy's fault for not telling them what to do! It's passing the buck to avoid the shame of stupidity.

I don't think we should go after the tobacco companies, just like I'm not about to sue McDonald's if I spill hot coffee on myself. The fact is, they knew it was bad for them, yet they bought the smokes, lit them and inhaled them. I can guarantee you that a gun was not held to their heads...no one is forced to smoke. And, yes, they may not have known exactly how bad cigs are for you, but it doesn't matter. Bad is bad. To what degree, in this case, is irrelevant.

 

[bozack]

wow after reading more of this thread I have so much more that I want to say now,

first off anything to excess will kill you as said before, whether it be alcohol, cigaretts, or peperoni pizza

in fact lets compare

the average smoker smokes a pack or more or cigaretts a day, now if you were to eat a whole large peperoni pizza every day or more, for the rest of your life you would either be a big fat bastard or die of high blood pressure or too much cholesterol-either way your dead

also our world is beccoming overcrowded by the minute, I am all for population control, if people like smoking, know the risks and have no issue with that(if they did they would stop) then why not-as the great band queen wrote for the movie series highlander &quot;who wants to live forever&quot;

as for second hand smoke, yeah it is an issue, if you cared for your kids you would not smoke at home, and they shouldnt be going to bars anyway, where I am from smoking has been banned in both resturants and bars, the first I can see the second is ridiculous-everyone that works in a bar or is a patron is over age 18-wtf? no minors there yet will will regulate smoking, where everyone if of legal age to consent. They use the defense that it is for the benefit of the employees? ok so they are over 18, they have brains, if it bothered them they would get another job at a regular resturaunt, and not a bar...that just pisses me off..

and as I said before people since their incarnation have &quot;known&quot; cigarettes and tobacco are not the best things for them no matter what they are told or which company &quot;lies&quot; to them, if they didn't then they are just foolhearty, if you start stabbing yourself you know that what your doing hurts you and eventually after stabbing yourself enough you will die, if you start smoking and you start coughing, and feeling like ass and when you stop you feel better, both you and your body know this is what is causing you harm and it will eventually kill you, no matter what others tell you.

I am not a die hard smoker, in fact I maybe smoke a pack a week if that and I am cutting back every week. the most I ever smoked was a pack a day for about a week, I realised that it was nasty and cut back, I didn't quit because I like casual smoking, it is something which I dont take to excess- I hate having my rights infringed upon, I hate people that cannot live up to their own actions, I hate this new lets sue everyone attitude

case and point

lady you bought the coffee, you know coffee is hot, yet your gonna sue McDonalds and win because your a dumbass and spill it on yourself? that is fair.-Yeah I also know that nicotine is addictive, but I am a firm believer in mind over body, if there was a true will their is a way, if people are truly commited to quitting then by golly they will quit and fast-


wow Ms. Skywalker, we type alike, I mustv'e been typing that just as you were yours--damn you stole my thunder

 

[DABANSHEE]

IMAO this is about personal responsability nothing else. Making tobacco won't stop people smoking, just as making pot, heroin &amp; cocain illegal during the 50s only created more problems - yes, other than the US where the drug war is one of the last remenents of prohibition, they just werent re-legalised when alcohol was re-legallised, most of the rest of the world only made those drugs illegal in the 50s because of American pressure - for example Australia in 1953

However if hypothetically speaking all cigarette factories did close down it would make a buggerall effect on unemployement statistics as money not spent on corporate tobacco would just be spent elseware. One, there will also be a huge increase in blackmarket tobacco, just as there is here. Yes because of high duty ciarette packs cost about A$8+ here (even though most cigarette packs in Australia contain 50 cigarettes, they are thinner on average), there's a huge market in direct from 'farm to tobacconist' black market tobacco. What happens is that lots of people have those Russian cigarette machines &amp; they just go &amp; buy this under the counter stuff by the kilo, &amp; roll there own.

 

[chess9]

What Harvey said, but he should have said it stronger!

The tobacco companies got into trouble when the focus of the debate shifted from the health aspects of smoking to the fraud perpetrated by the tobacco companies on the American public for 50 years. The foreman of the jury made this point in his interview.

Also, none of us sat through two years of testimony, so who among us can second guess the jury? The tobacco companies succeeded only in making themselves look like the jackasses they are. Philip Morris pays $25 million to its CEO and then complains they are being put out of business. Give me a break. The Seven Dwarfs lied to Congress and they lied to the American people. Why should we cut them any slack?

I think the smugness of the Seven Dwarfs is going to hurt them on appeal and with the American public. Although the class action certification is highly suspect, the damage award for the actual plaintiffs in this case is going to be astronomical, and the tobacco companies are going to have to pay, just as they had to pay the states. They have been losing for 18 months, and are going to be losing big time in another 18 months.

Those of you, like Reitz, who believe in the tobacco companies should load up on tobacco options or the stock. Just watch it soar!

Lung cancer killed two people in my family. It's an awful way to die. Shoot every one of those CEOs as far as I'm concerned. They are nothing but drug dealers.

 

[Hyper99]

I'm beginning to get quite lost of what everybody is saying
now look at the pros of smoking:
help you relax, make you look cool, some people even said it make them stronger.
cons: bad for your health, cancer to your lung in the long run
stinks to non smoker
very addictive substances, bad side effect too if you try to withdraw from it. Oh well too bad for those who have too much nicotine already
in them it almost impossible for them to withdrawl they need
more then life itself.
It like trying to sleep during the day when you use to sleep at night
and you gotta to be awake 24hrs to adjust to day time sleeping

 

[Hyper99]

then again most smoker do not know it bad for them as they
completely ignore the warning sign and say it just a joke
and goes on smoking indefinitely
They look at it as a way for tobbacco company to defend themselves
peer pressure also encorage other to smoke, and they just say what
the hell I'm goin got die sooner or later anyway, life is short
hahaha
maybe you have alot of friend that smoke and so you are forced
into it as well.
Oh well who say you gotta do what the majority do know i mean
you probably have to torture me to death to get me to smoke hehe
I ain't that easy to be pursuaved
like I said I'm too smart for them and
well dumb thing is just do what other say just because they say so
maybe it better to have no friend, if that what it take not to smoke
the price you paid for is more then worth it.
most of my friends smoke,
they stink and it difficult for me around
oh they know it bad for them but guess what?
they don't care!


here what smoker alway say:
smoking help you to relax
nah, it ain't bad for you
it actually will make you live longer!!!
LOL
are we funny or what?

 

[UberNeuman]

God, I could use a cigarette right about now...

 

[bozack]

ahh the forum wouldnt be quite the same without the ultra liberal outlook and collegeate views of none other than chess9, good to see your still here. Just see the insider or something? good movie, and it had a positive effect in my opinion, but people still knowingly chose to smoke, do you really believe everything that they tell you ( whether it be big business or govt?) oh well

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Gyah, such hypocrisy here. You believe women have the right to choose what they do with their bodies and kill their unborn babies, and yet you want to shoot the CEOs of the tobacco industry? They aren't forcing anyone to smoke.

Your relatives made a choice to harm their bodies and smoke, as did my grandfather. It's their own damn fault that they died as a result. It's really as simple as that. Stop pointing fingers.

 

[chess9]

Engine: Your caboose is loose Mr. Trainwreck, as usual. I'm opposed to abortion. And, no, I wouldn't kill anyone, but I wouldn't keep anyone from doing it. At least they aren't innocent fetuses. They have the blood of millions of people on their hands.

 

[chess9]

Bozo: I don't watch movies. But I have read everything I could get my hands on about this problem. I've been opposed to smoking since 1956, after my buddy Jerry Steinberg and I smoked two cartons of Lucky Strikes in about 4 hours. I was sick for a week. But, yeah, I think they're evil. Much of corporate America has lost its soul, but they are the devil's devil.

 

[Imaginer]

<< I say make them pay for their own stupidity. The facts are well known, yet they still insist on smoking. Deny them medicare, make them pay for their own self inflicted health problems. >>


Not all smokers are bad people. They just can't stop their habits on their own. And some smokers are relatively good people with an extremely bad problem.

But people knowing the information should not start in the first place from this time on. People that are smoking should quit! But sadly, some might not have the willpower or inner strength to do so. And a box of those nicorette stuff is more than a pack of cigarettes.

Blame the in crowd factor, blame the nicotine, blame many factors. You can pass blame all you want but that would not solve any problem. And fat chance the cigarette companies would even pay up. Some are influencing government officials I think...

 

[chess9]

Bozo: And another thing, while I have my thing out...

I pick up a lot of interesting information from these Forums. I do enjoy them. But I don't hold any illusions about the number of 21st Century Jack Kerouacs who post here. The Emersons, Aristotles, etc., are woefully missing. About the only person who even remotely qualifies is Wombat Woman. Most of us are merely waterboys for the Gospel according to today's guru. Am I brainwashed? Sure. Are you brainwashed? Uh, well, I'd better not give a complete answer....

And this leads us to the inevitable question: &quot;How much control do we really have over our lives?&quot; Teenagers are keenly aware of this problem and fight it (often by falling victim to the corporate interests they oppose) instinctively because they haven't sold out...yet. Most of us have been coopted, have given up the fight. That includes people who you think &quot;choose&quot; to smoke. Do you know how many people, including many teenage would be &quot;Kerouacs&quot; started smoking for reasons that have nothing to do with choice? ALL OF THEM. EVERY BlOODY LAST ONE OF THEM has been coopted by some ideology, by friendship, by corporate slogans and images...you name it.

You right wingers think everyone else should have so much control and personal responsibility, but you have none yourselves. Face the music. There are millions of ways your life could be affected in the next ten minutes. This post could cause you to get so p*ssed you spill your Heiny. (I certainly hope not, but you get the idea.) I realize you are just a college kid who loves the Republican Party, but that's your choice that you bought into, right? You have complete control over what you believe and do, right? Ok., sure. (So why, I ask rhetorically, do I get my nose out of joint if I think you can't control yourself? Good question.)

The sword of personal responsibility is duller than the dimwits that raise it. No one chooses to smoke, and that's one of the reasons most of them can't quit.