Jordan Neely killed on the subway by marine veteran. Hero or killer?

[MrSquished]

I pulled it from several posts. I won't quote them and bring them over here in further detract from the topic here.

No I haven't. I find this very amusing. Yes I do think if you know what Ron DeSantis is doing and you vote for him you are a terrible person. And pcgeek Reads these forums and clearly political news and clearly has read what we post about the Sanctus and I'm pretty sure he's still definitely supports him. I'm almost positive he posted about liking deSantis. Who is a total evil fascist piece of shit person.

This does not mean I don't think you can be a terrible person if you don't vote at all or vote for someone else though. Of course you can. You could have voted for Obama or voted for nobody and still be a terrible person. Has nothing to do with who you voted for that's all in those cases.

So at this point you are making things up and feel free to apologize.

So please show me where I said that.

And PC geek is still here defending the homicide again and again. Yes he is a fucking terrible person and you're not going to convince me otherwise cuz I'm not stupid and naive. I know history and I know how these people are.

 

[MrSquished]

It's pretty amusing watching a piece of shit person like PC geek talk shit about a subway he's never been on, and justify the murder of someone on it because we know the guy was poor and black and being a nuisance.

He enjoys that part of himself. It doesn't matter that kids, old ladies, old men, girls in skirts and going out every walk of life uses the subway millions of rides a day and it's nothing like he describes it. But he enjoys being ignorant because he likes to live in his world of racist bigoted right wing hate, no matter what evidence he finds out to the contrary. This is the important part.

And he's going to continue to defend this murder, and he's going to continuously spread willfully ignorant misinformation about everything that has to do with liberals in any way, in this case a mass transit system of New York City, Long a Target of conservatives. He's told otherwise but he doesn't want to know any better he enjoys his terribleness. He's been on here for years and is still this way and here so much information is posted that is real factual data that contradicts his positions but he does not give a shit.

He will never become a better person. We've seen him over the years and he he is defending murder and saying the same bullshit again, so I feel quite comfortable calling him a terrible person. He literally has devalued the murder victim's life to nothing. That's exactly what the most terrible segments of populations in history do, Make other people's lives worthless enough to be dead. And why the horrible things that have happened in modern history to other people have happened. I don't want anybody to choke PC geek to death I just want to acknowledge that he's the enemy. And for us to prepare defense against these people.

He is exactly the kind of person that made up the populations of nations and modern history whose regimes did the most horrible shit we have ever heard of. I can see PCGeek as a good nazi in 1930's Germany. That jew acted up too many times on the subway and so he got the short end of the stick this time, no biggie, it was just an accident, let the perp free. It's all the same, they are the same people. Today it's just being black and poor.

Fuck that guy. It's as clear as day to me and it's only going to get more clear anytime he opens his mouth.

 

[Paratus]

I don't live or visit NYC. I want no part of it.

I did ride many trains etc in Europe, but they don't have these issues. At least not when I last went there.

To put this in terms you might understand you sound like someone who’s never held a gun afraid to touch it because it’ll go off if you look at it wrong. They’ve internalized a whole bunch of shit that while there is a kernel of truth has been blown out of proportion.

New York does have crime but a lot less than most and quite frankly it’s an amazing place to visit.

 

[tweaker2]

Apparently the guy didn't know the difference between a choke hold and a sleeper hold on the fella's neck he got ahold of.

That being said, an involuntary manslaughter sentence with the appropriate punishment seems alright by me, along with conviction being expunged after completion of parole.

 

[skyking]

No I haven't. I find this very amusing. Yes I do think if you know what Ron DeSantis is doing and you vote for him you are a terrible person. And pcgeek Reads these forums and clearly political news and clearly has read what we post about the Sanctus and I'm pretty sure he's still definitely supports him. I'm almost positive he posted about liking deSantis. Who is a total evil fascist piece of shit person.

This does not mean I don't think you can be a terrible person if you don't vote at all or vote for someone else though. Of course you can. You could have voted for Obama or voted for nobody and still be a terrible person. Has nothing to do with who you voted for that's all in those cases.

So at this point you are making things up and feel free to apologize.

So please show me where I said that.

And PC geek is still here defending the homicide again and again. Yes he is a fucking terrible person and you're not going to convince me otherwise cuz I'm not stupid and naive. I know history and I know how these people are.

Here you go.
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ed-dispute-over-tablet.2612973/#post-41016914

You assume who somebody votes for, like it matters.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/stupid-nazi-doing-stupid-nazi-things.2612715/#post-41010264


I am beginning to see a pattern here.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...treated-like-an-animal.2610431/#post-40946719

We could do this all day. Why are you so triggered by the boogeyman, that you must insert him everywhere?

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...m-in-elementary-school.2610765/#post-40955525

Odds are this one does not vote at all.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ntimidate-black-family.2609036/#post-40904252


I have no issue with you, except this constant insertion of the boogeyman. You attribute an imaginary action to people you know nothing about.

 

[woolfe9998]

So it's the family's fault that Penny saw a mentally ill homeless person as an opportunity to get away with murder?

What makes you think that exactly? Clearly the DA doesn't think that, or he would have been charged with more than MAN2. MAN2 would be premised on the theory that the threat Penny perceived was too low to justify force, or too low to justify the level of force. If the DA had evidence that he was out hunting for a victim he would have been charged with murder.

Because somehow, in many people's minds (including yours apparently), it should be lawful to be able to play judge, jury, and executioner with any people you might find undesirable?

Nah, if Penny merely thought he was "undesirable," there are always a plethora of such people on any big city subway system. Pretending that Penny's actions had nothing to do with Neely's behavior is being silly.

I wholeheartedly agree that mentally ill people need help. Including your particular antisocial mental illness as well.
The power of the law resides solely with the police and the courts for a reason. Because if it didn't, we'd have sociopathic crazies like Penny out there murdering people they don't like everyday, pretending they're some kind of 'good guy' comic book hero when they're anything but.

And BTW, why were those mental institutions closed down in the first place?

You should read the wiki on this incident, because it summarizes everything in the news stories.

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most of these facts are going to help Penny at trial. For example, two other men pinned Neely's arms while Penny applied the chokehold. Clearly they both also thought that Neely was a threat. Also, I'll just quote this here:

The same witness noted that nobody on the train car was telling the ex-marine to stop his chokehold, and that some passengers expressed hostile statements towards Neely and expressed support for the ex-marine's actions.

One person did say after awhile that he should ease up, and he did but it was too late. But initially, no one had a problem with what Penny was doing. This wasn't the George Floyd case where everyone was standing around shouting at the police to stop. It was the opposite.

Also, Neely had a record of four violent assaults for which he's been charged with felonies, including one on the subway and another on a train platform. This may not come in at trial because Penny didn't know about them but it tends to increase the likelihood that Penny's and everyone else's perception that Neely was a threat was not unreasonable. (Edit: one was a felony, not sure about the other three.)

According to a police officer, Neely had been arrested 42 times by the NYPD.[55][56] Most the arrests were for petty offenses, such as loitering and trespassing;[57] however, three of the arrests were for unprovoked assaults on women in the NYC subway,[55][56] and one was for assaulting a 68-year-old man on a subway platform in 2019.[58][13] Other arrests, in 2020 and 2021, included those for criminal contempt, after violating a restraining order, and public lewdness, for exposing himself to a female stranger.[59][60][additional citation(s) needed] Neely pled guilty in 2015 to endangering the welfare of a child after dragging a 7-year-old girl down a street; he was sentenced to four months in jail.[61][62][63]

At the time of his death, he was subject to a 15-month alternative to incarceration program after pleading guilty in February 2023 to felony assault of a 67-year-old woman, whom he had punched as she exited a train station in November 2021, breaking her nose and fracturing an orbital bone. Under the terms of the program, Neely was to live in a treatment facility in the Bronx. He had a warrant issued for his arrest after he missed a court date to update a judge on his progress and abandoned the treatment facility 13 days after he started the program.

All this leaves the prosecution in a position of essentially conceding that a use of force was reasonable but that the level of force was either too long or too severe. The problem with that sort of argument is that once you've conceded to a jury that force was necessary because Neely was dangerous, they're not likely to second guess the amount of force used.

If in fact the defense will bring a parade of witnesses to testify to how afraid they were of Neely, I think the prosecution will be sunk.

This case is weaker than the Goetz case back in the 80's, as IIRC no one but Goetz and the victims witnessed the incident, so Goetz had no support from onlookers as Penny will, yet Goetz was acquitted anyway. I wouldn't get your hopes up on this one.

 

[Leeea]

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a great link.

I know I said this many pages back in this thread.

But I think no jury that rides the subway is going to find him guilty.

 

[HomerJS]

You don't have any thoughts on the other case or are you just avoiding it.

In this universe obviously.

I do not think Penny intentionally killed anyone. I do believe that Mr. Neeley acting the fool too many times ( long record of misbehaviour ) and he came up on the short end of the stick this time. There were other riders on the subway that also agree with this.

I answered your question. Now answer mine what are your thoughts on the stabbing incident?

You didn't answer the question. You just continue claim it was accidental. I will ask you one more time...

How can a well trained person applying a rear naked choke for 15 minutes killing someone be deemed accidental?

Penny knows exactly what he is doing because he is a trained Marine. Just like MMA fighters are trained to apply a rear naked choke.

You have yet to answer that question. Until you do we can't continue the discussion. Answer my question and I will answer yours.

 

[woolfe9998]

"Accidental" may not be the best way to put it. "No intent to kill" is a better way, meaning Penny's actions were not an accident, but the result was unintended. Another fact contained in the wiki is that Penny asked the other passengers to call the police after he started his chokehold. Because he wanted the police to take over the handling of Neely. This strongly suggests that his intent was to protect the other passengers rather than to harm Neely. He may have applied too much pressure, overcompensating. But this will be a tough sell to a jury.

Also, on the issue of mental health treatment which everyone seems to agree on, the wiki says this:

At the time of his death, Neely was on the "Top 50 List", a roster maintained by New York City of the homeless individuals most in need of assistance and treatment. Specialized outreach teams had contacted him hundreds of times, and he was treated by one of the city-funded Intensive Mobile Treatment teams.

Clearly nothing short of reopening state institutions would have helped here, as Neely was getting about as much care as any homeless person with mental illness, short of being in an inpatient facility.

 

[feralkid]

Clearly nothing short of reopening state institutions would have helped here

Woah, Daddy...I cannot believe you would make such an ill-informed statement. There is plenty that can be done to improve the state of mental health care in the USA, without having to "reopen state institutions".

Did I miss some sarcasm?

 

[woolfe9998]

Woah, Daddy...I cannot believe you would make such an ill-informed statement. There is plenty that can be done to improve the state of mental health care in the USA, without having to "reopen state institutions".

Did I miss some sarcasm?

I didn't say there wasn't. I'm talking about the specific case of Neely, who had been identified as being in the top 50 homeless in need of mental health care and had received a very large volume of attention and treatment in an outpatient setting. For HIM, it doesn't seem that anything short of getting him into an inpatient facility would have prevented this.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

To put this in terms you might understand you sound like someone who’s never held a gun afraid to touch it because it’ll go off if you look at it wrong. They’ve internalized a whole bunch of shit that while there is a kernel of truth has been blown out of proportion.

New York does have crime but a lot less than most and quite frankly it’s an amazing place to visit.

And the subway is usually just fucking boring, aside from the occasional guy who chokes people to death I suppose.

 

[HomerJS]

"Accidental" may not be the best way to put it. "No intent to kill" is a better way, meaning Penny's actions were not an accident, but the result was unintended. Another fact contained in the wiki is that Penny asked the other passengers to call the police after he started his chokehold. Because he wanted the police to take over the handling of Neely. This strongly suggests that his intent was to protect the other passengers rather than to harm Neely. He may have applied too much pressure, overcompensating. But this will be a tough sell to a jury.

Also, on the issue of mental health treatment which everyone seems to agree on, the wiki says this:



Clearly nothing short of reopening state institutions would have helped here, as Neely was getting about as much care as any homeless person with mental illness, short of being in an inpatient facility.

If I held someone's head underwater for 15 minutes in a pool to get them to stop pinching girl's asses and he dies, did I accidently kill him?

A layman knows if you hold someone's head underwater for 15 minutes you will likely kill them. A person trained in applying a rear naked choke knows applying it for 15 minutes will likely kill.

 

[skyking]

I didn't say there wasn't. I'm talking about the specific case of Neely, who had been identified as being in the top 50 homeless in need of mental health care and had received a very large volume of attention and treatment in an outpatient setting. For HIM, it doesn't seem that anything short of getting him into an inpatient facility would have prevented this.

you can't call that an informed statement, unless you want to go back to him at 14 when his mother is brutally murdered. That is also a common age for the onset of schizophrenia.
His aunt stated that they tried to get him help then, and it was all about the money.

 

[woolfe9998]

If I held someone's head underwater for 15 minutes in a pool to get them to stop pinching girl's asses and he dies, did I accidently kill him?

A layman knows if you hold someone's head underwater for 15 minutes you will likely kill them. A person trained in applying a rear naked choke knows applying it for 15 minutes will likely kill.

I doubt that, because there is enormous variation in the amount of possible pressure applied. You could chokehold someone for 2 hours without any resulting injury, if the pressure is minimal, or kill someone in less than a minute. Eric Garner died after a 12 second chokehold from a police officer,

In order to know it, he'd have to literally have experienced choke holding various people at differing pressures for 15 minutes to see who died and who didn't. What Penny had was training in the technique, which probably involved a simulated low pressure chokehold in a training scenario, which undoubtedly didn't go on for more than seconds.

What you're arguing is probably a good preview of what the prosecution will argue at trial. Let's see how the jury responds.

One final point: do you really think Penny intended to murder someone in full view of a lot of other people? Could he be that sure of avoiding legal jeopardy that he would purposefully kill someone who was a stranger to him?

 

[pcgeek11]

So it's the family's fault that Penny saw a mentally ill homeless person as an opportunity to get away with murder? Because somehow, in many people's minds (including yours apparently), it should be lawful to be able to play judge, jury, and executioner with any people you might find undesirable?
I wholeheartedly agree that mentally ill people need help. Including your particular antisocial mental illness as well.
The power of the law resides solely with the police and the courts for a reason. Because if it didn't, we'd have sociopathic crazies like Penny out there murdering people they don't like everyday, pretending they're some kind of 'good guy' comic book hero when they're anything but.

And BTW, why were those mental institutions closed down in the first place?

I do not believe that Mr. Penny set out to kill anyone. I never said it should be lawful to play judge jury and executioner for undesirable people. You are just making shit up at that point.

"Including my antisocial mental illness as well" LOL When did you become an internet Psychologist. How did you come to the conclusion that Mr. Penny was a Sociaopathic Crazy.

 

[pcgeek11]

You didn't answer the question. You just continue claim it was accidental. I will ask you one more time...

How can a well trained person applying a rear naked choke for 15 minutes killing someone be deemed accidental?

Penny knows exactly what he is doing because he is a trained Marine. Just like MMA fighters are trained to apply a rear naked choke.

You have yet to answer that question. Until you do we can't continue the discussion. Answer my question and I will answer yours.

I have answered your question as well as possible.

Neither of us know how "Well Trained" Mr. Penny was. He wasn't and isn't an MMA Fighter as far as I know.

Do you think he intentionally killed Mr. Neeley?


Now answer my question or are you going to continue to evade, dodge and weave?

 

[HomerJS]

I doubt that, because there is enormous variation in the amount of possible pressure applied. You could chokehold someone for 2 hours without any resulting injury, if the pressure is minimal, or kill someone in less than a minute. Eric Garner died after a 12 second chokehold from a police officer,

In order to know it, he'd have to literally have experienced choke holding various people at differing pressures for 15 minutes to see who died and who didn't. What Penny had was training in the technique, which probably involved a simulated low pressure chokehold in a training scenario, which undoubtedly didn't go on for more than seconds.

What you're arguing is probably a good preview of what the prosecution will argue at trial. Let's see how the jury responds.

One final point: do you really think Penny intended to murder someone in full view of a lot of other people? Could he be that sure of avoiding legal jeopardy that he would purposefully kill someone who was a stranger to him?

I don't know the answer to that, but drunk drivers don't intend to kill people either yet if they do, they are charged and convicted of homicide/manslaughter.

 

[HomerJS]

I have answered your question as well as possible.

Neither of us know how "Well Trained" Mr. Penny was. He wasn't and isn't an MMA Fighter as far as I know.

Do you think he intentionally killed Mr. Neeley?


Now answer my question or are you going to continue to evade, dodge and weave?

If someone starts a physical altercation and you defend yourself with a weapon it can possibly be justified.

At a minimum Penny should be convicted like a drunk driver who kills someone. They didn't intend to kill but their recklessness resulted in a death. As for the intent of Penny a jury will decide.

If he got the same training as all Marines of his type I assume he must have been well trained. A rear naked choke is taught similarly Marine, police or MMA fighter.

I asked ChatGPT if Marines are trained in restraining an individual. The answer indicated Penny had non-lethal options.

Marines receive training in various aspects of close-quarters combat and self-defense, which includes techniques for restraining individuals. The specific training they receive may vary depending on their military occupational specialty (MOS) and the nature of their assigned duties. However, as a general principle, Marines are taught basic techniques for controlling and restraining individuals when necessary.

Some of the training they may receive includes:

1. Basic Martial Arts: Marines undergo training in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), which combines elements of various martial arts techniques. This training equips Marines with the skills to defend themselves and others, including techniques for restraining individuals using joint locks, pressure points, and leverage.
2. Non-Lethal Tactics: Marines may receive training in non-lethal tactics and techniques to handle situations where the use of deadly force is not warranted. This training may include methods for controlling and restraining individuals using handcuffs, flexicuffs, or other restraint devices.
3. Military Police Training: Marines who serve as military police or in related MOSs undergo specialized training in law enforcement and security operations. This training covers arrest and control techniques, including how to safely detain and restrain individuals while minimizing the risk of injury.

 

[brycejones]

I have answered your question as well as possible.

Neither of us know how "Well Trained" Mr. Penny was. He wasn't and isn't an MMA Fighter as far as I know.

Do you think he intentionally killed Mr. Neeley?


Now answer my question or are you going to continue to evade, dodge and weave?

It's funny that a poster who frequently refuses to directly address questions demands others respond to his.

 

[pcgeek11]

It's funny that a poster who frequently refuses to directly address questions demands others respond to his.

I always address questions. Sorry you can't understand the answers.

I haven't "Demanded" anything.

You don't know the difference between demanding and asking?

 

[pcgeek11]

If someone starts a physical altercation and you defend yourself with a weapon it can possibly be justified.

At a minimum Penny should be convicted like a drunk driver who kills someone. They didn't intend to kill but their recklessness resulted in a death. As for the intent of Penny a jury will decide.

If he got the same training as all Marines of his type I assume he must have been well trained. A rear naked choke is taught similarly Marine, police or MMA fighter.

I asked ChatGPT if Marines are trained in restraining an individual. The answer indicated Penny had non-lethal options.

The court will sort it out. I feel good about his chances of beating this charge.

 

[brycejones]

I always address questions. Sorry you can't understand the answers.

I haven't "Demanded" anything.

You don't know the difference between demanding and asking?

LOL, I doubt I'm the only one here that sees your typical behavior differently but self awareness and reflection has never been your way here.

 

[skyking]

The court will sort it out. I feel good about his chances of beating this charge.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there. You feel good that he's going to get away with killing somebody with no charge?
That's the kind of world you want to live in?

 

[MrSquished]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there. You feel good that he's going to get away with killing somebody with no charge?
That's the kind of world you want to live in?

He's been pretty clear on this, that's exactly how he feels. He said this guy fucked around too much and got the short end of the stick this time, it's all good, and Penny should get off it was clearly an accident.

This is not the first time he has despicable positions on things. He has been consistently horrible on so many things.

This is why I know he is a terrible person, or you can say, such a damaged soul that in our lifetime, we need to just consider him terrible, because he will go with the worst instincts in society at the end of the day. Even if he doesn't agree with 110% of them, he will. He will never redeem himself. Maybe in a different life with many more resources and exposure to things, it could have turned out different, but that is of no meaning to us if we want to defend good vs evil now in this lifetime. Know your enemy.

I know it's hard for some people to accept how evil fellow humans are, and I see that in your posts, but it's time to start.