Jimmy Carter: "Give Hamas a chance"

NuclearNed

Raconteur
May 18, 2001
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my first P&N post...

CNN


Hamas is recognized by many (most?) governments as a terrorist organization. Why should anyone give them a second chance? They have a proven track record of violence and intimidation. Carter thinks they are going to change their tactics just because they now have a mandate? I would even argue that their mandate gives them the authority to "stay the course."

Jimmy Carter is a tool and loves to continuously remind people of that fact.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
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We could give them a chance. Although any chance of them turning away from violence is more than likely slim to none.
 

spherrod

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
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www.steveherrod.com
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
We could give them a chance. Although any chance of them turning away from violence is more than likely slim to none.

(my first P&N post too!) I think you have to give them a chance, as they have been democratically elected by the people of Palestine. The region needs help, and maybe Hamas can be convinced that now is the time to pursue their means peacefully by engaging with the international and Israeli communities. The alternative is far worse IMO if you attempt to exclude them straight away.

Also, the IRA (Sinn Fein) had a proven track record of intimidation and violence but now seem firmly engaged in a democratic peace process
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
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Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.

What money is it that Israel has frozen? Also has Hamas rejected their stance on the destruction of Israel?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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It's rather hard to claim to want to plant democracies in the ME and immediately punish a people because they picked who you didn't like.

I think Carter is right for that reason. If Hamas continues to be an active threat, then that's one thing. Do I believe they will change? Not really, but there have been times when some quite nasty people have come about when faced with the task of governance.

You could always look at "Giving Hamas a chance" as give them enough rope.

Besides, history has shown how an abused people react. Look at Germany after WWI which was directly responsible for WWII. It's not that the Palestinians have that capability, but they have long memories. Even now it may be possible to rescue the situation, but if you start starving kids, forget it.
 

jlmadyson

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Aug 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Hey, Dean, welcome to P&N! :)

Thanks! But now I'm going back to the relative safety of OT...

You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave :music:
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
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Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.

What money is it that Israel has frozen? Also has Hamas rejected their stance on the destruction of Israel?

The transfer of funds to the new govt.

53 million which will be used to pay for 100,000+ govt. employees.
60,000 of them security police

Israel has no right to freeze any funds, yet they do.
Just like they like to control when people can leave their homes, etc.

If they love Palestine so much that they want to control them they should just join the two countries together.. they are part of the same land. Israel = country on a land called Palestine.
 

slash196

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2004
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It's not like we have a choice. They're a democratically elected government, like it or not we HAVE to deal with them.
 

chcarnage

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.

What money is it that Israel has frozen? Also has Hamas rejected their stance on the destruction of Israel?

It's tax money Israel collects for Palestine (maybe VAT). I've heard in the radio that it's about 53 million Swiss Francs if I remember correcty. That would be ca. 41 mil. USD. The freezing is expected to affect about a third of all Palestinian households.

Edit: It's $51 mil. according to my newspaper.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
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Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Hey, Dean, welcome to P&N! :)

Thanks! But now I'm going back to the relative safety of OT...

You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave :music:

You'll be back.....they always come back. Once smitten, twice bitten :D

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,313
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Poor Israel. They are in a bind. They are so so itching to exterminate the Palestinians but that have that Holocaust albatross around their necks.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Poor Israel. They are in a bind. They are so so itching to exterminate the Palestinians but that have that Holocaust albatross around their necks.

Would extermination be acceptable to you? Nice.....

 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,442
27
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Okay, playing devil's advocate, imagine for a moment that perhaps the Israeli government is thinking, "Do we really want to just hand over that much cash to an organization that has, in the past, supported terrorism AND to this day advocates the complete annihilation of our country and people??"

Right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral.......if you think of it that way, it's a bit tougher to blame Israel for doing what they've done, at least in that instance. I'd do the same in their shoes, at least until I was 110% sure the money wasn't going to be used for human bombs, and was actually going to go to where it's supposed to go.


On another note, we can't really blame Jimmy Carter for being what he is.......ever since he got Israel to agree not to beat up Egypt anymore, and Egypt to agree not to attack (and be beat up by) Israel anymore, back during his presidency, old Jimmy has thought that there was a chance for true peace in the middle east, irregardless of decades of proof to the contrary. Even in this thread I've seen the hint that the Palestinians will NEVER seek true peace with the Israelis, and (like most of the middle eastern countries) would prefer to see the jewish state eradicated from the face of the earth!

Yeah, I'd really wanna trust people like that! :roll:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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As soon as they get rid of their platform of destroying israel and suicide bombing we can give them their 8th chance.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.

What money is it that Israel has frozen? Also has Hamas rejected their stance on the destruction of Israel?

The transfer of funds to the new govt.

53 million which will be used to pay for 100,000+ govt. employees.
60,000 of them security police

Israel has no right to freeze any funds, yet they do.
Just like they like to control when people can leave their homes, etc.

If they love Palestine so much that they want to control them they should just join the two countries together.. they are part of the same land. Israel = country on a land called Palestine.

Hamas's position is absurd. One one hand they want Israel to cease to exist and on the other hand they want Israel to pay them money. How can you expect payment from someone who does not exist in your opinion. If I were in Israels position I would say screw you.


Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It's rather hard to claim to want to plant democracies in the ME and immediately punish a people because they picked who you didn't like.

I think Carter is right for that reason. If Hamas continues to be an active threat, then that's one thing. Do I believe they will change? Not really, but there have been times when some quite nasty people have come about when faced with the task of governance.

You could always look at "Giving Hamas a chance" as give them enough rope.

Besides, history has shown how an abused people react. Look at Germany after WWI which was directly responsible for WWII. It's not that the Palestinians have that capability, but they have long memories. Even now it may be possible to rescue the situation, but if you start starving kids, forget it.

I agree. Hamas should be given a limited time to prove that they are capable of being part of the international community. If doing so requires them to renounce violence and recognize Israel then they should be prepared to do that. The alternative scenario is not pretty. More violence and more retributions and I do believe that ultimately the Palestinians will pay a higher price than anyone else.

From what I've read in the news Hamas has done a better job of looking after people at grass root level. So it does appear that they can do good.



 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
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0
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
We could give them a chance. Although any chance of them turning away from violence is more than likely slim to none.

I think they've been placed in a position where they will have to change. The election results are probably the best outcome we could have hoped for. Paradoxical, perhaps.
I don't think we need Jimmy Carter telling us to "give them a chance" though. As smart as he is, he should learn to keep his mouth shut sometimes, IMO.
 

Trente

Golden Member
Apr 19, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Poor Israel. They are in a bind. They are so so itching to exterminate the Palestinians but that have that Holocaust albatross around their necks.

I've had enough of you! randomly clicking on threads, posting those witty responses of yours trying to impress everyone with your insight, while contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion. :thumbsdown:
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel has frozen palestine's money.

This means that the palestinians will not get their paycheck.

Israel has no right to freeze any country's money, yet they do.

These are workers who have been working for the govt. since before Hamas was even elected.

So we are not giving them a chance and as a result hurting the population.
Wonderful.

What money is it that Israel has frozen? Also has Hamas rejected their stance on the destruction of Israel?

The transfer of funds to the new govt.

53 million which will be used to pay for 100,000+ govt. employees.
60,000 of them security police

Israel has no right to freeze any funds, yet they do.
Just like they like to control when people can leave their homes, etc.

If they love Palestine so much that they want to control them they should just join the two countries together.. they are part of the same land. Israel = country on a land called Palestine.

Hamas's position is absurd. One one hand they want Israel to cease to exist and on the other hand they want Israel to pay them money. How can you expect payment from someone who does not exist in your opinion. If I were in Israels position I would say screw you.


Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It's rather hard to claim to want to plant democracies in the ME and immediately punish a people because they picked who you didn't like.

I think Carter is right for that reason. If Hamas continues to be an active threat, then that's one thing. Do I believe they will change? Not really, but there have been times when some quite nasty people have come about when faced with the task of governance.

You could always look at "Giving Hamas a chance" as give them enough rope.

Besides, history has shown how an abused people react. Look at Germany after WWI which was directly responsible for WWII. It's not that the Palestinians have that capability, but they have long memories. Even now it may be possible to rescue the situation, but if you start starving kids, forget it.

I agree. Hamas should be given a limited time to prove that they are capable of being part of the international community. If doing so requires them to renounce violence and recognize Israel then they should be prepared to do that. The alternative scenario is not pretty. More violence and more retributions and I do believe that ultimately the Palestinians will pay a higher price than anyone else.

From what I've read in the news Hamas has done a better job of looking after people at grass root level. So it does appear that they can do good.

It is their money.

Israel cannot steal their money.

Israel controls Palestine. Maybe that is why Palestinians hate Israel so much?

Another country controls their country that doesn't even exist yet.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Jumping in on this thread rather late, but I do believe Carter is right---Hamas is duly elected and does deserve a chance.-----but its all based on this idea that we can take a diverse population and talk about them like they were a single person----which is nonsence.

But the Palestinian people have become second class citizens in the land of their birth----all voices of moderation have been driven out leaving the extreme ends of the political spectrum to have it out. Israel has the upper hand militarily but is less numerous in population-----and keeps its Palistinian population in check by military and economic means.-----let one Palistinian engage in terrorist activities and it becomes the shared guilt of the entire Palistinian population.----which is exactly what Israel uses to justify keeping a vast population in virtual subigation.

And Hamas is similarly two faced---it has long delivered social services when no one else did but also has a terrorist wing. And now is in charge when the long denied idea of a Palistinian State has increased traction--------Israel may tolerate a Palistinian State but would be very uncomfortable with a Palistinian State with a GNP of more than a nickle. And someday Isael must confront the right to return and the fact they must share a limited land with the Palistinian people.------right now the Israelie propaganda dominates in the USA but not elsewhere. Nor have their fellow Arabs come to
the aid of the Palistinians-----preferring them in their proper role of being a shining example to the people of other lands----you think you have it bad here--look at those smucks.

I do believe in Israels right to exist-----but until Israel starts to be a shining example of anything but Nazi tactics I believe its time for the rest of the world to start to put more pressure on Israel to be more democratic and starting to embrace a co-equal Palistinian State---with the election of Hamas being somewhat of a wakeup call--------until both sides can embrace a culture of sharing neither side will have peace.----or security.------and for those killed by terrorist bombs--what difference does it make if this bomb came from a lone nut or from the blessing of elected leaders -----its still the result of the extremes in society dominating when the voice of moderation is driven out.-----even a hardliner like Sharon came to realise that before a stroke felled him.