Jon Stewart makes vaccinations-'Walking Dead' analogy so everyone can understand

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Honestly this is one of those issues where I don't really care to persuade them. They are a fringe group that is actively threatening vulnerable members of society due to their belief in some pseudoscience. I just say mandate vaccination except in cases where it threatens the health of the child and be done with it.

Agreed. Its a waste of time/resources to try and change peoples minds.

Those who don't comply can leave. Unless they can provide evidence to support their claims, then society should move forward. Not forcing them to get vaccines effects 3rd parties. If vaccines gave you 100% protection, then I would say screw them if they get a virus. But, because vaccines are not 100% effective, you are putting those whom it did not work at risk.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,561
206
106
Wait, what are "deniers" denying?

Is it surprising to anyone that calling someone stupid or some other insult simply galvanizes their belief and makes them even *less* likely to be persuaded by evidence, regardless of validity of their beliefs?

I'm firmly in the pro-vaccine camp and absolutely think kids should be vaccinated. Apparently the vast majority of the population agrees.

Side effects -- though rare -- are real and can be devastating. Anyone with a basic understanding of statistics knows statistically it makes sense to vaccinate, the risks are much smaller than the benefits. However, I'd rather continue to educate people so they want to get vaccinated rather than trying to punish or vilify those that don't, because that's simply going to be counterproductive. It's going to create a growing backlash of entrenched people who will refuse to go along. We keep hearing about "growing" numbers of those who don't get vaccinated, but in reality it's a very small percentage. Why focus on "fixing" that small percentage and forcing them into compliance instead of focusing our energy on educating people so they continue to want to get vaccinated?

Educating them in shown not to work unfortunately. We know some simply refuse to believe any new evidence because they believe there is a Jesse Ventura style conspiracy and no matter how much evidence you show them it is faked.

Why the others do not convert is unknown but it does not work. Freakomonics had a podcast about it recently.

http://freakonomics.com/2015/01/08/...flu-vaccine-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

There’s also a sizable group of people with “vaccine hesitancy,” who generally dislike the idea of immunization. Some of these skeptics hold beliefs about vaccines that are demonstrably wrong — but they are hard to budge. Research by the political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler, for instance, shows that when such people are given scientific information to dispute vaccine myths, they become less likely to get the vaccine.

Perhaps our passion to show them the facts makes us look too good to be true and thus non believable.
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,616
15,177
136
Perhaps our passion to show them the facts makes us look too good to be true and thus non believable.

I read in another article on the study done and it's more a matter of motivated reasoning. People become less prone to spout myths if you show them the facts, but they'll simply move the goal posts and become more entrenched in their existing position.
 

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
406
126
It's not possible to "prove" that vaccines do NOT cause autism. All that can be done is to do studies and report no correlation found between vaccinations and autism.

But the problem is that people hear anecdotal accounts of, say, a child receiving a vaccination and then developing autism three days later. Put together 10 such stories and (for many people) the case is proven.

Of course, given tens of millions of young children and hundreds of millions of vaccination events, it would be extraordinary if there were NOT thousands if incidents where a child received a vaccination and then developed autism within a week or two. Unfortunately, most people don't understand statistics.

uh what? Can you link to one case where a vaccine caused autism?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
136
I read in another article on the study done and it's more a matter of motivated reasoning. People become less prone to spout myths if you show them the facts, but they'll simply move the goal posts and become more entrenched in their existing position.

P&N is a good example of this more generally, haha.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,809
3,089
136
fun fact: if you put 40k people together for 1 day, one will die.

if you inject millions of people with *anything*, some will have a adverse reaction to it.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,561
206
106
I read in another article on the study done and it's more a matter of motivated reasoning. People become less prone to spout myths if you show them the facts, but they'll simply move the goal posts and become more entrenched in their existing position.

Interesting, it is always hard to change sides, maybe that is why politically i refuse to fully embrace one party.

fun fact: if you put 40k people together for 1 day, one will die.

if you inject millions of people with *anything*, some will have a adverse reaction to it.

Remember those emails about how many people who met Bill Clinton would die. Yet i had to imagine our Presidents meet so many people that there was nothing fishy going on.
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
2
41
So that father who's son died from the shots was a irrational hippie?



---- Oh its ok sir! Your son is just now a statistic. A number.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So that father who's son died from the shots was a irrational hippie?



---- Oh its ok sir! Your son is just now a statistic. A number.

Do you have an article for that? I have been searching and I cant find anything.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
So that father who's son died from the shots was a irrational hippie?



---- Oh its ok sir! Your son is just now a statistic. A number.

So the father should avoid the risk of a vaccination and in turn expose his next child to a far, far higher risk from contracting diseases with multiple orders of magnitude higher fatality rates than vaccinations. Good plan.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
My daughter was born severely premature(13 weeks - 1 pound 4.2 ounces at birth) and thus had a immunodeficiency for the first year of her life. She would probably do fine with the common cold, but anything else could have had dire consequences. Needless to say, we kept her somewhat secluded that first year... Hand sanitizer, masks were the norm.

These mother fucker anti vaccine assholes elevate that risk to kids like my daughter. If she had gotten infected with a preventable disease and died, I'd be going serial killer on every one of those fuckers I could find.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Anti-vax people can't even give a plausible theory why vaccines would cause autism, so how would you "prove" it to them they don't? You're talking folks who have completely abandoned consideration of the scientific method in favor of feelings-based crackpot theories - "I don't think it's safe for babies to receive multiple vaccines at once" kinda stuff. You might as well have scientists try to disprove that diapers cause autism, or bad karma, or GMO food.

You can get autoimmune disorders from vaccines OR the disease itself. There is evidence that autism is an autoimmune disorder for some people.

I'm not saying the anti-vax people are right, because they likely aren't (for example MMR is one of the safer vaccines, IMO, where as some of them are concoctions of 15 different strains, etc.). But I've always wondered what the upper limit on the immune system is for the number of antigens it can detect before it goes haywire and self-attacks. Or maybe its that people are carrying the same antigen pattern in some brain protein that just so happens to be one targeted in one of the vaccines via bad luck.

Anyway long story short, it would seem autoimmune disorders is the price you pay for vaccination. I don't think its "wheeee lets give as many as we can as early as we can with no consequences!" because autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing in civilized countries.

The National Institutes of Health (NIH estimates up to 23.5* million Americans suffer from autoimmune disease and that the prevalence is rising. We at AARDA say that 50 million* Americans suffer from autoimmune disease. Why the difference? The NIH numbers only include 24 diseases for which good epidemiology studies were available.
http://www.aarda.org/autoimmune-information/autoimmune-statistics/
We're talking like 10-20% of the population.

Rhematic fever http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatic_fever

For those with untreated strep throat rhematic fever is like the textbook example of how your body can create an antibody that attacks your own cells.

Just sayin' type of deal. I think caution with vaccines is warranted. I agree with spreading them out.
 
Last edited:

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,259
9,331
136
You can get autoimmune disorders from vaccines OR the disease itself. There is evidence that autism is an autoimmune disorder for some people.

I'm not saying the anti-vax people are right, because they likely aren't. But I've always wondered what the upper limit on the immune system is for the number of antigens it can detect before it goes haywire and self-attacks. Or maybe its that people are carrying the same antigen pattern in some brain protein that just so happens to be one targeted in one of the vaccines via bad luck.

Anyway long story short, it would seem autoimmune disorders is the price you pay for vaccination. I don't think ite "wheeee lets give as many as we can as early as we can with no consequences!" because autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing in civilized countries.


http://www.aarda.org/autoimmune-information/autoimmune-statistics/
We're talking like 10-20% of the population.

Rhematic fever http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatic_fever

For those with untreated strep throat is like the textbook example of how your body can create an antibody in a panic to fight off infection that attacks your own cells.
I think the danger with vaccines are giving too many vaccines at once, such as for military people going overseas, or for people who are going to third world countries who are lacking on vaccinations.

By dumping a ton of antigens into your body at once, I can understand the immune system picking up antigens from peanuts or seafood and building antibodies to those, whereas normally it wouldn't.

Totally anecdotal, but an A&P professor I had once was never allergic to seafood, had a bunch of vaccines at once to travel, and soon after developed an allergic reaction to seafood. Perhaps somewhat like peanut allergies with infants. A sensitive immune system might start picking up different antigens and building antibodies to them.

My suggestion would be to stay up-to-date on vaccines and not take them in bulk whenever possible. But definitely take them.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
I think the danger with vaccines are giving too many vaccines at once, such as for military people going overseas, or for people who are going to third world countries who are lacking on vaccinations.

By dumping a ton of antigens into your body at once, I can understand the immune system picking up antigens from peanuts or seafood and building antibodies to those, whereas normally it wouldn't.

Totally anecdotal, but an A&P professor I had once was never allergic to seafood, had a bunch of vaccines at once to travel, and soon after developed an allergic reaction to seafood. Perhaps somewhat like peanut allergies with infants. A sensitive immune system might start picking up different antigens and building antibodies to them.

My suggestion would be to stay up-to-date on vaccines and not take them in bulk whenever possible. But definitely take them.

There is no medical evidence for not taking your vaccines on schedule as per CDC guidelines. There is no medical evidence that multiple vaccines at once cause more harm than individually given vaccines.

When this country was in the height of an ebola crisis, people were begging for a vaccine. We beg every day for a vaccine against AIDs, cancer, heart disease, etc and yet when we finally have perfectly good vaccines against diseases that are just as terrible and affect our children of all groups, people, rich spoiled people of all groups, suddenly have become quite stupid.

Its really very very frustrating.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
There is no medical evidence for not taking your vaccines on schedule as per CDC guidelines. There is no medical evidence that multiple vaccines at once cause more harm than individually given vaccines.

When this country was in the height of an ebola crisis, people were begging for a vaccine. We beg every day for a vaccine against AIDs, cancer, heart disease, etc and yet when we finally have perfectly good vaccines against diseases that are just as terrible and affect our children of all groups, people, rich spoiled people of all groups, suddenly have become quite stupid.

Its really very very frustrating.

Nope, if they had all the evidence they would know why autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing.

Its not just autism, but type I diabetes too.

Why in such a short period of time — 30 to 40 years or so — has the incidence increased, the age of onset decreased, and the threshold for risk been lowered for type 1 diabetes? We know that the cause of type 1 diabetes arises from contributions of both genetics and environmental factors. This alteration in the epidemiology of type 1 diabetes appears likely to arise from environmental factors because it is not possible for genetics to change in such a short period of time. We do not know, however, what specifically in the environment has changed.
Oh oh oh me me me!!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/

According to the ‘hygiene hypothesis’, the decreasing incidence of infections in western countries and more recently in developing countries is at the origin of the increasing incidence of both autoimmune and allergic diseases.
Hmm what if they are close and just missing the mark a little bit. What role do you think vaccines could be playing in this?
 
Last edited:

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,259
9,331
136
There is no medical evidence for not taking your vaccines on schedule as per CDC guidelines. There is no medical evidence that multiple vaccines at once cause more harm than individually given vaccines.

When this country was in the height of an ebola crisis, people were begging for a vaccine. We beg every day for a vaccine against AIDs, cancer, heart disease, etc and yet when we finally have perfectly good vaccines against diseases that are just as terrible and affect our children of all groups, people, rich spoiled people of all groups, suddenly have become quite stupid.

Its really very very frustrating.
I never said there was medical evidence for not taking vaccines on schedule as per CDC guidelines. In fact, I specifically pointed out taking a lot of vaccines all at once, and specifically used the word anecdotal when describing a story. And I get vaccinated more than 99% of the population, no problems so far...which is why I ended with staying on schedule with vaccinations, but avoiding getting a vaccine dump if you can. Because, why not just stay on schedule, or stay ahead of the game instead of waiting till the last minute for a bunch of vaccines?
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
Nope, if they had all the evidence they would know why autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing.

Its not just autism, but type I diabetes too.

Oh oh oh me me me!!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/

Hmm what if they are close and just missing the mark a little bit. What role do you think vaccines could be playing in this?

You know, in the last 200 years there has been a dramatic decline in the number of pirates in the world? Maybe pirates were protective against autoimmune disorders? There also has been a decline in the number of whales and tigers? Perhaps whales and tigers are protective against type 1 diabetes and as we kill them off we are creating an epidemic?

If you really want to talk about vaccines and autoimmune disorders, here's the truth. The difference in vaccination rates here and in most african countries is not that different. I think some of the lowest rates are like 70% in some the worst countries whilst here its in the very high 90s for the most part. However if you look at the rates of systemic lupus erythematosus in western africa, one of the most common and autoimmune disorders we see, you'll see that lupus simply does not happen in Africa. However, if you look at african americans (even the first set of kids of recent immigrants) here, you'll see that lupus is one of the most common autoimmune disorders to affect group. The difference in vaccination rates doesn't correlate at all with differences in lupus rates between the two regions.

Here's what you should know:
1) most autoimmune disorders have no clear cause. The pathophysiology of a lot of these disorders is well described, but the initial trigger (ie why 1 person gets it and another doesn't) has not been worked out. We know there are some strong genetic predispositions (ie if you mother had lupus or diabetes type 1, you have a much higher risk than the average person, if you're a twin and your twin has it, your risk is through the roof) and for some disorders there are a few known environmental triggers (coxsackie virus implicated as triggering type 1 DM through molecular mimicry, streptococcal infection with rheumatic fever, etc), but for the majority we really don't know why these diseases happen or why the rate is changing. I think some of the increase is how aggressively we test and screen for diabetes (before you just died. Now you die with a diagnosis. Before your introverted kid was just "funny", now he has autism). Some of it is probably environmental (we eat differently, we grow food differently, we are exposed to different types of air and water than say 70 years ago). No one really knows. But to jump off the deep end and say well maybe its vaccines with no credible evidence is asinine especially when vaccines have had a tremendous effect on a child's likelihood to see a healthy adulthood.

I will say there has been a bit of traction for the idea that we are too clean, that things your body should have learned to handle well it never gets to learn and so with all the idle time your immune system has to not have to fight anything, it eventually turns on itself in the form of allergic disorders, diabetes type 1, and etc. If you look at African countries, lupus is unheard off, but in african americans here its very very common. There are also rare reports of people being able to essentially cure their autoimmune disorders by given themselves chronic infections such as tapeworms and other parasites, against suggestive of perhaps an idle immune system that just needs something to fight. I personally however just think the rise is due to an increasingly technological medical community and rising standards on the degree of medical accuracy needed. If you find a 75 year old man today and ask him how his parents died, they often don't have a clue other than cases of clear accidental trauma. Today however if you die,you die with the correct diagnosis and everybody knows about it. But that's just my opinion.

I never said there was medical evidence for not taking vaccines on schedule as per CDC guidelines. In fact, I specifically pointed out taking a lot of vaccines all at once, and specifically used the word anecdotal when describing a story. And I get vaccinated more than 99% of the population, no problems so far...which is why I ended with staying on schedule with vaccinations, but avoiding getting a vaccine dump if you can. Because, why not just stay on schedule, or stay ahead of the game instead of waiting till the last minute for a bunch of vaccines?

There is no medical evidence suggesting that too many vaccines at once is bad but spreading them out is good. The current vaccine schedule for kids can call for 3 vaccines at once, sometimes more. A 65 year old man in this country can also receive 3 or 4 vaccines at once (shingles, pneumonia vaccine, a TdAP and a yearly flu vaccine may all end up falling on your 65th birthday). Whats important is to stay on schedule because the schedule is designed around expected declines in immune response to these vaccines. With adults its less important because you're talking 10 year windows for some of these vaccines, but with kids some of the initial windows are months, meaning if you delay a couple of extra months the kid may have no protection because his immunity has waned. There's a reason why the vaccine schedule for kids is so heavy: it takes multiple vaccines to create the long lasting immunization we need as adults, with each exposure creating a slightly longer window of immunization. However, those initial windows can be very short.
 
Last edited:

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
I'm going to walk around with a syringe full of a vaccine cocktail in my hand and jab unsuspecting kids whose parents are idiots, I mean anti vaxxers.

"What do you inject into my son? What did you inject into my baby? Waaaaaaaaa!"

And I'll say, "I just saved his life, lady" and walk away.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
But I've always wondered what the upper limit on the immune system is for the number of antigens it can detect before it goes haywire and self-attacks.

Considering the number of antigens in some vaccines is far less than the number of antigens seen in a single viral infection, your claim isn't even based on science or any sensible logic.
 
Last edited:

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
So that father who's son died from the shots was a irrational hippie?



---- Oh its ok sir! Your son is just now a statistic. A number.

Abso-fucking-lutely. He puts himself at more risk just getting in a car every day that he would from being vaccinated.... and yet he ignores that fear and continues to do it. And yet vaccination spurs an irrational fear because of people who make arguments, like you're attempting to.

It's funny - you're trying to play a 'but think of the children' card when that's exactly what the RATIONAL people are doing - thinking of the children and getting them vaccinated.
 
Last edited:

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
We have all but wiped some of these diseases and viruses off the face of the planet with vaccines. Who needs that?
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
When the weather warms up will our government again start importing Central American children by the thousands? Kids that haven't been vaccinated? If so, any discussion about this is moot.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
136
When the weather warms up will our government again start importing Central American children by the thousands? Kids that haven't been vaccinated? If so, any discussion about this is moot.

You're a moron. Mexico has a higher vaccination rate for measles, etc. than the U.S. does.