Judge gives Illegal pass on license.

[sarotara]

I must say that I am appalled after reading portions of this thread... How can some of you advocate throwing illegal immigrants into Guantanamo? You are essentially making the argument that illegal immigrants are as bad as murderers, rapists, etc. The majority of these people come to the US in the hope of improving their lives and not to commit further crimes. The US immigration system is utterly broken and the wait queues for legal immigration into the US are anywhere from 2 to 10+ years. Most illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and (outside of the illegal border crossing) follow the laws. Most of them are paid minimum wage or less for 8-12 hours of hard work. They are exploited by their employers. They do not have insurance and the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured. I know that many of you will offer the counter-argument that when illegal immigrants and/or their children use the public education system and/or public hospitals they are stealing your tax money. I suggest that you look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles 25 and 26.

As for the argument that illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get a driver's license, well, that is completely ridiculous and would make the roads even less safe. Allowing illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license forces them to learn how to drive, if they don't know how to. It also allows them to pay for car insurance. In my experience, which seems to be backed up by road accident statistics, it's the young drivers that cause most accidents.

Before making illegal immigrants the scapegoats for all the problems that the US has I suggest that you look at our broken health care system in which citizens of this country cannot afford to see a doctor, the increasing income gap between the rich and the poor, the overcrowded prison systems which utterly fail at rehabilitating criminals, the corruption and cover-ups in our government, the broken tax system, and the trampling of the US constitution.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: sarotara
I must say that I am appalled after reading portions of this thread... How can some of you advocate throwing illegal immigrants into Guantanamo? You are essentially making the argument that illegal immigrants are as bad as murderers, rapists, etc. The majority of these people come to the US in the hope of improving their lives and not to commit further crimes. The US immigration system is utterly broken and the wait queues for legal immigration into the US are anywhere from 2 to 10+ years. Most illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and (outside of the illegal border crossing) follow the laws. Most of them are paid minimum wage or less for 8-12 hours of hard work. They are exploited by their employers. They do not have insurance and the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured. I know that many of you will offer the counter-argument that when illegal immigrants and/or their children use the public education system and/or public hospitals they are stealing your tax money. I suggest that you look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles 25 and 26.

As for the argument that illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get a driver's license, well, that is completely ridiculous and would make the roads even less safe. Allowing illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license forces them to learn how to drive, if they don't know how to. It also allows them to pay for car insurance. In my experience, which seems to be backed up by road accident statistics, it's the young drivers that cause most accidents.

Before making illegal immigrants the scapegoats for all the problems that the US has I suggest that you look at our broken health care system in which citizens of this country cannot afford to see a doctor, the increasing income gap between the rich and the poor, the overcrowded prison systems which utterly fail at rehabilitating criminals, the corruption and cover-ups in our government, the broken tax system, and the trampling of the US constitution.

Nice bleeding heart rant :thumbsup:

First. The wait is not 2-10 years. Do some research.

Second. Your statement "They are exploited by their employers" is bullshit. If they arent willing to immigrate legally, and therefore receive better pay and beneifts, they arent entitled to it. There is no expoitation at all. If an employer offers a wage and they accept it, it's not exploitive. Nice try though.

Third. Your argument about no health care and "the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured" is complete and utter bullshit. There isnt a hospital in this country who will refuse care for anyone walking in. Period.

Fourth. Your argument of forcing them to learn how to drive is bullshit also. They will not be subject to the same testing and requirements as citizens. Hell, they cant even produce the proper documents to even QUALIFY to APPLY to get a licence. Once again they get a free pass. And insurance? ROFL they wont buy it for all the reasons I've talked about earlier in this thread.

Wake the hell up man.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: sarotara
I must say that I am appalled after reading portions of this thread... How can some of you advocate throwing illegal immigrants into Guantanamo? You are essentially making the argument that illegal immigrants are as bad as murderers, rapists, etc. The majority of these people come to the US in the hope of improving their lives and not to commit further crimes. The US immigration system is utterly broken and the wait queues for legal immigration into the US are anywhere from 2 to 10+ years. Most illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and (outside of the illegal border crossing) follow the laws. Most of them are paid minimum wage or less for 8-12 hours of hard work. They are exploited by their employers. They do not have insurance and the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured. I know that many of you will offer the counter-argument that when illegal immigrants and/or their children use the public education system and/or public hospitals they are stealing your tax money. I suggest that you look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles 25 and 26.

As for the argument that illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get a driver's license, well, that is completely ridiculous and would make the roads even less safe. Allowing illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license forces them to learn how to drive, if they don't know how to. It also allows them to pay for car insurance. In my experience, which seems to be backed up by road accident statistics, it's the young drivers that cause most accidents.

Before making illegal immigrants the scapegoats for all the problems that the US has I suggest that you look at our broken health care system in which citizens of this country cannot afford to see a doctor, the increasing income gap between the rich and the poor, the overcrowded prison systems which utterly fail at rehabilitating criminals, the corruption and cover-ups in our government, the broken tax system, and the trampling of the US constitution.

Nice bleeding heart rant :thumbsup:

First. The wait is not 2-10 years. Do some research.

Second. Your statement "They are exploited by their employers" is bullshit. If they arent willing to immigrate legally, and therefore receive better pay and beneifts, they arent entitled to it. There is no expoitation at all. If an employer offers a wage and they accept it, it's not exploitive. Nice try though.

Third. Your argument about no health care and "the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured" is complete and utter bullshit. There isnt a hospital in this country who will refuse care for anyone walking in. Period.

Fourth. Your argument of forcing them to learn how to drive is bullshit also. They will not be subject to the same testing and requirements as citizens. Hell, they cant even produce the proper documents to even QUALIFY to APPLY to get a licence. Once again they get a free pass. And insurance? ROFL they wont buy it for all the reasons I've talked about earlier in this thread.

Wake the hell up man.

HEY...don't let truth interfere with the bleeding-heart attitude..

Here in Kahleeforneeya, hospitals are closing their emergency rooms because of the vast number of illegals who use the service as their family doctor...then never pay a dime of the bill. Think that doesn't have any impact on US citizens? Checked the prices of health costs lately? If you have good insurance, you probably don't notice the ever-increasing costs of health care, (other than perhaps an increase in premiums) but for those of us who don't have employer-sponsored health care, the costs are spiraling into the stratosphere...as is private health insurance. (My wife & I are both in our mid-50's...BAD insurance (high deductibles and high co-pays) costs between $800 and $1500/month)

I really can't believe people are so gullible to believe that these people who have broken numerous laws to come here and work, (US immigration laws and usually identity theft laws) would automatically get driver's licenses and insurance...Maybe some would, but I really don't think the majority would even bother. They prefer to stay under the "radar" and have as little involvement with the legal system as possible.

Personally, I AM one of those horrible people who thinks ALL illegals should be rounded up and sent back to their native lands...with a total forfeiture of any properties they have accrued while in the US illegally, (kind of like other criminals losing anything they have acfrued by ill-gotten means) as a means of repaying the system for everything they have cost the US taxpayers by being here.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: sarotara
I must say that I am appalled after reading portions of this thread... How can some of you advocate throwing illegal immigrants into Guantanamo? You are essentially making the argument that illegal immigrants are as bad as murderers, rapists, etc. The majority of these people come to the US in the hope of improving their lives and not to commit further crimes. The US immigration system is utterly broken and the wait queues for legal immigration into the US are anywhere from 2 to 10+ years. Most illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and (outside of the illegal border crossing) follow the laws. Most of them are paid minimum wage or less for 8-12 hours of hard work. They are exploited by their employers. They do not have insurance and the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured. I know that many of you will offer the counter-argument that when illegal immigrants and/or their children use the public education system and/or public hospitals they are stealing your tax money. I suggest that you look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles 25 and 26.

As for the argument that illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get a driver's license, well, that is completely ridiculous and would make the roads even less safe. Allowing illegal immigrants to obtain a driver's license forces them to learn how to drive, if they don't know how to. It also allows them to pay for car insurance. In my experience, which seems to be backed up by road accident statistics, it's the young drivers that cause most accidents.

Before making illegal immigrants the scapegoats for all the problems that the US has I suggest that you look at our broken health care system in which citizens of this country cannot afford to see a doctor, the increasing income gap between the rich and the poor, the overcrowded prison systems which utterly fail at rehabilitating criminals, the corruption and cover-ups in our government, the broken tax system, and the trampling of the US constitution.

Nice bleeding heart rant :thumbsup:

First. The wait is not 2-10 years. Do some research.

Second. Your statement "They are exploited by their employers" is bullshit. If they arent willing to immigrate legally, and therefore receive better pay and beneifts, they arent entitled to it. There is no expoitation at all. If an employer offers a wage and they accept it, it's not exploitive. Nice try though.

Third. Your argument about no health care and "the majority of them are afraid to go to a doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured" is complete and utter bullshit. There isnt a hospital in this country who will refuse care for anyone walking in. Period.

Fourth. Your argument of forcing them to learn how to drive is bullshit also. They will not be subject to the same testing and requirements as citizens. Hell, they cant even produce the proper documents to even QUALIFY to APPLY to get a licence. Once again they get a free pass. And insurance? ROFL they wont buy it for all the reasons I've talked about earlier in this thread.

Wake the hell up man.

HEY...don't let truth interfere with the bleeding-heart attitude..

Here in Kahleeforneeya, hospitals are closing their emergency rooms because of the vast number of illegals who use the service as their family doctor...then never pay a dime of the bill. Think that doesn't have any impact on US citizens? Checked the prices of health costs lately? If you have good insurance, you probably don't notice the ever-increasing costs of health care, (other than perhaps an increase in premiums) but for those of us who don't have employer-sponsored health care, the costs are spiraling into the stratosphere...as is private health insurance. (My wife & I are both in our mid-50's...BAD insurance (high deductibles and high co-pays) costs between $800 and $1500/month)

I really can't believe people are so gullible to believe that these people who have broken numerous laws to come here and work, (US immigration laws and usually identity theft laws) would automatically get driver's licenses and insurance...Maybe some would, but I really don't think the majority would even bother. They prefer to stay under the "radar" and have as little involvement with the legal system as possible.

Personally, I AM one of those horrible people who thinks ALL illegals should be rounded up and sent back to their native lands...with a total forfeiture of any properties they have accrued while in the US illegally, (kind of like other criminals losing anything they have acfrued by ill-gotten means) as a means of repaying the system for everything they have cost the US taxpayers by being here.

Oh come on Boomer! If we give illegals DL and a green card those clinics and hospitals would stay open! Get with it man!

(I hope your batteries are fresh BTW)

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Oh come on Boomer! If we give illegals DL and a green card those clinics and hospitals would stay open! Get with it man!

(I hope your batteries are fresh BTW)

Oh hell yes...it's the magical sky-fairy day...LOTS of fresh batteries today...

 

[IGBT]

..give law breakers a license??

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..give law breakers a license??

Among other things.

Common sense has no place in this argument. SHOO!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You all should read more carefully. This isn't about the illegals, it's about the OTHER drivers on the road. The Judge is essentially making the (correct) argument that it's in everyone's best interest if everyone driving around is tested and licensed. Now I realize this doesn't help the illegal immigration absolutists, but the fact is that there are illegal aliens driving around. If you don't like that, deport them, whatever. But until that time, ALSO denying them licenses is stupid and makes it less safe on the roads.

There is a significant difference between "best interest" as the judge sees it and Constitutional law. It is the duty of the judge to follow that law, but clearly decided that his sensitivities outweigh the obligations of his office. To be blunt, the judge has gotten too big for his britches.

You know that the constitution applies to everyone residing in the US regardless of their citizenship status, right? The article didn't say what the judge based his decision on, but I'm betting it's an equal protection claim. It seems pretty clear to me that the states are denying illegal immigrants the ability to drive as a group specifically and I would very much like to hear what you think the state's compelling interest is for doing so. Remember, this is constitutional grounds so strict scrutiny applies.

That all being said, anyone who doesn't want illegal immigrants to have a chance to A.) learn more of the rules of the road that they are going to be driving on anyway and B.) have the opportunity to get insurance.... is insane. The idea that few illegal immigrants would get insurance is also flawed. This comes from a common misunderstanding of who the illegal immigrants in the US are. About 40% of illegal immigrants are people who overstayed their visa's, not migrant farm workers. These people often have the income and ability to get insurance, but are currently prevented from doing so to our manifest detriment.

Not only would these people getting insurance lower YOUR rates, but it just might save your ass. I interned at a personal injury firm for a summer, and if I can tell all you people on thing in this world it would be GET MAXIMUM UNINSURED MOTORIST PROTECTION. It's cheap, and as it stands right now most people have very little of it. If the person who hits you is insured, you're fine... if they are uninsured and you are significantly injured, you are SCREWED. Why would anyone want this situation to continue, specifically denying a group of people the right to remedy it? (how many of them would is certainly debatable, but why in god's name would you PREVENT them from doing it?)

The judge is totally right, and this thread proves it. This debate has nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with highway policies and equal protection under them. If you have a problem with the country's immigration law then by all means change it, making our highways more dangerous is not the way to do so.

 

[EagleKeeper]

In order to get a driver's license, most states (maybe all) required proof of residence and who you are legally via some existing legal record.

I would think that many of these illegals that desire a license can not show the legal record.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
How does this make it anyt safer on the roadways? Do you people REALLY believe that the illegal immigrants (most of whom don't want any kind of public recognitinon) will immediately study for and get driver's licenses and pay for insurance? What about the ones who can't pass the tests? Will they stop driving?
These people break US laws when they cross the border, why do you think they will start obeying US laws just to get driver's licenses and insurance?

Agree,

Plus, we really don't know the true identity of these "undocumented" people. Looks to me like an easy why for them to get fake ID's.

How are you gonna give people such powerful identity card when they have no SS# and you have to "hope" that they are giving their real names?

Also, they could simply run around and amass numerous drivers licenses under different names etc.

Lots of potential for criminal mischief.

Fern

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You all should read more carefully. This isn't about the illegals, it's about the OTHER drivers on the road. The Judge is essentially making the (correct) argument that it's in everyone's best interest if everyone driving around is tested and licensed. Now I realize this doesn't help the illegal immigration absolutists, but the fact is that there are illegal aliens driving around. If you don't like that, deport them, whatever. But until that time, ALSO denying them licenses is stupid and makes it less safe on the roads.

There is a significant difference between "best interest" as the judge sees it and Constitutional law. It is the duty of the judge to follow that law, but clearly decided that his sensitivities outweigh the obligations of his office. To be blunt, the judge has gotten too big for his britches.

You know that the constitution applies to everyone residing in the US regardless of their citizenship status, right? The article didn't say what the judge based his decision on, but I'm betting it's an equal protection claim. It seems pretty clear to me that the states are denying illegal immigrants the ability to drive as a group specifically and I would very much like to hear what you think the state's compelling interest is for doing so. Remember, this is constitutional grounds so strict scrutiny applies.

That all being said, anyone who doesn't want illegal immigrants to have a chance to A.) learn more of the rules of the road that they are going to be driving on anyway and B.) have the opportunity to get insurance.... is insane. The idea that few illegal immigrants would get insurance is also flawed. This comes from a common misunderstanding of who the illegal immigrants in the US are. About 40% of illegal immigrants are people who overstayed their visa's, not migrant farm workers. These people often have the income and ability to get insurance, but are currently prevented from doing so to our manifest detriment.

Not only would these people getting insurance lower YOUR rates, but it just might save your ass. I interned at a personal injury firm for a summer, and if I can tell all you people on thing in this world it would be GET MAXIMUM UNINSURED MOTORIST PROTECTION. It's cheap, and as it stands right now most people have very little of it. If the person who hits you is insured, you're fine... if they are uninsured and you are significantly injured, you are SCREWED. Why would anyone want this situation to continue, specifically denying a group of people the right to remedy it? (how many of them would is certainly debatable, but why in god's name would you PREVENT them from doing it?)

The judge is totally right, and this thread proves it. This debate has nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with highway policies and equal protection under them. If you have a problem with the country's immigration law then by all means change it, making our highways more dangerous is not the way to do so.

It's not that we have a problem with immigration, it's ILLEGAL immigration. You understand we DO have immigration laws saying if you dont have a valid visa, you are in this country ILLEGALLY, right? You realize it's not a bunch of fanatics who created this illegal word, right? Theyre here illegally and we dont want ANYTHING changed other than existing laws enforced!

They are fucking illegals! Per our own laws!

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Farang
The use of the word "illegals" is dehumanizing and has no place in debates on immigration. Nobody agrees with me, though, not even the far-left hippy assholes who want to let all those immigrants in the country.

I see you've already been smacked down by this by people who think words have no power. Ask them whether campaigning on ending the "death tax" is more effective than fighting the dreaded "estate tax". Did many seditious bastards besides RP vote against the PATRIOT Act? And maybe Global Warming get so little political traction because it actually sounds kinda pleasant?

How the argument and issues are phrased is very important and affects us at a slightly less than conscious level. I agree "illegals" is no accidental vernacular, but a calculated attempt to dehumanize the problem. If "a mother who entered the country illegally" dies because she was afraid to call the police when she was injured, that's a human drama. But clearly no one cares if an "illegal" gets shot, they are criminals by definition, right?

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD
How does this make it anyt safer on the roadways? Do you people REALLY believe that the illegal immigrants (most of whom don't want any kind of public recognitinon) will immediately study for and get driver's licenses and pay for insurance? What about the ones who can't pass the tests? Will they stop driving?
These people break US laws when they cross the border, why do you think they will start obeying US laws just to get driver's licenses and insurance?

Agree,

Plus, we really don't know the true identity of these "undocumented" people. Looks to me like an easy why for them to get fake ID's.

How are you gonna give people such powerful identity card when they have no SS# and you have to "hope" that they are giving their real names?

Also, they could simply run around and amass numerous drivers licenses under different names etc.

Lots of potential for criminal mischief.

Fern

We would get their thumbprint and a photograph of the person, which is a lot better than sticking your head in the sand and screaming illegal, illegal, illegal.
I think most states cross check fingerprints and such to see if any other license has the same fingerprint.
It's the job of the feds to remove the illegals, the states have to deal with the failure of the feds to do their job.
I would prefer the illegals all be removed, but if that isn't happening I would prefer that they have drivers licenses and insurance, since they have cars and jobs and are driving on our streets.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD

-snip-

-snip-

We would get their thumbprint and a photograph of the person, which is a lot better than sticking your head in the sand and screaming illegal, illegal, illegal.
I think most states cross check fingerprints and such to see if any other license has the same fingerprint.

-snip-

Where did you get that info from?

Geez, here in NC the DMV doesn't even take fingerprints. How the h3ll are they gonna compare them with other states or even other counties in NC?

Pictures are no help, really.

I don't think you know what you're talking when you mention fingerprints. I think you watch too much CSI.

Fern

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD
How does this make it anyt safer on the roadways? Do you people REALLY believe that the illegal immigrants (most of whom don't want any kind of public recognitinon) will immediately study for and get driver's licenses and pay for insurance? What about the ones who can't pass the tests? Will they stop driving?
These people break US laws when they cross the border, why do you think they will start obeying US laws just to get driver's licenses and insurance?

Agree,

Plus, we really don't know the true identity of these "undocumented" people. Looks to me like an easy why for them to get fake ID's.

How are you gonna give people such powerful identity card when they have no SS# and you have to "hope" that they are giving their real names?

Also, they could simply run around and amass numerous drivers licenses under different names etc.

Lots of potential for criminal mischief.

Fern

We would get their thumbprint and a photograph of the person, which is a lot better than sticking your head in the sand and screaming illegal, illegal, illegal.
I think most states cross check fingerprints and such to see if any other license has the same fingerprint.
It's the job of the feds to remove the illegals, the states have to deal with the failure of the feds to do their job.
I would prefer the illegals all be removed, but if that isn't happening I would prefer that they have drivers licenses and insurance, since they have cars and jobs and are driving on our streets.

I have had a DL in 6 states and never been printed when being issued a license.

When a DL can be used as a valid ID and there are no safguards to insure that the person is whom they say they are, then the validity of the license becomes suspect.

 

[BoberFett]

Don't we always hear people bleating about how driving is a privilege and not a right? Why is it suddenly a constitutional right just because we're talking about illegals?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

Where did you get that info from?

Geez, here in NC the DMV doesn't even take fingerprints. How the h3ll are they gonna compare them with other states or even other counties in NC?

Pictures are no help, really.

I don't think you know what you're talking when you mention fingerprints. I think you watch too much CSI.

Fern

There are a million ways you could implement licenses for illegal immigrants without giving them this "powerful form of identification". Why not do that? Why not make it an inadmissable form of ID for things other then driving? Hell, Spitzer's idea required the illegal person to have a valid foreign passport... a standard far higher then any that we require for actual citizens. That problem is so easily overcome I don't even feel like it's worth talking about.

Also Blackangst, you and all the other nativists here have mentioned many ways in which immigration law could be changed in order to decrease the prevalence of illegals in terms of punishments for employers, etc. I mean I think those are all horrible ideas, but they are at least tangently related to the problem you are trying to solve. Denying people the ability to drive better and get liability insurance so if they hit someone that person can actually get money for their medical bills seems to be mind bogglingly stupid.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoomerD
How does this make it anyt safer on the roadways? Do you people REALLY believe that the illegal immigrants (most of whom don't want any kind of public recognitinon) will immediately study for and get driver's licenses and pay for insurance? What about the ones who can't pass the tests? Will they stop driving?
These people break US laws when they cross the border, why do you think they will start obeying US laws just to get driver's licenses and insurance?

Agree,

Plus, we really don't know the true identity of these "undocumented" people. Looks to me like an easy why for them to get fake ID's.

How are you gonna give people such powerful identity card when they have no SS# and you have to "hope" that they are giving their real names?

Also, they could simply run around and amass numerous drivers licenses under different names etc.

Lots of potential for criminal mischief.

Fern

We would get their thumbprint and a photograph of the person, which is a lot better than sticking your head in the sand and screaming illegal, illegal, illegal.
I think most states cross check fingerprints and such to see if any other license has the same fingerprint.
It's the job of the feds to remove the illegals, the states have to deal with the failure of the feds to do their job.
I would prefer the illegals all be removed, but if that isn't happening I would prefer that they have drivers licenses and insurance, since they have cars and jobs and are driving on our streets.

Oh yeah thats right. If some guy says his name is Jose Vasquez, but it's really Michaela Toro, a thumbprint would reveal that! How clever!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Don't we always hear people bleating about how driving is a privilege and not a right? Why is it suddenly a constitutional right just because we're talking about illegals?

You are mixing two unrelated ideas. When people talk about driving being a priviledge they are almost always referring to people losing their licenses for some sort of driving mishap or offense. This is denying it to them based on their immigrant visa status. The two are not related, and therefore cannot form a compelling reason for the government to be able to deny this group. At least I can't think of a compelling reason, and since this was done on constututional grounds that's what you need.

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would not want these people to have the ability to get licenses or insurance. Since you can certainly make it not a form of valid ID extremely easily, I would LOVE to hear one reasonable argument for why you would want to prevent people from getting insurance which has the singular purpose of saving you money and paying your medical bills if you get into an accident with them.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fern

Where did you get that info from?

Geez, here in NC the DMV doesn't even take fingerprints. How the h3ll are they gonna compare them with other states or even other counties in NC?

Pictures are no help, really.

I don't think you know what you're talking when you mention fingerprints. I think you watch too much CSI.

Fern

There are a million ways you could implement licenses for illegal immigrants without giving them this "powerful form of identification". Why not do that? Why not make it an inadmissable form of ID for things other then driving? Hell, Spitzer's idea required the illegal person to have a valid foreign passport... a standard far higher then any that we require for actual citizens. That problem is so easily overcome I don't even feel like it's worth talking about.

Also Blackangst, you and all the other nativists here have mentioned many ways in which immigration law could be changed in order to decrease the prevalence of illegals in terms of punishments for employers, etc. I mean I think those are all horrible ideas, but they are at least tangently related to the problem you are trying to solve. Denying people the ability to drive better and get liability insurance so if they hit someone that person can actually get money for their medical bills seems to be mind bogglingly stupid.

Let me ask you what I've asked before since no one seems to have an answer...do you HONESTLY think an illegal alien will actually be able to AFFORD insurance based on his wages? Honestly?

And please answer this. What in the world makes you think an insurance company will even insure them? There's no obligation whatsoever. Even so, they will NOT get favorable rates. At best, it will be the same rates as someone who just got THEIR license, which is exhorbidently high. I have yet to see ANYONE from the insurance industry or any company welcoming these new drivers into their insurance pool.

Have you seen the ID reaquirements for citizens to even APPLY for a license? An illegal alien will not have those requirements, so why is it OK to waive them for someone here illegally, but still keep said requirements for citizens?

Please. Id like an intelligent answer.

 

[1EZduzit]

IMHO it's mind-boggling stupid to give give someone here illegaly a legal leg to stand on to get a job. We already have uninusred motorist laws to cover our buts

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Let me ask you what I've asked before since no one seems to have an answer...do you HONESTLY think an illegal alien will actually be able to AFFORD insurance based on his wages? Honestly?

And please answer this. What in the world makes you think an insurance company will even insure them? There's no obligation whatsoever. Even so, they will NOT get favorable rates. At best, it will be the same rates as someone who just got THEIR license, which is exhorbidently high. I have yet to see ANYONE from the insurance industry or any company welcoming these new drivers into their insurance pool.

Have you seen the ID reaquirements for citizens to even APPLY for a license? An illegal alien will not have those requirements, so why is it OK to waive them for someone here illegally, but still keep said requirements for citizens?

Please. Id like an intelligent answer.

Of course they will be able to afford it. Not all of them will, but a significant portion. You do realize (as I mentioned before) that about 40% of illegal immigrants are visa overstays right? That means that a significant portion of these people actually have jobs that can afford insurance.

I guarantee you someone will insure them, who knows what the rates will be. Do you think its a good argument that because you believe you know the insurance rates for illegals will be high that we shouldn't give them the chance to get it? I'm not even sure what your argument is based on, do you have some sort of insider auto insurance company connections? Even if your premise is 100% correct though it doesn't make very much sense. Affordability should have nothing to do with if it is legal or not.

Finally, if you read my earlier post I specifically mentioned that the licenses for illegals could be different then the ones for citizens. It's extremely easy to make an undocumented license of some sort if you're worried about some ID fraud or something. Just make a license that is only good for driving/getting insurance, nothing else. A US citizen would have more stringent ID requirements, but would also get a far more useful license then the illegal would. What's the problem?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
IMHO it's mind-boggling stupid to give give someone here illegaly a legal leg to stand on to get a job. We already have uninusred motorist laws to cover our buts

Interesting idea. First of all, this doesn't have to give anyone a leg to stand on to get a job, secondly I'm willing to bet they aren't competing with you for a job, and thirdly I find it strange that you are willing to subsidize people driving illegally without insurance, but are not willing to put yourself out to get them the means to not drive illegally.

You'd rather pay higher insurance premiums then allow illegal immigrants to buy their own? This is extremely confusing.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Don't we always hear people bleating about how driving is a privilege and not a right? Why is it suddenly a constitutional right just because we're talking about illegals?

You are mixing two unrelated ideas. When people talk about driving being a priviledge they are almost always referring to people losing their licenses for some sort of driving mishap or offense. This is denying it to them based on their immigrant visa status. The two are not related, and therefore cannot form a compelling reason for the government to be able to deny this group. At least I can't think of a compelling reason, and since this was done on constututional grounds that's what you need.

Men lose their licenses all the time for being behind on child support. Hell, it makes their lives even more difficult. Good luck finding a job without transporation. Lots of them probably drive illegally also. Is that unconstitutional as well?

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would not want these people to have the ability to get licenses or insurance. Since you can certainly make it not a form of valid ID extremely easily, I would LOVE to hear one reasonable argument for why you would want to prevent people from getting insurance which has the singular purpose of saving you money and paying your medical bills if you get into an accident with them.

If these are just law abiding people who want to do the right thing, and you expect them to line up in droves to get licenses and pay hundreds of dollars a month in car insurance, can we not expect the same of them when they want to come into this country?

Enough with the double standard.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Let me ask you what I've asked before since no one seems to have an answer...do you HONESTLY think an illegal alien will actually be able to AFFORD insurance based on his wages? Honestly?

And please answer this. What in the world makes you think an insurance company will even insure them? There's no obligation whatsoever. Even so, they will NOT get favorable rates. At best, it will be the same rates as someone who just got THEIR license, which is exhorbidently high. I have yet to see ANYONE from the insurance industry or any company welcoming these new drivers into their insurance pool.

Have you seen the ID reaquirements for citizens to even APPLY for a license? An illegal alien will not have those requirements, so why is it OK to waive them for someone here illegally, but still keep said requirements for citizens?

Please. Id like an intelligent answer.

Of course they will be able to afford it. Not all of them will, but a significant portion. You do realize (as I mentioned before) that about 40% of illegal immigrants are visa overstays right? That means that a significant portion of these people actually have jobs that can afford insurance.

I guarantee you someone will insure them, who knows what the rates will be. Do you think its a good argument that because you believe you know the insurance rates for illegals will be high that we shouldn't give them the chance to get it? I'm not even sure what your argument is based on, do you have some sort of insider auto insurance company connections? Even if your premise is 100% correct though it doesn't make very much sense. Affordability should have nothing to do with if it is legal or not.

Finally, if you read my earlier post I specifically mentioned that the licenses for illegals could be different then the ones for citizens. It's extremely easy to make an undocumented license of some sort if you're worried about some ID fraud or something. Just make a license that is only good for driving/getting insurance, nothing else. A US citizen would have more stringent ID requirements, but would also get a far more useful license then the illegal would. What's the problem?

I read what you wrote. Thats not my problem though. Im not looking at it from a "fully legal document" standpoint, Im looking it from an application standpoint. An application to legally drive has requirements an illegal alien will not be able to provide. Why should the priveledge to drive legally be of less requirement than a legal immigrant or a legal citizen?