Journey to Power Cable Project for my Audio system

[blackangst1]

Yes, they are bit for bit identical, except FLAC is like a zip file that needs to be unpacked during playback. This unpacking process adds noise into the system. I have done two blind tests with interesting results.

1) Put the WAV and FLAC files into a Foobar playlist, pressed random. 99% score.

2) Used Foobar's ABX test, didn't hear a difference. I searched for the reason. I discovered that before the test started, both the files were converted into WAV and placed inside a testing folder, so I was comparing WAV against WAV, and heard no difference.

This shows that I'm not delusional. Because in cases where there was no difference, I couldn't hear a difference.

Yes, I am aware Foobar "rips" both tracks into WAV before playing back in ABX testing; however, youre missing a piece...it will do this with ANY format...192k MP3, 320k MP3, WAV, FLAC, Apple Lossless, etc. However, ABX will analyze bitrate and compression artifacts, among other things. So, really, although youre hearing two WAV files, unless the original files were different, you should hear the exact same output. Since FLAC and WAV are bit for bit identical, you heard no difference. If you were to take a lossless track and ABX test it against a lossy track, although Foobar will still "rip" both tracks into a WAVE file before playing, you WILL hear a difference. The reason you heard NO difference between the 2 files is...well...theyre identical. There was an earlier comment that WAV "sounded" better than FLAC...seeing how both files are bit for bit identical, the difference was psychological. Period.

That said, testing ANYTHING by ear is flawed. You could hear a difference I might not, and vice-versa. This whole discussion of "I hear a difference" has also not taken into account psychological effects. Many, many times people will "perceive" a difference where none exists. This has been proven time and time again. Unless you run a program like REW, ANY results are suspect.

And sorry sdifox for throwing you into the "power cord" bullshit. I guess its time to change the battery in my sarcasm meter

 

[AudioTruth]

There was an earlier comment that WAV "sounded" better than FLAC...seeing how both files are bit for bit identical, the difference was psychological. Period.

No, you are wrong. WAV is clearly superior to FLAC, even when they are bit for bit identical. Unlike you, I use my ears to listen to music, and this shows differences in sound quality. Like I said, the unpacking process of FLAC adds noise into the system, even when both files are identical.

Different transports are also bit for bit identical, and DACs and amplifiers too, but audiophiles can hear differences between them. For the skeptic, the only thing that can make a difference is the speaker, because it's the only one that can be measured. Skeptics don't listen to music with their ears, they listen with their tools.

Most of the skeptics I have talked with have had some sort of ear damage. It's like being a virgin without the right "equipment". They want to feel better about themselves so they troll in threads and say there is no difference. They can't get the eargasms so they try to prevent others from getting them too.

 

[skandl]

@AudioTruth and cheez

I guess I’ll put in my .02 cents. For the power cable gurus please clarify some details for me. In your house or apt did you homerun new runs from the outlets in use to the main junction box? If not all the cables you add would make little to no difference because you are only as good as you last mile. Same is true in the world of telephone lines. You can add a $5k cable made of the twisted hair of seven virgin angels and it will not make an ounce of difference because as you are now aware of the last mile of cable is the same shit used in most homes if new and if older, well you sort of get where I am going. If you did run new runs did you use the same or better quality than the power cables you intend to place on you gear? I would suggest that you not purchase the cables at this point and focus your disposable income on installing a AC to DC to AC power system in your house. See this would be the purest way to clean crappy AC from the power company and insure steady voltage (this is the same principle that telephone central offices use and data centers). Most people who own yachts notice significant gains when running the same setup on their boats versus on their home AC outlets why? Boats use DC to AC power. I don’t know that I buy in to the whole audible difference but that is not for me to judge my ears are different to others.

As far as you ears being in tuned with hearing subtle differences I will not argue that point as we are all human and some of us have lost cert frequencies other are more acute. So to help put an end to some of the debate going on here, if you hear a difference then so be it other may not but that is not to say they are not Audiophiles. See you have confused the true definition of the word so I will assist you with what it is from Wiki:

An audiophile is a person with a strong interest in high-quality sound (usually music) reproduction

When you equate dollars to quality then discriminate against those with less you become an elitist ass not an audiophile. Just my two cents good luck in your future audio endeavors and be a little more humble in your dealing with other audiophiles.

 

[Paul98]

Why are you guys talking to these people, they are clearly trolls.

 

[AudioTruth]

For the power cable gurus please clarify some details for me. In your house or apt did you homerun new runs from the outlets in use to the main junction box? If not all the cables you add would make little to no difference because you are only as good as you last mile.

With that way of thinking, AC plugs would give no differences at all. But they give huge differences.

It's the opposite, the wiring at the end of the chain makes the biggest difference. I was using 3 meters Nordost Valkyrja speaker cable for my headphones, I replaced the last cm with Nordost Valhalla, I heard a HUGE difference. Yes, only one centimeter! The only difference between those two wires was the silver plating depth, 60 microns vs 78 microns. With the deeper silver plating of Valhalla, it sounded clearer, but the microdetails were reduced. Both Valkyrja and Valhalla are colored and only tone controls. I liked to combine them together to fine-tune the sound.

 

[blackangst1]

No, you are wrong. WAV is clearly superior to FLAC, even when they are bit for bit identical. Unlike you, I use my ears to listen to music, and this shows differences in sound quality. Like I said, the unpacking process of FLAC adds noise into the system, even when both files are identical.

Different transports are also bit for bit identical, and DACs and amplifiers too, but audiophiles can hear differences between them. For the skeptic, the only thing that can make a difference is the speaker, because it's the only one that can be measured. Skeptics don't listen to music with their ears, they listen with their tools.

Most of the skeptics I have talked with have had some sort of ear damage. It's like being a virgin without the right "equipment". They want to feel better about themselves so they troll in threads and say there is no difference. They can't get the eargasms so they try to prevent others from getting them too.

First of all, your condescending elitist tone does nothing for your (very incorrect) argument. All it does is make you look like...well...an elitist ass.

If *you* hear differences between bit for bit identical tracks, played through the same hardware, the difference is psychological, or its measurable. Period. Unless, of course, you think your ears are more sensitive than industry recording equipment. *chuckle*

Skeptic you say? Who is the skeptic between someone who can measure with scientific, industry accepted standards, or some jack-ass who says they can "hear" the unpacking of FLAC files? Give me a [redacted] break.

I'll tell you what. *IF* you can hear the difference between two identical tracks in two different formats, then the logical conclusion is that 1. the difference is measurable (meaning, the files arent actually identical), or 2. the difference is psychological. If youre claiming the difference is measurable, post your results.

I suggest you read http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/flac-vs-wav-part-2-final-results-155/]THIS. It is the measuring of two files...one FLAC one WAV. The result? No difference whatsoever. I suspect you wont bother reading it though.

I dare you to post this over at AudioKarma, HeadFi, or AVSForums. You'll get eaten alive.

No profanity in the tech forums please.
-ViRGE

 

[Anubis]

 

[cheez]

Pretty sure you are the young one here. I thought all audiophiles nitpick? I mean, elevating your power bar off the floor made a difference, why wouldn't you be more specific with the shape of the Earth? It's a much bigger difference.

No young man, nitpicking earth not being round doesn't apply to audio. It's stupid. The point AudioTruth was making is that you are stuck to the old believing, such as Earth being flat. You are not open to explore new discoveries such as sound. You are just nit picking that's useless to the discussion for audio.

Let's keep on topic and if you don't have anything useful to contribute for the power cables please try to refrain from posting. I am trying to keep the thread clean here as I am real serious on this power cabling project and AudioTruth has been very helpful with this.

Thanks for your co-operation, young man.....

 

[skandl]

With that way of thinking, AC plugs would give no differences at all. But they give huge differences.

It's the opposite, the wiring at the end of the chain makes the biggest difference. I was using 3 meters Nordost Valkyrja speaker cable for my headphones, I replaced the last cm with Nordost Valhalla, I heard a HUGE difference. Yes, only one centimeter! The only difference between those two wires was the silver plating depth, 60 microns vs 78 microns. With the deeper silver plating of Valhalla, it sounded clearer, but the microdetails were reduced. Both Valkyrja and Valhalla are colored and only tone controls. I liked to combine them together to fine-tune the sound.

I disagree with you evaulation of the AC issue crappy wire to Nordost um WTF. As for sound, as I mentioned in my prior post I will not argue what you or any other can hear even if I do believe you to be full of shit. If you believe you can hear an audible difference and you have the disposable income to support your hobby then dispose away.

 

[JoeBleed]

Yes, it's good to separate the stock cables from each other. Noise can travel from one cable to another even if they aren't touching. I have learned this by ear.

Yes, you could also have learned this by reading a book and finding actual proof this happens.

What i'd love to know is if there is so much concern about noise getting into or out of power cables (and all of your other cables) why don't they have heavy metal braided and solid foil shielding? Why not rewire your house, or at least your music listing room and run all electrical and other wires that run through the walls in rigid conduit and ground that?

I'm still not seeing what you're doing to simple copper wire to improve the electron transfer.

Yes, i'm a big skeptic of these crazy expensive power cables, but i'm trying not to be a jerk. i'd really like to know your reasoning.

 

[sdifox]

First of all, your condescending elitist tone does nothing for your (very incorrect) argument. All it does is make you look like...well...an elitist ass.

If *you* hear differences between bit for bit identical tracks, played through the same hardware, the difference is psychological, or its measurable. Period. Unless, of course, you think your ears are more sensitive than industry recording equipment. *chuckle*

Skeptic you say? Who is the skeptic between someone who can measure with scientific, industry accepted standards, or some jack-ass who says they can "hear" the unpacking of FLAC files? Give me a [redacted] break.

I'll tell you what. *IF* you can hear the difference between two identical tracks in two different formats, then the logical conclusion is that 1. the difference is measurable (meaning, the files arent actually identical), or 2. the difference is psychological. If youre claiming the difference is measurable, post your results.

I suggest you read http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/flac-vs-wav-part-2-final-results-155/]THIS. It is the measuring of two files...one FLAC one WAV. The result? No difference whatsoever. I suspect you wont bother reading it though.

I dare you to post this over at AudioKarma, HeadFi, or AVSForums. You'll get eaten alive.

AudioTruth = Patrick82

 

[sdifox]

No young man, I am probably twice your age. More experience I have.
Nitpicking earth not being round doesn't apply to the audio. It's stupid. The point AudioTruth was making is that you are stuck to the old believing, such as Earth being flat. You are not open to explore new discoveries such as sound. You are just nit picking that's useless to the discussion for audio.

Let's keep on topic and if you don't have anything useful to contribute for the power cables please try to refrain from posting. I am trying to keep the thread clean here as I am real serious on this power cabling project and AudioTruth has been very helpful with this.

Thanks for your co-operation, young man.....

You are 84?

 

[blackangst1]

With that way of thinking, AC plugs would give no differences at all. But they give huge differences.

It's the opposite, the wiring at the end of the chain makes the biggest difference. I was using 3 meters Nordost Valkyrja speaker cable for my headphones, I replaced the last cm with Nordost Valhalla, I heard a HUGE difference. Yes, only one centimeter! The only difference between those two wires was the silver plating depth, 60 microns vs 78 microns. With the deeper silver plating of Valhalla, it sounded clearer, but the microdetails were reduced. Both Valkyrja and Valhalla are colored and only tone controls. I liked to combine them together to fine-tune the sound.

lol you've drunk the juice my friend.

Silver plated you say?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]he reality is silver-plated copper wire is simply a mass produced staple of the commercial cable industry, and readily available at any surplus electronics outlet or parts catalog. It is far less expensive than Teflon co-extruded solid silver wire which is only produced on an individual basis for high-end audio cable companies that can afford it. Silver or tin plating is simply used to protect bare copper from heat/chemical accelerated oxidation.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No valid SONIC advantage can be claimed for silver plated copper wire at audio frequencies. If anything, arguments could be better made for a sonic DISADVANTAGE of silver plated copper! Learning and understanding a little bit about the crucial differences between the nature of audio and RF (Radio Frequency) signals reveals the reasons why.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Only two other valid electrical uses for silver plating exists; at connector contact surfaces and to boost the conductivity of braided mesh shielding material used around coaxial type cables. The later increases shielding efficacy by lowering transfer impedance. It was only a matter of time before this inexpensive and common material found its way into a few high end audio cable designs where it is used as the signal conductor!

At audio frequencies however, any effect silver plated conductors (not connectors) MIGHT have on the signal could only be bad. At audio frequencies, otherwise small differences in simple DC resistance significantly alters impedance. Therefore, the presence of both silver and copper in the signal path is capable of creating two different, frequency dependant, conductive pathways to the signal which is a non-linearity that NO audio cable should be causing, especially not a "high-end" audio cable!

Dont want to take that testimony? How about Kurt at Blue Jeans Cable (who has science behind his claims)?

[/FONT]
Broadcast-quality cables are generally made with copper conductors; but it's not uncommon, in the consumer a/v market, to run into cables made with silver, or silver-plated copper, conductors. Why is this?


There is one respect in which silver is a better material for cable construction than copper: it is slightly (about 5%) less resistive (that is, more conductive) than annealed copper. "Resistance" is the property of any material which causes some of the electricity that flows through it to be converted into heat, and it's fair to say that resistance, in cables, is a bad thing--the less the better. All else being equal, lower resistance ought to be a good thing, and therefore one might think that silver would make for a better cable than copper.


That would indeed be so, but there are some other factors to take into account. First, the resistive loss in high-quality copper cables is already extremely small, because copper, though marginally less conductive than silver, is an extremely conductive metal. For example, Belden 1694A's center conductor resistance is 6.4 ohms per thousand feet. In a very long home theater run of 50 feet, then, the resistance of the conductor is 0.32 ohms, representing a minuscule cause of signal loss in a 75 ohm impedance video circuit; a solid silver conductor would drop this resistance by about five percent, resulting in a truly infinitesimal improvement.


This infinitesimal improvement might be worth something under extreme circumstances, all else being equal--but all else is rarely equal. First, silver is a more brittle material than copper, compromising the cable's flex-life. To solve this problem, silver is often plated over a copper wire--diminishing the conductivity benefit. Second, the conductivity benefit, as often as not, is offset by a reduction in wire gauge. Going from an 18 AWG conductor to a 20 AWG conductor, for example, results in an increase in resistance of over 50%; this swamps the conductivity benefit of silver, so that an 18 AWG copper conductor is more conductive, not less, than a 20 AWG silver or silver-plated conductor. When the comparison is between full-sized copper cables and silver-plated mini-coax of tiny gauge, like those one sees in many popular silver cable products, there's no contest; full-sized copper cables are dramatically more conductive, silver or no silver.

Why arent you using the best cable available...either pure silver or oxygen-free copper?

 

[cheez]

You'd be very surprised as to what people in this forum have in their systems. You seem to be under the impression that a lot of us have cheap systems with cheap wiring jobs. I would venture to say that the opposite is true and a lot of the folks that frequent this section of the forums actually have some very nice setups. For example take crab's setup here: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29028755&postcount=670 .

The system in the link, is an RF city. We are talking massive amount of electrical noise infecting each other. AudioTruth gave you good insight already. Going big doesn't mean you get better sound. It not smart way to jam pack everything so close together like that.

Racks of components are often used for switches and server boxes for the corporations and businesses that are not made for audiophile...

Which I'm reasonably certain blows your system somewhere several zipcodes away.

I'm afraid not. Please read the comment above.


.

 

[JAG87]

 

[blackangst1]

AudioTruth = Patrick82

lol banned. And I see similar posts to the BS he's claiming here, and he got called out for those too.

OK Im done with this guy.

 

[blackangst1]

Yes, you could also have learned this by reading a book and finding actual proof this happens.

What i'd love to know is if there is so much concern about noise getting into or out of power cables (and all of your other cables) why don't they have heavy metal braided and solid foil shielding? Why not rewire your house, or at least your music listing room and run all electrical and other wires that run through the walls in rigid conduit and ground that?

I'm still not seeing what you're doing to simple copper wire to improve the electron transfer.

Yes, i'm a big skeptic of these crazy expensive power cables, but i'm trying not to be a jerk. i'd really like to know your reasoning.

His reasoning so far has been "I hear the difference". In other words, unmeasurable.

 

[cheez]

AudioTruth, incredibly awesome post.

A bigger system equals in worse sound overall. This is because each component generates noise that infects the rest of the system. I used a big $250,000 system before and got worse sound than a minimalist system for $1000. The goal of audio is to get the lowest wattage possible, while giving bit-perfect output. This doesn't require a lot of processing power.

I used a lot of harddrives before, unplugging them one at a time gave a noticeable improvement in microdetail and silkiness. The difference between 2 and 1 harddrives was huge. Then I switched from 7200 rpm to 5400 rpm (Green Power) and got a big improvement. Then I switched to SSD and got another improvement. I improved the system further by removing the SSD and running everything from RAM, huge improvement! I went down to 4 watts power draw at playback and this resulted in the silkiest sound with the most microdetail.

Cheez taking notes. Pen and paper.

No wonder I've been getting a lot of noise / distortion / degrade in signal. My HTPC has 6 hard drives and 5 of them are Raptor 10k rpm drives (full size drive, not the 2.5" version).

Guess what, I put my ear close to the speaker and heard "click" or "tick" or "pop" sound each time when the disc was being accessed.

In every single case, the lowest wattage resulted in better sound. I have Adam A5 studio monitors, I used the "better" model A7 before, but because it uses higher power consumption it resulted in worse sound.

Great point. No wonder my Audioengine A2 speakers sound so good in nearfield listening. And the CMS40 (has smaller amp than the CMS50) sounded better than the CMS50 I have now. One of my CMS50's is going back as it's defective (loud hum from woofer). Should I replace it with another CMS50 or should I go back to CMS40? I sold my laptop so I have more cash for speakers as well (in addition to the White Night Power cable i'm planning to get). I am thinking about getting the AVI ADM9RS speakers but they put out 325 watts (CMS40 - 100watts, CMS50 - 260watts). What should I do??? What would you do if you were me?

Can you please input. Thanks!

cheez

 

[cheez]

The amount of utter nonsense in your post just gave me a good laugh. Thanks, it's good to start out the day with a nice and healthy laugh . I'm still not 100% certain if you're just the biggest troll on this board or if you actually believe the snake oil sales pitch that you're trying to sell. I'll tell you this much though, the only people that are buying the sales pitch are yourself and cheez.

No it's not just AudioTruth and I. There are many folks at other high-end audio forums buy expensive power cords. It is the people (not all, majority) in the anandtech haven't caught up yet. Remember what AudioTruth said about virginity in respect to audio?

 

[cheez]

I forgot to mention the best upgrade ever, it's converting all lossless formats into WAV. It becomes both silkier and clearer with more microdetail and fullness. FLAC has edgy and empty sound that is fatiguing, I couldn't listen to it because it gave me a headache, especially during winter.
I noticed that FLAC used 1% CPU power and WAV used 0%. The unpacking that FLAC does adds noise into the system.
This is similar to the upsampling processors in the dCS stack. It adds noise into the system.
It is sad that people spend more money for worse sound, when they can have crazy eargasms for very low prices.

Cheez taking notes. This is an amazing info. I can't believe I am getting this info for free. You have no idea how thankful I am.
I'm glad. Because I use WAV for all lossless music (from CD). I use 44.1khz 16bit WAV. FLAC did sound a little harsh to me, more like colored, like you said, likely due to the increase in noise in the system.

 

[blackangst1]

Wow...so he's also the (brain?) owner of Coconut Audio? haha...the thread on Audiogon about this is awesome.

OK Im done with this thread. Thanks for the enlightenment sdifox

 

[AudioTruth]

First of all, your condescending elitist tone does nothing for your (very incorrect) argument. All it does is make you look like...well...an elitist ass.

If *you* hear differences between bit for bit identical tracks, played through the same hardware, the difference is psychological, or its measurable. Period. Unless, of course, you think your ears are more sensitive than industry recording equipment. *chuckle*

Skeptic you say? Who is the skeptic between someone who can measure with scientific, industry accepted standards, or some jack-ass who says they can "hear" the unpacking of FLAC files? Give me a [redacted] break.

I'll tell you what. *IF* you can hear the difference between two identical tracks in two different formats, then the logical conclusion is that 1. the difference is measurable (meaning, the files arent actually identical), or 2. the difference is psychological. If youre claiming the difference is measurable, post your results.

I suggest you read http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/flac-vs-wav-part-2-final-results-155/]THIS. It is the measuring of two files...one FLAC one WAV. The result? No difference whatsoever. I suspect you wont bother reading it though.

I dare you to post this over at AudioKarma, HeadFi, or AVSForums. You'll get eaten alive.

I have already done it 5 and half years ago: http://www.head-fi.org/t/242039/flac-is-brighter-than-wav

Others have followed: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=109590
http://www.head-fi.org/t/366271/flac-vs-wav-format-surprising-quality-differences
http://www.audiostream.com/content/cut-flac
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=84171

 

[AudioTruth]

lol you've drunk the juice my friend.

Silver plated you say?


Dont want to take that testimony? How about Kurt at Blue Jeans Cable (who has science behind his claims)?
[/B]


Why arent you using the best cable available...either pure silver or oxygen-free copper?

I never said silver plated copper is the best, it's the most colored because it makes it jittery. The best is oxygen-free copper that I use in my own cables. I also use Blue Jeans Cable that I modify. A great cable for skeptics with real measured performance, then I add crystal formulas around it for cleaning power and audiophile musicality.

 

[AudioTruth]

AudioTruth, incredibly awesome post.

Cheez taking notes. Pen and paper.

No wonder I've been getting a lot of noise / distortion / degrade in signal. My HTPC has 6 hard drives and 5 of them are Raptor 10k rpm drives (full size drive, not the 2.5" version).

Guess what, I put my ear close to the speaker and heard "click" or "tick" or "pop" sound each time when the disc was being accessed.


Great point. No wonder my Audioengine A2 speakers sound so good in nearfield listening. And the CMS40 (has smaller amp than the CMS50) sounded better than the CMS50 I have now. One of my CMS50's is going back as it's defective (loud hum from woofer). Should I replace it with another CMS50 or should I go back to CMS40? I sold my laptop so I have more cash for speakers as well (in addition to the White Night Power cable i'm planning to get). I am thinking about getting the AVI ADM9RS speakers but they put out 325 watts (CMS40 - 100watts, CMS50 - 260watts). What should I do??? What would you do if you were me?

Can you please input. Thanks!

cheez

Use CMS40 because it gives better sound. It would be a waste of money to increase wattage and get worse sound. It's also better for the environment. Skeptics destroy the environment while the true audiophiles make the world a better place. This thread is the proof of that, just look at all the swearing by the skeptics, and pictures of large, power hungry systems. In the future, a mental hospital will be opened up for these people.

 

[AudioTruth]

OK Im done with this guy.

Skeptics always come and go. Then a few years later they appear again to share about their eargasms after trying power cables. A decade ago I didn't believe in cables myself, then I heard the truth.