Judge: School must remove prayer banner

[ch33zw1z]

She should withdraw her request, if the school agrees to put a custom FSP banner up next to it. How the heck has the current banner made it to 2012?

 

[xBiffx]

404 imposition of "atheist beliefs" not found. The absence of religious signage at public schools doesn't promote atheism. It promotes nothing at all. Religion or the lack thereof is a private matter.

Small government conservatives who think the government involves itself in too many things should cheer. We don't need to add religion to the list of things that government is involved in.

On face value I agree the absence of a sign promotes nothing at all. But here we are talking about the removal of a "religious" sign. The removal of which has been forced by a decision of a case brought by an atheist. So removing it now would seem to support atheism, which is also legally a religion.

 

[michal1980]

404 imposition of "atheist beliefs" not found. The absence of religious signage at public schools doesn't promote atheism. It promotes nothing at all. Religion or the lack thereof is a private matter.

Small government conservatives who think the government involves itself in too many things should cheer. We don't need to add religion to the list of things that government is involved in.

banning christian signs, to support atheists belifes is what you big goverment is doing.

having a banner does not equal establishment, unless your brain is broken.

 

[michal1980]

On face value I agree the absence of a sign promotes nothing at all. But here we are talking about the removal of a "religious" sign. The removal of which has been forced by a decision of a case brought by an atheist. So removing it now would seem to support atheism, which is also legally a religion.

IMHO banning signs is equvilant to prohibiting the exercise of religon.

Now the liberals will say you can still pratice/pray 'in private'.

Using that logic, you can have free speech - in private.

 

[Dulanic]

I saw on the news she is now being bullied and likely won't even be going to that school now. Was it worth it? Not like she had to read it.

I'm not religious myself either.

 

[Bateluer]

Heavenly father is establishment of religion.

Its a hand written mural by an alum of the school, there's no establishment or endorsement of religion associated with it. As I said, its part of the school's history, heritage. Most, likely all schools maintain memorabilia from their past student and teacher bodies.

 

[zinfamous]

ruh roh, here's comes yet another "blame the libruls!" laptog.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Endorsement is not the same as coercion. Endorsement is the current SCOTUS standard here. Coercion used to be. See Sandra Day O'Conner's concurring opinion in Lynch v. Donnelly.

Did you read the full text of the mural?

Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen

It could be construed as an endorsement of religion but I don't most people would interpret it that way.

 

[ch33zw1z]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...in-ri-school/2012/01/13/gIQA6rOjwP_story.html

U.S. District Judge Ronald Lagueux disagreed and ruled that the banner should be removed immediately. He also upbraided school officials for holding community meetings about the mural that “at times resembled a religious revival.” At one meeting, several school officials read from the Bible or declared their faith.

hmmm, interesting. the plot thickens.

 

[MovingTarget]

Conservatives defending the school poster. Answer my question:

"How would you feel if someone had a poster of Quran sayings up on that same wall?"

Although I no longer identify myself as a conservative, I would have no problem with it. The offending text of the mural, even if it similarly had referenced Allah instead of 'Heavenly Father', would be okay. It is really more poetry than prayer, imho.

 

[TheSlamma]

Small government conservatives who think the government involves itself in too many things should cheer. We don't need to add religion to the list of things that government is involved in.

This is a good point

Problem is there really is no such thing as a small gov conservative, they just want to shrink the parts they don't like is all and supplement the rest with military contracts.

 

[davmat787]

So the real question for Conservatives is how would you feel if someone had a poster of Quran sayings up on that same wall? Probably wouldn't be singing the same tune...

I can't answer that question, but would the reaction from the left also be different if the poster had a verse from the Quran? Also note that the poster does not actually have a verse from the bible if I understand correctly, rather it basically contains the thoughts in prayer form of a little girl from 50 years ago.

I am not religious, but don't many religions use the terms 'heavenly father' and 'amen'? In other words, this poster is not specific to a single religion?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

take the gov't out of the school system would solve this issue.

Also, making it known that "separation OF church and state" is not law nor does it mean there can be zero interaction between church and state.

Just sayin'

 

[davmat787]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...in-ri-school/2012/01/13/gIQA6rOjwP_story.html

U.S. District Judge Ronald Lagueux disagreed and ruled that the banner should be removed immediately. He also upbraided school officials for holding community meetings about the mural that “at times resembled a religious revival.” At one meeting, several school officials read from the Bible or declared their faith.

hmmm, interesting. the plot thickens.

Yea, if that happened then that is definitely over the line. I don't think many would argue otherwise, but you never know.

 

[Turtle Man]

As I'm local to this issue in Rhode Island. I thought I'd mention the R.I. State House had a Menorah and also instead of a Christmas Tree, it was a Holiday Tree. Because Christmas was religion oriented or w/e WTF is good people?

 

[RampantAndroid]

Try again. Freedom of Religion not being violated here. She is still free to believe what she wants.

It's in a public (state run) school. On principal I think it has no business being there. If kids want to pray on their own, fine. But the school should not be putting up items telling you to pray.

However, Biff is right - the constitution has nothing on this case.

 

[Bateluer]

It's in a public (state run) school. On principal I think it has no business being there. If kids want to pray on their own, fine. But the school should not be putting up items telling you to pray.

And they aren't.

 

[videogames101]

Honestly aren't there bigger issues to be dealt with, aka the "pledge"?

 

[RampantAndroid]

And they aren't.

Yeah. It's worse. It's a prayer itself. As if the officials of the school are saying the prayer.

 

[PottedMeat]

heh good for her, challenge high school banner in court, win -> sweet college application material

 

[Turtle Man]

On some real shit, how are pledges and prayers "serious" issues... who gives a shit what others do... As long as they aren't being forced to do something, then worry about other stuff. Like the kids grades, or rapist teachers, or maybe teach some respect.

 

[woolfe9999]

Did you read the full text of the mural?



It could be construed as an endorsement of religion but I don't most people would interpret it that way.

Endorsement just means approval, i.e. giving a "thumbs up" to something. I think saying "dear heavenly father" is probably endorsement of religion. The idea behind endorsement as the standard is that it is difficult to distinguish it from coercion when you'll talking about children, because when any authority figure endorses something it's essentially the same thing.

In any event, it's for the courts to decide if it's endorsement. I favor drawing a line that excludes most of what some people would consider "borderline" cases. The "establishment" of a state religion means far more than just establishing a state religion in the official sense. If that wasn't so, we could establish a state religion without calling it a state religion. The state's role is not to endorse religion. I don't know why that is controversial unless that is what someone wants to the state's role to be. You can say, where is the harm of the banner, but where is the harm of not having it? When you have a constitutional principle, you should err on the side of upholding it.

- wolf

 

[RampantAndroid]

On some real shit, how are pledges and prayers "serious" issues... who gives a shit what others do... As long as they aren't being forced to do something, then worry about other stuff. Like the kids grades, or rapist teachers, or maybe teach some respect.

Given I'm vehemently against religion - CERTAINLY having it around kids - well, you can probably begin to understand my stance. Having gone to catholic school from 4th grade -> high school while not being catholic, it's pretty sickening to me that kids start at 2nd grade with first communion. Religion has no place with people who cannot properly think their beliefs through, IMO.

 

[sandorski]

Freedom of Religion is also Freedom from Religion. No matter what Religion you are, you benefit by being Free from other Religions.

 

[halik]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...in-ri-school/2012/01/13/gIQA6rOjwP_story.html

U.S. District Judge Ronald Lagueux disagreed and ruled that the banner should be removed immediately. He also upbraided school officials for holding community meetings about the mural that “at times resembled a religious revival.” At one meeting, several school officials read from the Bible or declared their faith.

hmmm, interesting. the plot thickens.

Err that changes the facts quite a bit; I think courts have had some leeway about historical things that seem to promote religion (in god we trust etc). If the school uses this as some sort of "war of jesus" shrine, I don't think you can use the historical artifact argument.