Judge: School must remove prayer banner

[CanOWorms]

Apparently not. You said the hint was "heavenly father", so I looked that up. The article mentions Judaism, Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Islam, Other religions, Hinduism and Confucianism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father

That's irrelevant. In the United States, both "heavenly father" and "amen" are Christian themes.

 

[davmat787]

That's irrelevant. In the United States, both "heavenly father" and "amen" are Christian themes.

Oh really? Are you suggesting all of those religions listed that use the term heavenly father are not represented in the US? I honestly had to look it up, and that term is a theme among countless religions.

I am not saying this fact is germane to the issue of the poster being taken down exactly. Rather, someone said the poster promoted a specific religion. When asked for the specific religion, I was told the hint is 'heavenly father' instead. So I look it up, countless religions and types use it, and here we are.

Maybe you have only heard it used by Christians in the US, and have never affiliated with Muslims, Mormons, Orthodox, etc?

 

[sandorski]

Apparently not. You said the hint was "heavenly father", so I looked that up. The article mentions Judaism, Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Islam, Other religions, Hinduism and Confucianism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father

Fair enough, but do you seriously think those other Religions were considered when this was put up?

 

[davmat787]

Fair enough, but do you seriously think those other Religions were considered when this was put up?

If I had to guess, certainly not, based on it being 50 years old. But that does not change the fact that the poster does not promote a specific religion. And again, whether this means anything in the grand context of whether or not it should be taken down, I don't know. My whole point was whether or not a specific religion is being promoted, and I think it is fair to say that no it is not. We can all assume what some grade school girl was praying to or thinking of 50 years ago, but that is an assumption. I don't expect this to change anyones mind either.

Fair enough?

 

[CanOWorms]

Oh really? Are you suggesting all of those religions listed that use the term heavenly father are not represented in the US? I honestly had to look it up, and that term is a theme among countless religions.

I am not saying this fact is germane to the issue of the poster being taken down exactly. Rather, someone said the poster promoted a specific religion. When asked for the specific religion, I was told the hint is 'heavenly father' instead. So I look it up, countless religions and types use it, and here we are.

Maybe you have only heard it used by Christians in the US, and have never affiliated with Muslims, Mormons, Orthodox, etc?

I don't understand how you could reach the conclusion that I'm stating that other groups are not represented in the United States. I'm simply stating that in the US, the use of terms such as "heavenly father" and "amen," particularly 50 years ago, suggest Christian themes. Much of this is influence from popular culture and such.

 

[shira]

Oh really? Are you suggesting all of those religions listed that use the term heavenly father are not represented in the US? I honestly had to look it up, and that term is a theme among countless religions.

I am not saying this fact is germane to the issue of the poster being taken down exactly. Rather, someone said the poster promoted a specific religion. When asked for the specific religion, I was told the hint is 'heavenly father' instead. So I look it up, countless religions and types use it, and here we are.

Maybe you have only heard it used by Christians in the US, and have never affiliated with Muslims, Mormons, Orthodox, etc?

You're correct, but you're still wrong. Public institutions may not promote monotheism (or theism generally) as opposed to polytheism or deism or animism or atheism or Satanism or Wicca or any other "religious" belief. The very fact that this school's poster promotes the concept of one God is a violation.

 

[davmat787]

I don't understand how you could reach the conclusion that I'm stating that other groups are not represented in the United States. I'm simply stating that in the US, the use of terms such as "heavenly father" and "amen," particularly 50 years ago, suggest Christian themes. Much of this is influence from popular culture and such.

No, you said they ARE christian themes, implying exclusivity, see below. Perhaps I am nitpicking, or misinterpreted your point. All I am saying is that apparently the term "heavenly father" is much more than simply an American Christian theme. I took your original comment, pasted below, as implying the term/theme are exclusive to Christianity. I am not religious, this is news to me to really, I had to look into today when the issue as to whether the poster mentioned a specific religion or not.

So to clarify, do you think the term "heavenly father" is exclusive to Christianity?

That's irrelevant. In the United States, both "heavenly father" and "amen" are Christian themes.

 

[davmat787]

You're correct, but you're still wrong. Public institutions may not promote monotheism (or theism generally) as opposed to polytheism or deism or animism or atheism or Satanism or Wicca or any other "religious" belief. The very fact that this school's poster promotes the concept of one God is a violation.

What am I wrong on? I can understand you assuming that I support the poster staying up based on what I was debating, but I have not said that. I was taking issue with someone saying the poster promoted a specific religion, and I don't think so. As I have said, whether or not that is germane to the legality is another issue.

If you read the words of this poster, does it promote a specific religion? Many think so, I am undecided since no specific religion is mentioned. It is the musings of some student 50 years ago, but I can understand your POV, mine is all over the place apparently, lol.

 

[CanOWorms]

No, you said they ARE christian themes, implying exclusivity, see below. Perhaps I am nitpicking, or misinterpreted your point. All I am saying is that apparently the term "heavenly father" is much more than simply an American Christian theme. I took your original comment, pasted below, as implying the term/theme are exclusive to Christianity. I am not religious, this is news to me to really, I had to look into today when the issue as to whether the poster mentioned a specific religion or not.

So to clarify, do you think the term "heavenly father" is exclusive to Christianity?

Interesting that you can view that as implying exclusivity. I wonder how you function in normal society.

Nevertheless, the intent and purpose of the banner is obviously in reference to the Christian God. An uncontacted tribe in the Amazon may use the same phrase, but it has no bearing on the banner.

 

[davmat787]

Interesting that you can view that as implying exclusivity. I wonder how you function in normal society.

Nevertheless, the intent and purpose of the banner is obviously in reference to the Christian God. An uncontacted tribe in the Amazon may use the same phrase, but it has no bearing on the banner.

lol, you wonder how I can function in normal society while you are threatened by what some grade school kid wrote 50 years ago? Why even go there? Can't handle a little debate and must resort to petty insults?

You say it is obvious, yet no person specific to any one religion is mentioned. We can assume, and are probably right, but does that change the fact?

Just to be clear, if this was the words of a pastor or other church official, I would definately see this differently. I am looking at this as more of what the child wrote on the poster 50 years ago, and not that the school is forcing a religion upon its students.

 

[michal1980]

You're correct, but you're still wrong. Public institutions may not promote monotheism (or theism generally) as opposed to polytheism or deism or animism or atheism or Satanism or Wicca or any other "religious" belief. The very fact that this school's poster promotes the concept of one God is a violation.

anti-religion libersan like you and the aclu promote atheism by banning relgion from school. Imposing your anti-religion belifes.


Finally. seperation of church and state is not in the consituation its a lie that christain / religion haters invented and repeated over and over to make it 'true'.

Schools have books with hitler and nazis in them, does that mean they are promoted / establishing nazism?

 

[silverpig]

anti-religion libersan like you and the aclu promote atheism by banning relgion from school. Imposing your anti-religion belifes.


Finally. seperation of church and state is not in the consituation its a lie that christain / religion haters invented and repeated over and over to make it 'true'.

Schools have books with hitler and nazis in them, does that mean they are promoted / establishing nazism?

1. Godwin's law.
2. Promoting atheism would have them put up a sign that said "God doesn't exist".

 

[kage69]

This. It simply has no purpose being in a school, no matter how long it's actually been there.

Agreed.

 

[Rainsford]

anti-religion libersan like you and the aclu promote atheism by banning relgion from school. Imposing your anti-religion belifes.


Finally. seperation of church and state is not in the consituation its a lie that christain / religion haters invented and repeated over and over to make it 'true'.

Schools have books with hitler and nazis in them, does that mean they are promoted / establishing nazism?

It's pretty clearly in the first amendment, as has been upheld in court over and over and over again. It's true that the phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't appear, but the establishment clause explicitly prohibits the government promoting religion. Religion can definition be mentioned in school without "promoting" it, as with your silly Nazi analogy. But a religious mural as a prominent symbol in the school sounds like "promotion" to me.

 

[Rainsford]

...

Now, this student, Jessica Ahlquist is an idiot. Here's a little piece of news for you. There's going to be things in life that irritate you, that annoy you, and that boil your blood. Guess what? Tough. You're in high school, not the real world. Stop acting like a whiny snot and get back to your studies. Hopefully, you'll learn how not to be an ass before you graduate.

School is where you learn how to become a valuable member of society, not just where you learn math and history, and a big part of being a useful adult is learning to stand up for what you believe in when necessary and to question things and to NOT just sit down and shut up. And it's not something you just magically figure out as an adult either, you have to learn it, just like everything else.

And your life lesson speech is a little hard to take seriously since you disagree with her view anyways. I doubt you'd say anything different if she wasn't in high school.

 

[Genx87]

Freedom of religion means freedom from having the government endorse a religion or force a religion upon you. A public school is a government building.

In contrast, if she walked into someone's private home or a private business and started complaining about the Ten Commandments on the wall, then she would be in the wrong.

There is no endorsement or establishment of religion by having a banner up for 50 years. People should understand the circumstances in which the first amendment was written. The founding fathers were subject to the british empire and thus the church of england. They didnt want an established state religion. Not that religion should be devoid from the public square.

 

[sandorski]

If I had to guess, certainly not, based on it being 50 years old. But that does not change the fact that the poster does not promote a specific religion. And again, whether this means anything in the grand context of whether or not it should be taken down, I don't know. My whole point was whether or not a specific religion is being promoted, and I think it is fair to say that no it is not. We can all assume what some grade school girl was praying to or thinking of 50 years ago, but that is an assumption. I don't expect this to change anyones mind either.

Fair enough?

No, now you're just acting dumb.

 

[michal1980]

It's pretty clearly in the first amendment, as has been upheld in court over and over and over again. It's true that the phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't appear, but the establishment clause explicitly prohibits the government promoting religion. Religion can definition be mentioned in school without "promoting" it, as with your silly Nazi analogy. But a religious mural as a prominent symbol in the school sounds like "promotion" to me.

Only relgion haters see a banner like that as an endorsement or promotion of religion.

By that standard anything put up in a school equates to school endorsment/promotion.

School has a coke machine. must be endorsing coke.

 

[Joepublic2]

I'd say this was the correct decision, as it seems like it was an endorsement over one set of religious beliefs over another (or lack thereof in this example).

That being said, I think religious/prayer clubs should be allowed in public schools and I don't have a problem with say prayers before a sporting event as long as these things are entirely student lead/endorsed/paid for. Freedom of speech means that somebody, somewhere is always going to be offended about something, and there is no right not to be offended.

School has a coke machine. must be endorsing coke.

It is, in a way. Or at the very least giving them a captive audience to advertise to.

 

[Paratus]

anti-religion libersan like you and the aclu promote atheism by banning relgion from school. Imposing your anti-religion belifes.


Finally. Seperation of church and state is not in the consituation its a lie that christain / religion haters invented and repeated over and over to make it 'true'.

Schools have books with hitler and nazis in them, does that mean they are promoted / establishing nazism?

save me big government!

 

[theeedude]

This.

They aren't spending the schools money on bible camp she should stfu

So in addition to establishing religion, we should suppress free speech. Yeah, lets just toss the whole first amendment.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

anti-religion libersan like you and the aclu promote atheism by banning relgion from school. Imposing your anti-religion belifes.


Finally. seperation of church and state is not in the consituation its a lie that christain / religion haters invented and repeated over and over to make it 'true'.

Schools have books with hitler and nazis in them, does that mean they are promoted / establishing nazism?

Are you really this retarded? Is this a forum promoting Atheism in most threads because it's not mentioned in most threads? It's not banning religion to not accept the promoting of religion, everyone is indeed free to pray in school but it should not be promoted by the school, even a drugged up toddler should be able to get that but somehow you don't?

Perhaps the homeschooling failed you miserably?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So in addition to establishing religion, we should suppress free speech. Yeah, lets just toss the whole first amendment.

You're arguing with ********.. think about it..

 

[CanOWorms]

lol, you wonder how I can function in normal society while you are threatened by what some grade school kid wrote 50 years ago? Why even go there? Can't handle a little debate and must resort to petty insults?

I'm not threatened since I don't go to the school. Also, the discussion and threatening actions (as likely perceived by the student who sued) is not from a kid who wrote it 50 years ago, but the current administrators who have decided to have the unconstitutional banner up.

You say it is obvious, yet no person specific to any one religion is mentioned. We can assume, and are probably right, but does that change the fact?

Just to be clear, if this was the words of a pastor or other church official, I would definately see this differently. I am looking at this as more of what the child wrote on the poster 50 years ago, and not that the school is forcing a religion upon its students.

I don't think that you need to refer to a historical or mythical religious figure in order for it to be deemed religious.

 

[CanOWorms]

Only relgion haters see a banner like that as an endorsement or promotion of religion.

By that standard anything put up in a school equates to school endorsment/promotion.

School has a coke machine. must be endorsing coke.

No, a coke machine has a utilitarian purpose. The banner has none.

The banner should be taken down and burned, and the ashes used in an abortion. Religious anti-constitutionalists must be taught a lesson. They must integrate and assimilate into American society.