Judge overhauls troubled Ferguson, Missouri, court

[ivwshane]

Perhaps it helps to put it into perspective:
For most of us, if we got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign, it would inconvenience us, but we could afford to pay the fine, and realize, while rolling our eyes, yeah, it's against the law to only slow to 1mph, instead of coming to an absolute stop, even when there isn't another vehicle in motion within 1/2 a mile.

Now, imagine the fine wasn't a few hundred dollars, but rather, 1/2 a month's pay. And, they won't allow you to make arrangements to pay it - pay it then, or go to jail; and you knew you didn't have enough money to pay the fine. Go to court, and go to jail? Or not show up and take your chances that you might be able to scrape up enough money before you're caught again. And, if you are caught again, having not shown up for court the first time, the fine is now 2 month's pay.

Not only that but if you are unable to pay the full amount of the fine you get a late payment fee. You could even pay your original fee but still owe more in fees.

It's a rediculous system if you ask me.

 

[K1052]

What does being poor have to do with committing a crime?

Many people are poor with no criminal history.

Are you serious?

 

[Ackmed]

Well, no. In other words, minor traffic offenses should never, ever, ever, ever lead to multiple arrests, compounding fines, loss of license and loss of job. You want the punishment to fit the crime, and ruining someone's life because they were going 5 mph above the speed limit is an extremely poor way to govern. I know someone who got hit with multiple traffic citations and it kept his license perpetually suspended for years because he kept getting caught driving with a suspended license because that was literally the only way he could get to work (never mind the number of jobs that require a valid driver's license even for non-driving positions). It's a ridiculous cycle of bullshit that continually punishes people for the most minor of offenses and it doesn't inspire confidence that the system is trying to help them. It's a modern day debtor's prison, and even Victorian England was able to realize how stupid that policy was.

You want a solution? Allow people to keep their license active and garnish a small percentage of their wages for a certain length of time (this can vary depending on the nature of the violation). It's still punitive, but it allows them to remain a productive member of society during their punishment. You could even implement an increasing scale for further offenses, so that the people who really can't seem to learn their lesson get punished more harshly until the message becomes clear. But you don't fuck over the entirety of the poor population in the process.

Because every violation was for going 5mph over? Proof of that? There are such things as a hardship license which allows them to drive to and from work, school, getting the kids, grocery, etc. The important things in life. You act like everyone has an actual income that can be garnished. That's laughable.

I think it's complete BS to issue warrants for people's arrest over minor traffic violations.

I would be OK if it's like no insurance, suspended drivers license, aggressive driving, your 5th violation for the same thing...but seatbelt tickets? Come on....that is a money grab.

They don't issue warrants for not wearing a seat belt. They issue warrants for not showing up to court. All you gotta do is show up, but apparently most can't be bothered to do that. So a simple citation and paying a fine turns into jail time. Because they don't care. And now that attitude is being rewarded. So lets not claim that warrants were issued simply for not wearing a seat belt. At least try to stick to facts.

Bottom line is, don't commit infractions and you don't have to worry about it. It is so simple.

 

[fskimospy]

Because every violation was for going 5mph over? Proof of that? There are such things as a hardship license which allows them to drive to and from work, school, getting the kids, grocery, etc. The important things in life. You act like everyone has an actual income that can be garnished. That's laughable.

They don't issue warrants for not wearing a seat belt. They issue warrants for not showing up to court. All you gotta do is show up, but apparently most can't be bothered to do that. So a simple citation and paying a fine turns into jail time. Because they don't care. And now that attitude is being rewarded. So lets not claim that warrants were issued simply for not wearing a seat belt. At least try to stick to facts.

Bottom line is, don't commit infractions and you don't have to worry about it. It is so simple.

I would strongly suggest you read the DOJ's report on Ferguson's municipal court practices and then see what you think. They are unconscionable: (start on page 42!)

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/do...rt-on-the-ferguson-mo-police-department/1435/

 

[K1052]

They don't issue warrants for not wearing a seat belt. They issue warrants for not showing up to court. All you gotta do is show up, but apparently most can't be bothered to do that. So a simple citation and paying a fine turns into jail time. Because they don't care. And now that attitude is being rewarded. So lets not claim that warrants were issued simply for not wearing a seat belt. At least try to stick to facts.

Bottom line is, don't commit infractions and you don't have to worry about it. It is so simple.

Why would they appear in court to pay fines they cannot pay and miss work that they can't afford to miss (either from lost income or a fear of being fired)? Oh right…they don't.

No, the bottom line is that if you have resources the outcome is different for you. As set up now the justice system fucks the poor pretty badly at every turn for no particular reason other than the pointless moralizing how they should't have violated the law in the first place. The total lack of empathy some people display in the face of all evidence to disproportionate outcomes is pretty remarkable.

You can just say you don't really care what happens to poor people. That at least would be honest.

 

[piasabird]

So I am listening to the radio from 97.1fm newstalk this morning listening to Jamie Almond and this caller calls in. He complains saying he got a ticket in Ferguson and he paid it five years ago. He says they should pay him his money back if all the other people are going to go free. I kind of agree with him.

I think what they really did is undid all the warrants without throwing out all the tickets and fines. They will probably negotiate lower fines and community service and maybe set aside some of them. However, I think everyone should still have to pay their fines. The problem is still that too many municipalities depend on ticket revenue to pay their city bills. I think this should be illegal. All tickets should either go to the STATE or to the police to buy new equipment or to help pay for roads and safety equipment. Why should the city get to keep all the fines to pay for their relatives that they hired?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

They don't issue warrants for not wearing a seat belt. They issue warrants for not showing up to court. All you gotta do is show up, but apparently most can't be bothered to do that. So a simple citation and paying a fine turns into jail time. Because they don't care. And now that attitude is being rewarded. So lets not claim that warrants were issued simply for not wearing a seat belt. At least try to stick to facts.

Bottom line is, don't commit infractions and you don't have to worry about it. It is so simple.

Did you know that it's perfectly legal to fire someone for failure to miss work because they were in court as a defendant? So you get a court date, you tell your boss "I can't work this day," he says "if you don't come in, you're fired"... What exactly do you do? Do you honor the court and give up your only means of actually paying the fine they are bound to levy against you? Do you pass on showing up because you know the outcome and thereby put yourself in contempt? And is either choice a valid option for something as minor as a traffic violation? We're literally telling people "you committed a violation, you're either going to lose your job or your license, possibly both, along with multiple fines you can't afford and a stay in jail, solely because you don't have enough money to pay." Isn't that a touch excessive?

 

[Darwin333]

Oh, so they got didn't pay a fine and failed to show up for court. An arrest warrant was issued. Now the arrest warrant is withdrawn, and a new court date is set. How is this different than the original court date, and what makes him think the person that didn't show up for the court date the first time will show up for the next one?

What happens when they don't show up for this next court date?

So you get a ticket, you don't pay it and fail to appear in court. Your license gets suspended. Now they're giving everyone the license back. What incentive is there for anyone to actually pay their fine or show up for court?? You won't be arrested and your license won't be suspended. Sounds like a recipe for nobody paying anything.

I do think there is/was a lot of screwed up stuff happening, and the city did abuse those who could least afford to be milked for money, so an overhaul makes sense.

It's a way to give everyone a fresh start. Ferguson ran a literal debtors prison. They issued arrest warrants for 75% of the entire population last year. Over half of the entire city/county/whatever revenue came from court fines and fees.

They quite literally pay for half of the budget off of minor infractions. A poor person that is put on a payment plan gets slapped with all kinds of retarded fees, there is even a fee for making your payment! Yes, they charge you to take your cash. If you miss a payment, bam drivers license is suspended and a warrant is issued. Now said poor person is on the way to work and gets pulled over because they are looking to ticket everyone for every single minor infraction they get thrown in jail. They get slapped with even more fines but now they are unemployed because they had to sit in jail for a week.

They even practiced shady shit like giving you a court time of 8:30 but they would close and lock the courtroom doors at 8:00. Meaning that you were on time for court but you can't get in so bam arrest warrant is issued because you missed court even though you were on fucking time.

And while not the fault of the actual cops, they are simply doing as they are told, they are the entity the public sees bending them over and anally raping them without even spitting on it. It's no wonder the public in Ferguson has such a distrust and outright hate of the cops.

Bottom line is that a minor infraction should not fuck up your life. It should not put you in debt that takes years to pay off, of which you generally have to pay in person once you are on the payment plans. A $25 fine should not turn into a $150 fine because of all the bullshit fees that they tack on and missing a court date for not using a blinker should not land your ass in jail for a week. It is so counter productive that it is beyond absurd.

It's easy for those of us that can just mail in the payment after we get the ticket and be done with it to sit here and say "well they should have just paid and they wouldn't be in that position". It's not quite so easy when you can barely afford food. And don't try to say "they shouldn't have broken the law", the city lives off of minor infractions. A cop can follow ANY one of you for 3 or 4 minutes max and find some minor infraction to pull you over and ticket you.

 

[cabri]

Are you serious?

Yes, you are trying to stereotype the poor :thumbsdown:

 

[piasabird]

I dont think everyone has to show up at court if they just pay the fine and mail it in. However, St Louis got my wife on a ticket once and she went in and played the poor little korean woman routine and got the judge to drop the ticket. You would be surprised what you can get reduced or thrown out if you just go to court and plead your case in front of the judge. Often intersections are not well marked or motorists are confused about the way other people drive in places like St Louis, MO. People are always running stop signs without even bothering to stop and you have to really be on your toes looking out for the crazy people.

If you have not been to Ferguson dont try to tell me what it is like. I have driven in and around St, Louis, MO for 30 years and I have never gotten a ticket.

 

[Darwin333]

Here is an idea, don't commit violations and you won't get pulled over. While something needed to be done, there is next to zero repercussions for not following the law, and then not going to court if you get a ticket. Meanwhile... they're still rioting. But they're victims.

There are so many laws on the books that a damn judge can't guarantee that he didn't commit some sort of violation in a days time. Again, I can follow you for 5 minutes and find something worthy of pulling you over and I am not a trained LEO. There isn't a single one of us that can drive absolutely perfect while knowing and obeying every single law, code, violation, etc...

So here's a better idea, don't base half of your cities revenue off of court fines and fees. If everyone was magically able to do exactly what you said the city would go bankrupt so they would just figure out other shit to write you citations for, as is already happening in other towns across the country.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

A cop can follow ANY one of you for 3 or 4 minutes max and find some minor infraction to pull you over and ticket you.

This is so true. The law for turn signals in Oregon is that they must be on for 100 feet prior to making your move. Never mind that 100 feet at highway speeds is less than a second while 100 feet in traffic could take minutes; no, it's solely based on distance, not the amount of time they're on. I had a friend get pulled over under this ordinance by a police officer who had been following her for several miles; turns out the officer thought that a suspect had gotten into her trunk and she was transporting him and used the turn signal law as a bullshit pretext to search the car (the suspect was not, in fact, in her trunk). And the thing was, according to that law, the parking lot she had entered had no legal means of access because the road leading up to it was less than 100 feet long, so there was literally no legal manner to signal intent with the law as written.

 

[Darwin333]

If you have not been to Ferguson dont try to tell me what it is like. I have driven in and around St, Louis, MO for 30 years and I have never gotten a ticket.

You seriously think that in a city that issued arrest warrants akin to a full 3/4 of its population has a perfectly fine justice system?

So I am listening to the radio from 97.1fm newstalk this morning listening to Jamie Almond and this caller calls in. He complains saying he got a ticket in Ferguson and he paid it five years ago. He says they should pay him his money back if all the other people are going to go free. I kind of agree with him.

I think what they really did is undid all the warrants without throwing out all the tickets and fines. They will probably negotiate lower fines and community service and maybe set aside some of them. However, I think everyone should still have to pay their fines. The problem is still that too many municipalities depend on ticket revenue to pay their city bills. I think this should be illegal. All tickets should either go to the STATE or to the police to buy new equipment or to help pay for roads and safety equipment. Why should the city get to keep all the fines to pay for their relatives that they hired?

The police should never have a monetary motivation to fuck with the public.

"Alright officers, if we don't increase tickets by 20% we are going to have to get rid of a few of you"
"Officer Joe Blow wrote 50% more tickets than anyone else in the district so he gets the nice shiny new take home police cruiser"

Just no....

 

[K1052]

Yes, you are trying to stereotype the poor :thumbsdown:

You entirely fail to grasp the context that is being discussed at length in this very thread…seemingly on purpose. It must be comforting to have such a narrow, uncompromising view of the world so as to avoid troubling your conscience.

 

[Darwin333]

This is so true. The law for turn signals in Oregon is that they must be on for 100 feet prior to making your move. Never mind that 100 feet at highway speeds is less than a second while 100 feet in traffic could take minutes; no, it's solely based on distance, not the amount of time they're on. I had a friend get pulled over under this ordinance by a police officer who had been following her for several miles; turns out the officer thought that a suspect had gotten into her trunk and she was transporting him and used the turn signal law as a bullshit pretext to search the car (the suspect was not, in fact, in her trunk). And the thing was, according to that law, the parking lot she had entered had no legal means of access because the road leading up to it was less than 100 feet long, so there was literally no legal manner to signal intent with the law as written.

Exactly. There are hundreds if not thousands of other similar laws on the books and you can bet your ass that when the revenue starts dropping they will tweak the laws to make them even harder to follow.

I was ticketed for an illegal left turn once. I was lit up as soon as I made the turn so I was stopped within 50' of the turn and from where we sat you could see that there was no sign saying that you couldn't make a left. I pointed it out to the officer and he literally told me "well there should be a sign there". Yes I was able to get the ticket thrown out in court because I took a picture of the intersection but for a poor SOB living check to check just to put food on the table to miss a days worth of work over bullshit like that HURTS.

 

[Darwin333]

I understand the problem perfectly well, and as I said earlier I see the need for some type of reform. That doesn't change or impact the points I made in my earlier post. The license suspension etc are meant as teeth to make people pay the fines. If you take that away, what's going to convince them to pay the fine? Similarly, the arrest warrant is to make sure people show up for court. Take that threat away won't magically make those who don't show up for the court dates anyway start showing up.

How does taking away their ability to work help either side? If someone owes me money the last thing I want to do is get them fired from their job.

Frankly I see this as a temporary measure until they completely overhaul the system. A poor bastard with a $150 ticket who needs to go on a payment plan shouldn't end up having to pay $500 due to excessive fees.

 

[Darwin333]

Maybe they should have thought about the consequences of doing the crime and/or violation.

Unless the DL is being suspended on the spot; they have no excuse.
And if suspended on the spot (which an officer can not do), then they were doing something more than a minor offenses or have compounded the issue.

What happens is the person brushes off the violation and then the license is suspended as a result of THAT action.

They have had no problem committing initial violation and ignoring the issue; that is two strikes.

Are they really going to worry about a suspended license after that?
If so, then get alternate transportation to get to work; family or friend. Accept the embarrassment that it causes.

I suggest you actually click the links that you are replying to. I'll even help you out and give you one that starts at the perfect spot, you only have to watch a minute or two.

https://youtu.be/0UjpmT5noto?t=4m3s

Two parking tickets totaling $150 in fines, she has paid more than $500 already and to date still owes over $500. In no reality is that just or fair. It is pure exploitation quite literally at gunpoint.

 

[PokerGuy]

If punishing poor people in this way only makes them poorer and commit more crimes then how effective is it really? "Having teeth" sounds all well and good from a fairness perspective but realistically if the people entering the system have no resources to escape it they generally end up staying there.

So basically, what you're saying is, because fines pose a bigger impact to poor people, we can't have any mechanisms in place that enforce them? What good is a fine if people will just ignore it anyway?

As I said, I completely understand some of the issues raised, and how a fairly benign non-moving violation can cause a negative spiral for those without the means..... but if you're not going to have any enforcement mechanism, then you might as well do away with the regulations. Why have the police issue traffic citations if people can just ignore them anyway?

 

[ivwshane]

I dont think everyone has to show up at court if they just pay the fine and mail it in. However, St Louis got my wife on a ticket once and she went in and played the poor little korean woman routine and got the judge to drop the ticket. You would be surprised what you can get reduced or thrown out if you just go to court and plead your case in front of the judge. Often intersections are not well marked or motorists are confused about the way other people drive in places like St Louis, MO. People are always running stop signs without even bothering to stop and you have to really be on your toes looking out for the crazy people.

If you have not been to Ferguson dont try to tell me what it is like. I have driven in and around St, Louis, MO for 30 years and I have never gotten a ticket.

Are you white?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

So basically, what you're saying is, because fines pose a bigger impact to poor people, we can't have any mechanisms in place that enforce them? What good is a fine if people will just ignore it anyway?

As I said, I completely understand some of the issues raised, and how a fairly benign non-moving violation can cause a negative spiral for those without the means..... but if you're not going to have any enforcement mechanism, then you might as well do away with the regulations. Why have the police issue traffic citations if people can just ignore them anyway?

Literally no one has suggested that there be no method of enforcement, merely that the current method of enforcement is unduly harsh and needs reformation.

 

[cabri]

I suggest you actually click the links that you are replying to. I'll even help you out and give you one that starts at the perfect spot, you only have to watch a minute or two.

https://youtu.be/0UjpmT5noto?t=4m3s

Two parking tickets totaling $150 in fines, she has paid more than $500 already and to date still owes over $500. In no reality is that just or fair. It is pure exploitation quite literally at gunpoint.

Yet there is no explanation as to why the extras costs.

If the lady ignored the tickets, the extra fines are justified. And it would seem that she continued to ignore payment until they ballooned or something forced her to address them.

Listening to your provided link, it is as I expect.
The violators ignored the issue up front and then compounded as a result.

The initial violation may have been valid or not; but ignoring the citation afterwards is downright stupid.

 

[PokerGuy]

Literally no one has suggested that there be no method of enforcement, merely that the current method of enforcement is unduly harsh and needs reformation.

Ok. What other methods of enforcements are there? If someone gets a fine or ticket, they can either pay or not pay. If they don't pay, how does the city/county/whatever collect if the people don't pay and simply don't show up for court dates?

 

[cabri]

How does taking away their ability to work help either side? If someone owes me money the last thing I want to do is get them fired from their job.

Frankly I see this as a temporary measure until they completely overhaul the system. A poor bastard with a $150 ticket who needs to go on a payment plan shouldn't end up having to pay $500 due to excessive fees.

They go on a payment plan and pay it off with a set fee that is reasonable to cover court costs for monitoring ($10-20 per payment). GOOD

When they then choose to not adhere to the payment plan, then what...

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Ok. What other methods of enforcements are there? If someone gets a fine or ticket, they can either pay or not pay. If they don't pay, how does the city/county/whatever collect if the people don't pay and simply don't show up for court dates?

Step 1: Make it illegal for a company to fire someone for showing up to a court-ordered summons if they are appearing as a defendant. There are protections in place for people who are subpoenaed as witnesses, there should be protections in place for defendants as well. Don't force people to choose between their job and their court date.

Step 2: Make fines proportional to income. A $150 fine isn't going to deter anyone with a Ferrari from speeding, but it could represent a very significant hardship to someone below the poverty line.

Step 3: Offer payment plans and wage garnishments as an alternative to a flat fee due all at once. Some systems already incorporate this, but it should be expanded. This also solves the problem of people who flat-out refuse to pay; you enact wage garnishments directly through their employer.

Step 4: Additional fees or fines cannot be above a certain percentage of the original assessed fine. Someone paying over $1,000 in additional fees on top of a $150 fine is insane. If that were happening through a business, the government would shut it down; because it's the government doing it, it's ok? Poppycock. And no additional fees for "processing" the money that is already being paid.

Step 5: Revamp the system for issuing arrest warrants for contempt charges and suspension of licenses following minor traffic violations. If people can't get to work, they can't pay you back.

Now you're still going to have people who refuse to cooperate with the system, in which case, you can use contempt and arrest as a last resort. But you shouldn't be using that against 75% of your population; that's objectively insane.

 

[Ackmed]

I would strongly suggest you read the DOJ's report on Ferguson's municipal court practices and then see what you think. They are unconscionable: (start on page 42!)

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/do...rt-on-the-ferguson-mo-police-department/1435/

Ive read a lot of it. What do you not agree with that I said?

Why would they appear in court to pay fines they cannot pay and miss work that they can't afford to miss (either from lost income or a fear of being fired)? Oh right…they don't.

No, the bottom line is that if you have resources the outcome is different for you. As set up now the justice system fucks the poor pretty badly at every turn for no particular reason other than the pointless moralizing how they should't have violated the law in the first place. The total lack of empathy some people display in the face of all evidence to disproportionate outcomes is pretty remarkable.

You can just say you don't really care what happens to poor people. That at least would be honest.

You think they're all working? You don't think they can set up a payment plan to get over the fees? You don't think they can miss a few hours for of work? Why should I have empathy for someone who continually breaks the law and doesn't care? Then cries foul when punishment comes.

The bottom line IS don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about. And don't keep breaking it. There are some people I don't really give a fuck about. If you're leeching off the government and doing nothing for society I don't care that much for them. They obviously don't.

Did you know that it's perfectly legal to fire someone for failure to miss work because they were in court as a defendant? So you get a court date, you tell your boss "I can't work this day," he says "if you don't come in, you're fired"... What exactly do you do? Do you honor the court and give up your only means of actually paying the fine they are bound to levy against you? Do you pass on showing up because you know the outcome and thereby put yourself in contempt? And is either choice a valid option for something as minor as a traffic violation? We're literally telling people "you committed a violation, you're either going to lose your job or your license, possibly both, along with multiple fines you can't afford and a stay in jail, solely because you don't have enough money to pay." Isn't that a touch excessive?

Did you know that not everyone has a 9-5 job, Monday through Friday? Did you know that not everyone even works? Did you know that you don't have to tell them it is for court, there are such things as personal and sick days. Or extended lunches. Court dates can often times be rescheduled too. Again, this is on the misconception that everyone involved is working. You're going to a serious extreme, we can both do that if you like.

I was a little shit when younger. Got arrested a few times, put on probation a few times. Got my license suspended for too many points, 4 tickets within 15 days, few wrecks that were my fault. 3 in two years. Got pulled over driving on a suspended license, car towed. I live in TN, had to go to Nashville to get it back after taking TWO Saturday "Defensive driving" courses that I had to pay for, and missed work for. My wife and I were both young and made little money. I got a hardship license, other than to and from work my wife drove me around. Talk about making you feel less than a man. Took forever paying the fines off which got compounded by court dates and having to miss work to take care of stuff. Since then I have gotten one ticket, that was almost 20 years ago. It can be done, I was full of excuses then too because I thought it was unfair. As I am older, I can see it was all my fault. I sped, I ran stop signs, I did this or that. Then continued to drive after getting it suspended. It was extremely hard and financially burdening for us at the time. So no I don't buy into the poor excuses of I can't pay, because I don't have money. I can't go to court, because I can't miss work. I can't do this, I can't do that. Suck it the fuck up and do what you need to do.