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Jimmy Carter weighs in on the opposition to Obama

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It's sad Jimmy Carter ignores the fact that America looked past race and elected Obama to the office, and only now raised the race card when people had the chance to evaluate facts against Obama's elegant speeches.

I respect Jimmy Carter quite a good deal because of his work after his presidency. But in this case, he is just plain wrong.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Carter should know how people from the south feel about the Confederate Flag. While some people who can't or won't get it will try pinning the racist tail on the donkey, it's too broad a brush to use realistically. I'll give people hell, but I can't do it for other than demonstrable cause, or at least reasonable and substantial grounds.

People from the South can feel about the Confederate flag any way they want, it's still a symbol of racism recognized worldwide and so people should not be surprised if they are viewed as racist for promoting it.

Nazi flags were more symbols of German pride than anything else but you don't see people flying them, do you? (no I'm not comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis, although the Confederacy was still a blight on the history of the US)

This is a fallacy... you need to go do your research. The North did NOT believe that Black people were equal to Whites... their economy simply didnt run on slave labor the way the South did. The war was NEVER about slavery, they freed the slaves to help win the war, not the other way around.

Having said that I do more often than not... find that when I meet a person who flies a confederate flag... they tend to be more likely to be racist. But the flag in and of itself is NOT a racist symbol.
 
Originally posted by: Doboji
Jimmy Carter has proven himself an idiot on a number of occasions now...

Yes, I'm surprised this latest open-mouth-insert-foot pronouncement has gotten so many on both sides so riled up. It does, however, make for some interesting reading.
 
Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: Doboji
Jimmy Carter has proven himself an idiot on a number of occasions now...

Yes, I'm surprised this latest open-mouth-insert-foot pronouncement has gotten so many on both sides so riled up. It does, however, make for some interesting reading.

By itself, it's nothing. When taken with other claims from house and senate members, media, etc., it's a pattern.
 
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Carter should know how people from the south feel about the Confederate Flag. While some people who can't or won't get it will try pinning the racist tail on the donkey, it's too broad a brush to use realistically. I'll give people hell, but I can't do it for other than demonstrable cause, or at least reasonable and substantial grounds.

People from the South can feel about the Confederate flag any way they want, it's still a symbol of racism recognized worldwide and so people should not be surprised if they are viewed as racist for promoting it.

Nazi flags were more symbols of German pride than anything else but you don't see people flying them, do you? (no I'm not comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis, although the Confederacy was still a blight on the history of the US)

This is a fallacy... you need to go do your research. The North did NOT believe that Black people were equal to Whites... their economy simply didnt run on slave labor the way the South did. The war was NEVER about slavery, they freed the slaves to help win the war, not the other way around.

Having said that I do more often than not... find that when I meet a person who flies a confederate flag... they tend to be more likely to be racist. But the flag in and of itself is NOT a racist symbol.

I never said that northerners believed blacks were equal to whites (as they were frequently quite racist), but the civil war was definitely about slavery. The idea that it wasn't about slavery experienced brief popularity about 70-100 years ago, but most historians now agree that while the civil war was about many things, it was about slavery more than any other.
 
Originally posted by: rchiu
It's sad Jimmy Carter ignores the fact that America looked past race and elected Obama to the office, and only now raised the race card when people had the chance to evaluate facts against Obama's elegant speeches.

I respect Jimmy Carter quite a good deal because of his work after his presidency. But in this case, he is just plain wrong.

Not all of America looked past race last election... In fact, dare I say, it's a lot of these same people who didn't.
 
I think the vast majority of opposition to Mr. Obama is because he's a Democrat/"liberal", and for most Republicans/"conservatives" that means saying no before even hearing the proposal.

Mr. Carter has been making odd/erratic statements for some years now. It's sort of embarassing to watch.
 
For your consideration...

It is typical when democratic presidents are in power, for far right wing fringe groups to emerge.
JFK had the JOHN BURCH SOCIETY rise out of the muck, this anti liberal group, during the 1960's.
FDR has his opponents.
The 1950's we had the anti commie movement with the Senator Joseph McCarthy hearings.

Now, fast forward to 2009 and we see tea parties and birthers.

While there is some truth in Carters opinion, the majority of American's "DID" elect a black man, after all.
Race issues will be around until the end of time. That will never change. Civil rights laws can not cure that.
The depth and extent of race as the motivator will become evident. Those people/groups will give themselves away.

During the KKK era, while the klan was violently against minorities, they still hid their identity in shame by wearing hoods. As blowhard as they were, the klan members did not want anyone to know who they were under those hoods.

Now, their hoods have been replaced by blatant denial, still... easily seen through.
In any case, I think those groups/individuals are still a small small minority.
They have always been around, they always will be.

The tea party marchers on Washington the last week were at best 70 thousand total.
Hardly enough to swing an election.
At any one given time, Id suspect you could find 70 thousand people against any issue.
Hell... there are probably 70 thousand that still believe the earth if actually flat.

Carter had a point to make, but he forgets America "did" elect Obama by a healthy majority.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Carter should know how people from the south feel about the Confederate Flag. While some people who can't or won't get it will try pinning the racist tail on the donkey, it's too broad a brush to use realistically. I'll give people hell, but I can't do it for other than demonstrable cause, or at least reasonable and substantial grounds.

People from the South can feel about the Confederate flag any way they want, it's still a symbol of racism recognized worldwide and so people should not be surprised if they are viewed as racist for promoting it.

Nazi flags were more symbols of German pride than anything else but you don't see people flying them, do you? (no I'm not comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis, although the Confederacy was still a blight on the history of the US)

This is a fallacy... you need to go do your research. The North did NOT believe that Black people were equal to Whites... their economy simply didnt run on slave labor the way the South did. The war was NEVER about slavery, they freed the slaves to help win the war, not the other way around.

Having said that I do more often than not... find that when I meet a person who flies a confederate flag... they tend to be more likely to be racist. But the flag in and of itself is NOT a racist symbol.

I never said that northerners believed blacks were equal to whites (as they were frequently quite racist), but the civil war was definitely about slavery. The idea that it wasn't about slavery experienced brief popularity about 70-100 years ago, but most historians now agree that while the civil war was about many things, it was about slavery more than any other.

Your missing the point... it was about economics. The entire economy of the South revolved around the Slave labor and Southern power revolved around this economic strength. The overwhelming majority of people who were looking to end slavery in that century were interested because of it's economic impact NOT because they deemed it racist.

 
Originally posted by: yllus
I think the vast majority of opposition to Mr. Obama is because he's a Democrat/"liberal", and for most Republicans/"conservatives" that means saying no before even hearing the proposal.

Mr. Carter has been making odd/erratic statements for some years now. It's sort of embarassing to watch.

I understand he used to be a pretty intelligent powerful man with strong morals... but that was before my time.
 
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: yllus
I think the vast majority of opposition to Mr. Obama is because he's a Democrat/"liberal", and for most Republicans/"conservatives" that means saying no before even hearing the proposal.

Mr. Carter has been making odd/erratic statements for some years now. It's sort of embarassing to watch.

I understand he used to be a pretty intelligent powerful man with strong morals... but that was before my time.

I've seen some of his speeches about the law on film - he is/was a brilliant speaker, and apparently recited pages and pages of legal text directly from memory. Sure as hell wasn't a guy you wanted to face off against in the courtroom back in the day.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The most fantastic quality of bigotry is that it is totally blind. You will never see a bigot that realizes he is one. A bigot's core and unexamined belief is that he is right. Everything a bigot thinks and sees is predicated on that. He sees the world though colored lenses and knows not he is wearing them. It is an eye that can't see itself.

Another side of the coin is that being a bigot is so horrid, that being called one makes it true. As Dreyfus found out stigmas are all that's needed.

I don't know what you are refering to here but perhaps it was covered in my last post above.

Sometimes people are from a group which has a stigma attached to it. Blacks are criminals, Hispanics lazy, Southerners racist.

Sometimes the stereotypes are true with particular individuals, however wouldn't it be best if people who were criminals, those who are lazy, and those who are racist be labeled for their actions rather than their group?

It depends on what you mean by label. A criminal is just a history of pathology. It's not the fault of the criminal he is a criminal. He had to be to survive. It's no different the foot binding. Such folk have small feet.

Self hate requires that people blame. There is a need to punish and we can't punish the innocent, now can we.
 
Originally posted by: sportage
For your consideration...

It is typical when democratic presidents are in power, for far right wing fringe groups to emerge.
JFK had the JOHN BURCH SOCIETY rise out of the muck, this anti liberal group, during the 1960's.
FDR has his opponents.
The 1950's we had the anti commie movement with the Senator Joseph McCarthy hearings.

Now, fast forward to 2009 and we see tea parties and birthers.

While there is some truth in Carters opinion, the majority of American's "DID" elect a black man, after all.
Race issues will be around until the end of time. That will never change. Civil rights laws can not cure that.
The depth and extent of race as the motivator will become evident. Those people/groups will give themselves away.

During the KKK era, while the klan was violently against minorities, they still hid their identity in shame by wearing hoods. As blowhard as they were, the klan members did not want anyone to know who they were under those hoods.

Now, their hoods have been replaced by blatant denial, still... easily seen through.
In any case, I think those groups/individuals are still a small small minority.
They have always been around, they always will be.

The tea party marchers on Washington the last week were at best 70 thousand total.
Hardly enough to swing an election.
At any one given time, Id suspect you could find 70 thousand people against any issue.
Hell... there are probably 70 thousand that still believe the earth if actually flat.

Carter had a point to make, but he forgets America "did" elect Obama by a healthy majority.

So basically you're calling those that oppose Obama racists? Please keep it up, please, please, please, keep it up. Keep calling those that don't like his policies and actions racists. Please, please keep doing this.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: sportage
For your consideration...

It is typical when democratic presidents are in power, for far right wing fringe groups to emerge.
JFK had the JOHN BURCH SOCIETY rise out of the muck, this anti liberal group, during the 1960's.
FDR has his opponents.
The 1950's we had the anti commie movement with the Senator Joseph McCarthy hearings.

Now, fast forward to 2009 and we see tea parties and birthers.

While there is some truth in Carters opinion, the majority of American's "DID" elect a black man, after all.
Race issues will be around until the end of time. That will never change. Civil rights laws can not cure that.
The depth and extent of race as the motivator will become evident. Those people/groups will give themselves away.

During the KKK era, while the klan was violently against minorities, they still hid their identity in shame by wearing hoods. As blowhard as they were, the klan members did not want anyone to know who they were under those hoods.

Now, their hoods have been replaced by blatant denial, still... easily seen through.
In any case, I think those groups/individuals are still a small small minority.
They have always been around, they always will be.

The tea party marchers on Washington the last week were at best 70 thousand total.
Hardly enough to swing an election.
At any one given time, Id suspect you could find 70 thousand people against any issue.
Hell... there are probably 70 thousand that still believe the earth if actually flat.

Carter had a point to make, but he forgets America "did" elect Obama by a healthy majority.

So basically you're calling those that oppose Obama racists? Please keep it up, please, please, please, keep it up. Keep calling those that don't like his policies and actions racists. Please, please keep doing this.

Don't get your hopes up. He's going to win again in 2012.
 
Originally posted by: yllus


Don't get your hopes up. He's going to win again in 2012.

meh, this is only personal experience from REAL people I talk to face to face everyday. They are so fed up with being called a racist because they disagree with the pres current direction. They supported Obama and having a very real awakening.

So by all mean, please keep calling everybody a racist. Please, please keep doing it.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: yllus


Don't get your hopes up. He's going to win again in 2012.

meh, this is only personal experience from REAL people I talk to face to face everyday. They are so fed up with being called a racist because they disagree with the pres current direction. They supported Obama and having a very real awakening.

So by all mean, please keep calling everybody a racist. Please, please keep doing it.

I just wish we could have an intelligent conversation about policy..

On the right we have people knee-jerk screaming no to anything and everything the president proposes... and on the left we have people screaming racism at anyone who disagrees with what the president proposes.

At some point can we actually have a civil conversation and get something done? I think it's pretty clear MOST people think our healthcare system is screwed up... so it would be nice if people stopped poking each other in the eye and actually tried to make some compromises.
 
so if Hillary R Clinton had been elected, all the men that disagree with the same/similar liberal policies that she would be putting forth would all be sexists? for real?
what would the women that disagreed with HRC be called?
 
IF Person 'A' would oppose a President's policy if he (the President) were 'White' and Person 'A' IS a racist would the fact that the President is 'Black' indicate that Person 'A' opposes the Black President's policy because he (Person 'A') is a racist?

How can an outsider from the mind of Person 'A' know either way? How can Person 'A' know for sure? I don't think anyone can make that call with any certainty. I think one can surmise that to be the case but to do so they'd have to include some reason that Person 'A' has otherwise supported the Policy he now finds distasteful.

It would seem to me.

Carter was know for his honesty in office (Playboy magazine) and after his term he spoke his mind. I think this utterance is a bit too far off the mark.
 
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Title: Jimmy Carter weighs in on the opposition to Obama

Those who smelt it...

Doesn't that just about sum it up? Jimmy Carter is a racist by yelling racist.
 
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so if Hillary R Clinton had been elected, all the men that disagree with the same/similar liberal policies that she would be putting forth would all be sexists? for real?
what would the women that disagreed with HRC be called?

Supporters for the repeal of the 19th Amendment?
 
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Title: Jimmy Carter weighs in on the opposition to Obama

Those who smelt it...

Doesn't that just about sum it up? Jimmy Carter is a racist by yelling racist.

Nah, he's not being a racist. He's simply using his forum as a former President to utter statements without including a foundation to support them. IOW, he's being foolish. imo

 
The people here - like Hyabusa, I read the first few posts - who are claimming Carter is wrong, don't understand how racism works (and that they might be affected by it).

They should learn the term 'dog whistle politics'.

There's a reason why racial stereotypes/caricatures/'jokes' hve always had such strong appeal to people who often say they 'are not racist'.

Racism comes largely from the enjoyment of putting another group down. It's a weakness.

When any 'innocent' comment is made to distinguish the 'other group' from yours, that's enough to let you enjoy that feeling - so it's why it's o important to have for so long simply made references to blacks liking to eat fried chicken or watermelon. They can always rationalize it with 'so what? They like to eat a food, how is that an attack? I like steak and pears, is thar 'racist' to say about me?'

But there is a context that rationalization ignores that the reason why they want to make such a big point of blacks eating a watermelon - to thepoint that simply a cartoon with an image of it is a cliche - is because it serves the purpose of lettingt the racist put the 'other group' in a box. It's actually better that it NOT be a rationally meaningful point - it's the emotional response, the 'there THOSE PEOPLE are response - that they want to enjoy.

But racists are not going to understand that usually; they're just going to argue that, even while they are indulging in it, 'it's just a joke' or some other such denial.

'Dog whistle' politics is similar, it's saying things that aren't on their face 'racist' rationally, they're not saying 'blacks are an inferior race', but are rather the sort of 'message' that the racists can hear like dogs can hear something that is inaduble to people, that gets a response.

In short, I don't think most racists are able to understand their own racism, including how it relates to President Obama.

With hours to discuss it, I suspect I might get one to understand it better, but it takes an education for them to understand their own racism.

It doesn't help that their defense has some truth to it - it's not that they oppose Obama only for his race - their opposition is legitimately based on 'issues'.

It's how it's enhanced by racism that they don't understand. How the level of disrespect is increased, the level of anger felt is increased.

It's why you might see such an increased interest in things like 'tea bag' protests, because these people have to vent the racist anger, even if they don't know why they're so much more upset than when they saw a white person with policies they disagreed with. They understand 'raciism is wrong' and think they're not racist, even while they have a racist reaction of increased anger because Obama is half black that they just assume is all about his policies.

It's sort of like they really don't like seeing his race in the White House, and the emotion they have they just decide is all about their being a more passionate 'conservative'.

Carter understands racism better, and his comments lead the racist horses to the water, to the truth, but they won't drink much.

If you want to be honest and test yourself a bit, see how you react emotionally to things. If you see a crime story of a black hurting a white, do you feel more emotion than other times? If you see a mixed race couple, do you feel a negative feeling towards it even if you don't rationally condemn it? If you think of a black person being your doctor, being your politician, being yiour boss, do you have a bit of a feeling of negative reaction?

That's the racism you are unaware of, that you don't think you have.

I'm not talking about actually saying 'I don't want to have a black doctor - that's a much stronger form of racism when you actually rationally defend it. I'm talking about you saying you would be fine with a black doctor - but having a 'bad feeling' about it that you pretend isn't there, even while you look for an excuse to get another doctor that has nothing to do with race as a reason. That's modern racism.

And it's very exploitable by politicians who know how to appeal to your emotion,s and give you all kinds of cover for them, SAYING that they and you are against racism with words - but letting you vent the racist emotion as passionate opposition, finding phrases that are 'respectable' to hide it behind - just as racists in the South often used 'states' rights' as a 'respectable constitutional opinion' to hide their racism behind.

When you would see 'Leave it to Beaver' families ordinary housewives, out in screamnig frothing mobs facing down federal marshalls to oppose a black person going to a schiool with signs about 'states' rights', that was racism. They didn't understand, usually, why they were so passionate about states' rights'. Watching them try to give the reason was just watching them parrot the 'talking points'. That's the poison of racism.

When racism was more acceptable, you had more 'honest' expressions of it, such as when Lincoln would assure audicences that no one was more opposed to racial equality than him.

But as the view that equality is the right policy took hold, but people still had racist feelings, you saw this more tortured expression of racism.

It's why for a century you had things like 'housing covenants' being the norm that a house could not be sold to blacks in a white neighborhood, among people who 'weren't racist'.

And you have a lot of emotion aimed at Barack Obama under the cover of opposing his 'liberal' policies that it enhanced by racist feelings, in the view of many.

This is why terms like 'play th race card' are so popular, because they further provide 'cover' for people with racist feelings, to ignore them by turning the attack on those who point out the racism, by dismissing them as the people who are wrong, just 'playing politics', the 'real racists'. It's why it's so popular to oppose 'reverse racism' in affirmative action, because it lets them off the hook of dealing with the facts and injustice of unfair legacies from the policies of racism, to simply attack the proponents.

The right-wing talk show host types are expert at playing these people like a fiddle, knowing to *never* be explicitly racist, which would get them condemned by their listeners the same way the KKK is 'off limites' to respectable politics - but instead use 'dog whistle' messages to let the people vent racist emotion under a cover of it being about an issue.

People have posted there's 'no proof', and that's sort of true. This is hard to 'prove'. Each person has to look at it and reach their own conclusion about their own feelings.

But here's one suggestion to notice the racism.

Remember how around the election there was a period of media messages about the nation being 'proud' to elect a half-black person in that it showed the values of America to the world, where many other nations have clear racism. If we still saw Republicans including some messages about how they are proud of that even while they criticize Obama on issues, then I'd think the racism probably isn't there - it's not very compatble for people who feel racist reactions to also feel pride in having a half-black president.

But you don't hear a *peep* from the right about any such pride - and I think that's a bit of a suggestion how they're feeling.

It's a little like in a marriage, when a spouse feels a loss of attraction to their partner, but doesn't say that, because of the hassle it would cause - but the comments praising their attractiveness tend to stop. That's what you so often here in marital conflict - how the partner has 'stopped telling them they're sexy' - which didn't say anything, but is actually an indication of the problem they don't want to say. That's a bit like racism - don't say it but it's a problem.

And it does come out in real votes and policies, as people vote those feelings and make exucses why, not even understanding why they're doing it.

Just as the spouse might start working longer hours to avoid the tension from being at home not being physically intimate - and think they're just feeling more work ambition.

But this real problem isn't well suited to political discussion, where you judge the policies people put in words, and they don't put racism in words.

What might help is for people to get a better understanding of how racism works, whether their own or others'. The rational view can override the racist emotion.

That's partly how Obama got elected - people not letting any racist feeling change their vote on the issues - but many on the right now feel free to indulge the emotion.

And they're egged on in it by the media figures who know the game. YOU'RE not racist, those black leaders are the racists.

As I've said many times, there is some truth to some of these things; a reaction that's different to a black man walking down the street is a combination of both racism and a rational based fear that the facts are there's a higher chance of a problem. Sometimes, black people are racist. But what's missing is an appreciation of the part that is racism.

And with President Obama, racism encourages passionate, rushed, less than rational opposition to his policies. And that enhancmnent to opposition is what Carter said.
 
Wonder if he had to ask Amy before arriving at this conclusion.

Still doesn't top Jimmy Carter's:

  • brother Billy peeing on runway in front of press

    sighting and fascination with UFOs

    report that he was attacked by a killer rabbit
Billy Beer, it does a body good.


 
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