Judge gives Illegal pass on license.

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

I read what you wrote. Thats not my problem though. Im not looking at it from a "fully legal document" standpoint, Im looking it from an application standpoint. An application to legally drive has requirements an illegal alien will not be able to provide. Why should the priveledge to drive legally be of less requirement than a legal immigrant or a legal citizen?

Because you could very well be applying for two different things. One of which could simply be a card that says you can drive, and the other is a recognized form of federal/state identification that lets you board planes, apply for other benefits, etc.. etc.

There's simply no way that a license granted to an illegal immigrant would be the same as the license granted to a citizen with full documentation, and therefore they are applying for two very different things. Hence, their applications would be different.

It's the same thing for why passport applications are more thorough then for a state ID card.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Men lose their licenses all the time for being behind on child support. Hell, it makes their lives even more difficult. Good luck finding a job without transporation. Lots of them probably drive illegally also. Is that unconstitutional as well?

If these are just law abiding people who want to do the right thing, and you expect them to line up in droves to get licenses and pay hundreds of dollars a month in car insurance, can we not expect the same of them when they want to come into this country?

Enough with the double standard.

I don't think you are understanding the equal protection argument. Laws that would revoke licenses for people behind on child support are neutral in drafting and in application. There is certainly a viable argument that this is not the case with the granting of drivers licenses.

Your second argument is ridiculous on its face and doesn't really deserve a response. I know you're a smart guy and you already know the answer to that question.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

I read what you wrote. Thats not my problem though. Im not looking at it from a "fully legal document" standpoint, Im looking it from an application standpoint. An application to legally drive has requirements an illegal alien will not be able to provide. Why should the priveledge to drive legally be of less requirement than a legal immigrant or a legal citizen?

Because you could very well be applying for two different things. One of which could simply be a card that says you can drive, and the other is a recognized form of federal/state identification that lets you board planes, apply for other benefits, etc.. etc.

There's simply no way that a license granted to an illegal immigrant would be the same as the license granted to a citizen with full documentation, and therefore they are applying for two very different things. Hence, their applications would be different.

It's the same thing for why passport applications are more thorough then for a state ID card.

/sigh You dont seem to be getting it.

Let me approach it this way. If "Jose Cuervo" applies for a DL, and "Jose Cuervo" is the name on that license, a drivers license isnt only for the priveledge to drive. It is also to track your driving history. What if Jose gets 3 DUI's, what stops him from going and applying for another license in another state under another name, thus leaving behind his past shitty driving history?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1


/sigh You dont seem to be getting it.

Let me approach it this way. If "Jose Cuervo" applies for a DL, and "Jose Cuervo" is the name on that license, a drivers license isnt only for the priveledge to drive. It is also to track your driving history. What if Jose gets 3 DUI's, what stops him from going and applying for another license in another state under another name, thus leaving behind his past shitty driving history?

Lots of things. You can still require other forms of proof of identification such as utility bills, etc... etc. Not only that but if you really wanted to you could require a fingerprint as other people mentioned. There are just so many easy ways to solve this problem, I don't know why we're even discussing it.

EDIT: Fixed quotes

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fern

Where did you get that info from?

Geez, here in NC the DMV doesn't even take fingerprints. How the h3ll are they gonna compare them with other states or even other counties in NC?

Pictures are no help, really.

I don't think you know what you're talking when you mention fingerprints. I think you watch too much CSI.

Fern

There are a million ways you could implement licenses for illegal immigrants without giving them this "powerful form of identification". Why not do that? Why not make it an inadmissable form of ID for things other then driving? Hell, Spitzer's idea required the illegal person to have a valid foreign passport... a standard far higher then any that we require for actual citizens. That problem is so easily overcome I don't even feel like it's worth talking about.

Also Blackangst, you and all the other nativists here have mentioned many ways in which immigration law could be changed in order to decrease the prevalence of illegals in terms of punishments for employers, etc. I mean I think those are all horrible ideas, but they are at least tangently related to the problem you are trying to solve. Denying people the ability to drive better and get liability insurance so if they hit someone that person can actually get money for their medical bills seems to be mind bogglingly stupid.

Here's the answer

An international driver's license must be obtained from your home country. This permit only verifies that you hold a valid license in your home country. It is your foreign driver's license that allows you to drive in the United States. Contact the authorities in your home country to get an international driving permit, as the United States does NOT issue international driver's licenses to foreign visitors.

Link to US gov site

I've lived in several foreign countries, the above rule works quite well.

So, there's already a legal means provided for them to have a drivers license. Why create another huge buerocracy, paid for by us, to cater to illegals who demonstrate that they cannot abide by the rules, to provide yet another means of getting a license?

I don't see how creating 50 (states) new "illegal immigrant" not-real-ID type drivers licenses is going to ensure that they buy insurance. What kind of rates are they gonna get? No driving record etc. I suspect their insurance wil be expensive, thus they won't buy it anyway.

Think of 50 states, each with hundreds of counties and DMVs having to create & administer a parrellel license system and will also have to go out and hire bi-lingual people. What a fvcking expense!!

I buy auto insurance. I've don't recall being asked to provide my drivers license to get auto insurance. On the contrary, I've gotta get proof of my insurance to get a drivers license. How I could need a DL to get insurance, if I first need proof of insurance to get my DL?

So, nothing is stoping these people from geting auto insurance that I can see.

Even if they got insurance to get their new DL, who says you can't cancel? Of course you can.

So, a legal route already exists to get a license here (from your own gov). Nothing stops them from buying auto insurance. We just need to enforce the rules, not create new rules because they can't be bothered to comply with the existing ones.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1


/sigh You dont seem to be getting it.

Let me approach it this way. If "Jose Cuervo" applies for a DL, and "Jose Cuervo" is the name on that license, a drivers license isnt only for the priveledge to drive. It is also to track your driving history. What if Jose gets 3 DUI's, what stops him from going and applying for another license in another state under another name, thus leaving behind his past shitty driving history?

Lots of things. You can still require other forms of proof of identification such as utility bills That does absolutely zip to ensure the person's identity. How hard is it to get somebody else's bill or fool the utility company? , etc... etc. Not only that but if you really wanted to you could require a fingerprint as other people mentioned. This is starting to sound like an arguement for national identity cards for illegals. I find that ironic - talk of documenting undocumented persons etc. Seems the US public doesn't want national identity cards to prove their citizenship, so we issue cards to the illegals, who obviously don't wanna prove their uillegal status etc?. There are just so many easy ways to solve this problem, I don't know why we're even discussing it.

If the problem is uninsured drivers on the road, enforcing existing rules is the solution. If the problem is unlicensed drivers, my post above provides the solution - existing driving rules for non-citizens in the USA. They get their license from their home country.

EDIT: Fixed quotes

 

[blackangst1]

Good points Fern. And youre right. The administration of setting this up is astonomical. National fingerprint database? lol Who's gonna pay for THAT? and lets say Jose racks up a few violations, and applies for another one. Who is going to administer running his new set of fingerprints through a national databse of fingerprints? It's not like CSI where shit pops up in 30 secs.

Jesus. All this bullshit for someone who, per our own laws ALREADY on the books, is here illegally!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

I've lived in several foreign countries, the above rule works quite well.

So, there's already a legal means provided for them to have a drivers license. Why create another huge buerocracy, paid for by us, to cater to illegals who demonstrate that they cannot abide by the rules, to provide yet another means of getting a license?

I don't see how creating 50 (states) new "illegal immigrant" not-real-ID type drivers licenses is going to ensure that they buy insurance. What kind of rates are they gonna get? No driving record etc. I suspect their insurance wil be expensive, thus they won't buy it anyway.

Think of 50 states, each with hundreds of counties and DMVs having to create & administer a parrellel license system and will also have to go out and hire bi-lingual people. What a fvcking expense!!

I buy auto insurance. I've don't recall being asked to provide my drivers license to get auto insurance. On the contrary, I've gotta get proof of my insurance to get a drivers license. How I could need a DL to get insurance, if I first need proof of insurance to get my DL?

So, nothing is stoping these people from geting auto insurance that I can see.

Even if they got insurance to get their new DL, who says you can't cancel? Of course you can.

So, a legal route already exists to get a license here (from your own gov). Nothing stops them from buying auto insurance. We just need to enforce the rules, not create new rules because they can't be bothered to comply with the existing ones.

Fern

You know as well as I do why the international drivers license is not a good answer. Come on man.

You do in fact need a drivers license to get auto insurance (at least in every state I am aware of.) If you do not have a license when you apply for your coverage you are required to get it within 30 days or it is cancelled.

So yes the lack of a license is specifically stopping these people from getting insurance... at least insurance that the company will honor if a claim is made.

EDIT: I screwed up the quotes. And no, the international license is not a viable solution. We all know this. In addition you were completely blowing the costs of this out of proportion and you know it.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You know as well as I do why the international drivers license is not a good answer. Come on man.

No, I don't. It worked fine for me. And I didn't have any trouble getting insurance in Europe (London based company) with my own (USA based) int'l license.

Edit: Letting Mexico (or other relevant home country) handle it's own citizens seems the logical thing to me. Who's in a better position to accurately identfy and issue such licenses?

If the int'l license is not sufficient to get US insurance (which I doubt) then get that changed.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

I don't know why I got sucked into another one of these arguments with the nativists though. I sincerely doubt you guys are actually interested in dealing with this.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
IMHO it's mind-boggling stupid to give give someone here illegaly a legal leg to stand on to get a job. We already have uninusred motorist laws to cover our buts

Interesting idea. First of all, this doesn't have to give anyone a leg to stand on to get a job, secondly I'm willing to bet they aren't competing with you for a job, and thirdly I find it strange that you are willing to subsidize people driving illegally without insurance, but are not willing to put yourself out to get them the means to not drive illegally.

You'd rather pay higher insurance premiums then allow illegal immigrants to buy their own? This is extremely confusing.

You assume too much.

It seems to be to be nothing but plain common sense to know that it's much easier to both get and keep a job if you can drive. I'm surprised anybody would claim otherwise?

Second, what does me competing with illegals for a job have to do with it? Fact is we have a turkey processing plant in our town and it's currently this towns largest employer (by far) with plans for expansion in the works. If I'm not competing dirctly with them I can assure you I know people who are.

Now, about higher insurance premiums. Are you talking car insurance, health insurance or both?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You assume too much.

It seems to be to be nothing but plain common sense to know that it's much easier to both get and keep a job if you can drive. I'm surprised anybody would claim otherwise?

Second, what does me competing with illegals for a job have to do with it? Fact is we have a turkey processing plant in our town and it's currently this towns largest employer (by far) with plans for expansion in the works. If I'm not competing dirctly with them I can assure you I know people who are.

Now, about higher insurance premiums. Are you talking car insurance, health insurance or both?

Mostly just car insurance. Illegal immigrants do not use the health care system much at all.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You assume too much.

It seems to be to be nothing but plain common sense to know that it's much easier to both get and keep a job if you can drive. I'm surprised anybody would claim otherwise?

Second, what does me competing with illegals for a job have to do with it? Fact is we have a turkey processing plant in our town and it's currently this towns largest employer (by far) with plans for expansion in the works. If I'm not competing dirctly with them I can assure you I know people who are.

Now, about higher insurance premiums. Are you talking car insurance, health insurance or both?

Mostly just car insurance. Illegal immigrants do not use the health care system much at all.

Uh-huh, if your illegal you never get sick, you have your babies at home, etc., etc., etc.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Mostly just car insurance. Illegal immigrants do not use the health care system much at all.

That's probably why identity theft is often used for fraudulent charges at hospitals.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You know as well as I do why the international drivers license is not a good answer. Come on man.

No, I don't. It worked fine for me. And I didn't have any trouble getting insurance in Europe (London based company) with my own (USA based) int'l license.

Edit: Letting Mexico (or other relevant home country) handle it's own citizens seems the logical thing to me. Who's in a better position to accurately identfy and issue such licenses?

If the int'l license is not sufficient to get US insurance (which I doubt) then get that changed.

Fern

/concur with Fern. an international license is fine. I have several friends who travel here from SE Asia who drive legally with one.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
I don't know why I got sucked into another one of these arguments with the nativists though. I sincerely doubt you guys are actually interested in dealing with this.

Why do you call all people now ?nativists? that are against illegal immagrants, what about people who have immigrated here legally and become citizens that are pissed to see a group be able to bypass laws just because there are so many here. Should you be called ?criminal supporter? for being pro-illegal.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You assume too much.

It seems to be to be nothing but plain common sense to know that it's much easier to both get and keep a job if you can drive. I'm surprised anybody would claim otherwise?

Second, what does me competing with illegals for a job have to do with it? Fact is we have a turkey processing plant in our town and it's currently this towns largest employer (by far) with plans for expansion in the works. If I'm not competing dirctly with them I can assure you I know people who are.

Now, about higher insurance premiums. Are you talking car insurance, health insurance or both?

Mostly just car insurance. Illegal immigrants do not use the health care system much at all.

That is the joke of the day. Go to any county hospital or emergency room. I guess illegals have no negative effects here.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: rpanic

That is the joke of the day. Go to any county hospital or emergency room. I guess illegals have no negative effects here.

Uhmm, nativist is a common term that has been used for decades.

You guys can try and use your personal opinions as fact all you want, but if you do the slightest bit of research you will see that illegal immigrants use medical services at an extremely low rate. Don't let reputable studies by non partisan organizations refute that chain email you got the other day bashing illegals though.

EDIT: Then again, I can't seem to have quotes show up right.

 

[BoomerD]

Yes, navitist has been used for centuries to describe people who try to oppose those who are different than they are. That doesn't change the argument that the people who break US laws by sneaking into this country, by stealing social security numbers, and dozens of other laws, are ILLEGAL immigrants. True nativists would oppose the legal immigration as well as ILLEGAL immigration. We need to start enforcing existing immigration laws, start deporting ANYONE who is here illegally, whether the've sneaked into the country, or overstayed their visas. IF they want to be here, let them return to their home countries and apply to enter legally, just like others do.

 

[MadRat]

The infrastructure is crumbling under the weight of the globalists that are cutting down the very industries that funded these programs. Heavy industry was a windfall to the government and the loss of these big money industries is crippling the government to fund its most fundemental responsibilities which is securing its own border. Quite frankly giving away the roost and the rooster simply to keep the proverbial fox out of the henhouse was not such a brilliant idea.