Question Jen Sung makes questionable decision? [RUMOR] NVidia tries to disable GPU mining?

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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126

So now, not only is Nvidia's chairman selling GPUs that can be used for Compute (*formerly called GPGPU - "General Purpose"), he's rum0ored to be attempting to effectively regulate WHAT PROGRAMS are ALLOWED to be run on the GPUs that they mfg?

Imaging if Intel decided to decree, that their CPUs, could no longer be used for searching for prime numbers.

This whole idea is a slippery slope that I am NOT willing to go down.

And to think, this is all just an (alleged) stupid band-aid, over their mfg and supply-chain issues.

If Nvidia could effectively supply all of their GPU markets with product, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit: If this rumor turns out to be true, expect class-action lawsuits against NVidia, much like what happened to Sony with the PS3 losing functionality (running Linux) after people purchased them.

Now, ALL NVIDIA RETAILERS will be forced to post a prominent disclaimer of the software that is NOT ALLOWED to be run on these GPUs, or they will get sued as well.

Update:
NVidia to phase out all existing Ampere PCI device-ids, phase in EtH mining "block" across ALL new Ampere line-up!
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126
There is no way for it to work, people who cheer about this alleged decision without caring for the implications are also apparently missing key information about what mining is: running a mathematical algorithm which can be unilaterally changed by the coin issuing "authority" at any point in time.

Today it runs on GPUs... tomorrow it may be changed to something which drastically favors CPUs and/or large amounts of RAM. See where this is going? ( Oh Sh!t indeed... )
Methinks that the complainers haven't studied a whit of computer science. The whole IDEA of a whole class of "not allowed" programs running general-purpose code on general-purpose processing systems, is entirely anti-thetical to the Turing-complete machine model.

I mean, isn't that how Skynet got started, effectively?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126
as if society as a whole cared that you can't purchase a Video Card FOR PLAYING GAMES because of those pesky miners.
Gamers make "getting a hold of the NEWEST video card, at affordable prices" seem like it's a basic right such as sleeping and breathing. Little do they understand the REAL WORLD, once they step outside their video game world and move out of their basements. Once you have to start buying your own hardware, and paying for your own food, they might realize what an asset Crypto-mining can be to their budget (+++$$$).
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126
I mean, ultimately, this is a business decision by NVidia, if they choose to segregate the market now, after supplying "gaming" GPUs that are also "GPGPU-capable" with CUDA support for so long, if they now separate the two, and making "gaming-ONLY" cards, and "CUDA-capable" cards as SEPARATE product lines, well, that may hurt NVidia financially, that's all I'm saying, and may cause them to be sued by two separate groups, owners of previously-CUDA-capable gaming GPUs (existing NVidia card owners, may also be miners), AND shareholders, for finding out HOW MUCH of NVidia's market was actually "miners", if they segregate the two.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,003
136
I use a multipurpose computer for gaming because:

- I want the freedom to use whatever control method I want, steering wheels, hotas, a myriad brands of mice and keyboards
- I want the freedom to use whatever VR headset I facny
- I want the freedom to not be forced to pay subscriptions, for online gaming support

What if Nvidia decides they don't want you to be able to do any of those things with their GPUs? It's rather odd to extol the virtues of a PC as including so many freedoms in a thread about a company taking freedoms away.

You really ought to examine exactly what it is you think you're arguing for or against. It seems as though there are freedoms you like and freedoms you don't. Your freedom may not be as free as you think.

The fact alone that you screwed 24 guys out of their entertainment, for your own benefit, speaks volumes I believe.

Here's the real motivation behind your argument and a terrible sense of entitlement. Did the person who was willing to pay $2,000,000 for beach front property screw me out of owning a beach house, or were they just willing to pay more for an asset because they value it more than I do?

Did you stop to consider that the 24 guys who wanted a high end GPU screwed scores of others out of a chance at a GPU because they value a high-end GPU more than a mid-range product and Nvidia can make more of a profit selling to them as opposed to making a larger number of mid-range or low end cards that would enable an even greater number of people to be entertained?

You only care about freedoms or people
getting screwed over when it benefits you or doesn't frame you as being the bad guy. If you want to tell people to go look in the mirror you ought to do so yourself. The type of "rules for thee, but not for me" folk are worse than anything else because they'll always find a way to justify their own moral hypocrisy.

Maybe stop and think about this and whether you actually value those things or you only really care about them when they benefit you and are quick to discard those principles when they don't benefit you. If you only care about yourself, that's perfectly fine, but as the saying goes, "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,512
589
126
Post a pic of the rig with 24 5700XTs when you have it set up. :D

I used to mine but don't think it's worth the effort anymore, and can make way more working or investing/trading. If you got a card anyway for games, it may be worth mining to offset the cost, but to scale it you need hundreds of cards in a mining warehouse (preferably in China or Iran). Finding enough cards will take many months, and the ETH price may move against you in that time, so you're indirectly speculating on that anyway.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
6,896
5,833
136
And on the flip side, nVidia/AMD do not owe you the right to purchase cheap video cards.

Never said they did, you guys are the ones getting bent out of shape that Nvidia might consider miners a drain on their company. Nvidia is going to do whatever they think makes them the most money so this crying about them potentially locking miners out is some entitled BS.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
6,896
5,833
136
Gamers make "getting a hold of the NEWEST video card, at affordable prices" seem like it's a basic right such as sleeping and breathing. Little do they understand the REAL WORLD, once they step outside their video game world and move out of their basements. Once you have to start buying your own hardware, and paying for your own food, they might realize what an asset Crypto-mining can be to their budget (+++$$$).

I don't know why you think you're entitled to have a company hurt their own bottom lines for your benefit. Maybe you should try understanding the real world where Nvidia is out for themselves and not for you.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,003
136
Because a console can't run tens of thousands Win32 games like Windows can.

Well right up until Nvidia decides you can't run those programs either. The consoles already do exactly what you want Nvidia to do, which is restricting what can be run. Not such a good idea now is it?

The irony is every single "coin" measures its value in $USD. The only reason this ponzi scheme continues is because there are stupid people willing to pay real money for this fairy tale. Just like religion - once the collection plate dries up, it dies.

And if someone thinks the wealth gap is a problem now, imagine what happens if crypto actually catches on? How does a street beggar compete with a trustfund brat who has a mining rack of 3080s and has been hoarding coins since the scheme started?

Right now people without electricity and GPUs can still make money. How does one operate crypto without power and GPUs?

Crypto: "the solution to all the world's financial problems...as long as the real money keeps the power and GPUs flowing". Lulz.

What utter nonsense is this? The only reason the US dollar has value or can buy anything is because some has produced something worth buying. Some imagined future where everyone mines crypto currency is inane. Who's growing the food, processing it, shipping it to the stores? Are all those people working for free?

You write as though some trust fund kid whose wealth comes from their parents owning Bitcoin is worse than if it was because their parents had a lot of US dollars, British pounds, or any previous existing currency. What's changed here exactly? You even have it backwards because you seem to suggest anyone who could just get their hands on a mining rig could join this wealthy class, when historically this kind of social mobility hasn't existed and is only more prominent in industrialized societies.

Bitcoin itself has been through so many boom and bust cycles now that you really have to ask yourself why it's still around if it's just a Ponzi scheme. Shouldn't the bottom have dropped out long ago? Also, the miners aren't necessarily the people who own the actual Bitcoins. Think of them like the people who deal with processing the transactions (a bit like banks do with traditional currency), but that the minting of new currency is tied to that process which is what incentivizes them to do that work in the first place. Bitcoin is only valued as a currency because you can buy products using it. Same as any other currency, with the exception that government currency is also used to pay your taxes.

It's pretty clear that you have no understanding of how Bitcoin works or what makes it valuable and even your idea of how a larger economy would function because you could make the same inane arguments using stocks instead of Bitcoin and how they just enable a bunch of people to get rich while someone else starves on the street.

I don't even own any crypto currency and I've never mined any either, but good god is the amount of ignorance surrounding them utterly astounding. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please try to make it at least a little bit informed. If you want to know why Bitcoin is really so valuable it's because no government can seize it. Maybe that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but there are plenty of people who live in a country where that's a real worry. You can perhaps understand why they'd like to diversify their assets a bit and why Bitcoin is valued by anyone.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,972
126
Well right up until Nvidia decides you can't run those programs either. The consoles already do exactly what you want Nvidia to do, which is restricting what can be run. Not such a good idea now is it?
Where did I say anything about agreeing with nVidia? Post up a direct quote or retract that lie.

What utter nonsense is this? The only reason the US dollar has value or can buy anything is because some has produced something worth buying. Some imagined future where everyone mines crypto currency is inane. Who's growing the food, processing it, shipping it to the stores? Are all those people working for free?

You write as though some trust fund kid whose wealth comes from their parents owning Bitcoin is worse than if it was because their parents had a lot of US dollars, British pounds, or any previous existing currency. What's changed here exactly? You even have it backwards because you seem to suggest anyone who could just get their hands on a mining rig could join this wealthy class, when historically this kind of social mobility hasn't existed and is only more prominent in industrialized societies.

Bitcoin itself has been through so many boom and bust cycles now that you really have to ask yourself why it's still around if it's just a Ponzi scheme. Shouldn't the bottom have dropped out long ago? Also, the miners aren't necessarily the people who own the actual Bitcoins. Think of them like the people who deal with processing the transactions (a bit like banks do with traditional currency), but that the minting of new currency is tied to that process which is what incentivizes them to do that work in the first place. Bitcoin is only valued as a currency because you can buy products using it. Same as any other currency, with the exception that government currency is also used to pay your taxes.

It's pretty clear that you have no understanding of how Bitcoin works or what makes it valuable and even your idea of how a larger economy would function because you could make the same inane arguments using stocks instead of Bitcoin and how they just enable a bunch of people to get rich while someone else starves on the street.

I don't even own any crypto currency and I've never mined any either, but good god is the amount of ignorance surrounding them utterly astounding. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please try to make it at least a little bit informed. If you want to know why Bitcoin is really so valuable it's because no government can seize it. Maybe that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but there are plenty of people who live in a country where that's a real worry. You can perhaps understand why they'd like to diversify their assets a bit and why Bitcoin is valued by anyone.
Did you stand on a soapbox waving religious pamphlets while composing that one?

"No understanding of Bitcoin". Of course not, only the true enlightened disciples of the religion of crypto(tm) are attuned to this wonderful divine knowledge.

Pssst, I have a great offer for you. Ready? Here it is:

BFGCoin

That's right, a brand new crypto I just invented right now,. It has value because I said it does, and because you read it on the internet (so it must be true).

I also decide what numbers have value. I'll take #4, #10, and #60 for myself. The rest of you can burn through the power of the countries of Denmark and Ireland finding the other magic numbers.

For the low price of $million USD I'll give you one BFGCoin plus one free (what a bargain!), both on flash drive. You can plug it in atop that bridge I also just sold you.

Enjoy your new wealth!
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,210
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Right now people without electricity and GPUs can still make money. How does one operate crypto without power and GPUs?

Well in ETH you can stake and no GPU power needed. But that then just confirms your point about existing "rich" people having a huge starting advantage. Still ETH/crypto never said it is a tool to make poor people rich or be an "equalizer". The real vision for ETH is to replace institutions that act as trusted partners like banks or lawyers, keyword smart contracts and dApps. Ethereum is a decentralized computing platform that uses ETH/crypto based currency to pay for calculation fees. So no, it's not a ponzi scheme (many coins may be but not ETH).
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126
NVIDIA should just produce ultimate mining solution that uses ancient node.
There has been talk that they are "bringing back" the RTX 2060 and RTX 2060 Super, on TSMC's 12nm node, which is pretty-much uncongested. That might be a viable option for both gamers and miners.
 

The Alias

Senior member
Aug 22, 2012
647
58
91
Where did I say anything about agreeing with nVidia? Post up a direct quote or retract that lie.


Did you stand on a soapbox waving religious pamphlets while composing that one?

"No understanding of Bitcoin". Of course not, only the true enlightened disciples of the religion of crypto(tm) are attuned to this wonderful divine knowledge.

Pssst, I have a great offer for you. Ready? Here it is:

BFGCoin

That's right, a brand new crypto I just invented right now,. It has value because I said it does, and because you read it on the internet (so it must be true).

I also decide what numbers have value. I'll take #4, #10, and #60 for myself. The rest of you can burn through the power of the countries of Denmark and Ireland finding the other magic numbers.

For the low price of $million USD I'll give you one BFGCoin plus one free (what a bargain!), both on flash drive. You can plug it in atop that bridge I also just sold you.

Enjoy your new wealth!
How do fiat currencies get their value?
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,569
1,699
136
There has been talk that they are "bringing back" the RTX 2060 and RTX 2060 Super, on TSMC's 12nm node, which is pretty-much uncongested. That might be a viable option for both gamers and miners.
Miners would probably buy the 2060S at the reported $399 if it was sitting on the shelf, but I'm not sure how much it would help gamers. 2060S performance at that price is an absolute dog for gaming, and bots would still buy up every 3060 Ti and 3080 they can because they're a much better value for mining even at AIB markups.
 
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dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
338
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BFGCoin

That's right, a brand new crypto I just invented right now,. It has value because I said it does, and because you read it on the internet (so it must be true).
ironic because if you actually did have a new crypto I'd definitely buy in just for the sake of it. You gotta remember people are what give currency value and if people are willing to buy it, then it defacto it has value. If anything this post is an argument for crypto like ETH and bitcoin, because they don't cost a million dollars and aren't centralized to one person.

IMO every form of currency has its flaws and weaknesses, that doesn't necessarily make one better/worse than the other, especially if people are treating it just as any other form of money.
 
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Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
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What makes crypto worse:
-The dollar is backed by the US which has a huge mostly legal economy allowing hundreds of millions to live their lives. The main backers of crypto (i.e. those that really need it) are organised crime. I don't want to be helping organised crime to clean their money and sell their guns/drugs/slaves/whatever, nor is it a good long term backer as they'll switch if something better comes along.
-Crypto's rates having no proper backer are all over the place, it's as stable as jelly.
-It's unsafe, the exchanges are not secure and they have nothing to backup what's in them: if they go wrong you loose everything, if a bank goes wrong the bank has assets and the government will if necessary bail out the bank: a small investor will likely loose nothing. Don't expect organised crime to step in and help you if an exchange goes wrong.
-It's a huge waste of resources, and in a time when the environment is seen as important (even in America now Trump has gone) that's really bad. If I make a car and sell it for dollars it's at least it's a useful thing, if I make a crypto number I have burned the earths finite resources for nothing. It's not even a useful number - like decoding some important fundamentals of the universe.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
10,050
126
The main backers of crypto (i.e. those that really need it) are organised crime.
LOL!

That's like saying, the only reason that the Internal Combustion Engine was invented, was to run Moonshine during prohibition.

Crypto-currency is allowing millions of "unbanked" people, that have access to a cell phone, access to "banking" services, in a way never before seen. (Think the under-classes in India.) It's quite the democratizing thing.

And there is a certain subset of the population, that believes that the current banking system essentially IS "organized crime".
 
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Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,711
4,559
136
What utter nonsense is this? The only reason the US dollar has value or can buy anything is because some has produced something worth buying. Some imagined future where everyone mines crypto currency is inane. Who's growing the food, processing it, shipping it to the stores? Are all those people working for free?
What is the value of Internet protocol?

Quantify it.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,711
4,559
136
LOL!

That's like saying, the only reason that the Internal Combustion Engine was invented, was to run Moonshine during prohibition.

Crypto-currency is allowing millions of "unbanked" people, that have access to a cell phone, access to "banking" services, in a way never before seen. (Think the under-classes in India.) It's quite the democratizing thing.

And there is a certain subset of the population, that believes that the current banking system essentially IS "organized crime".
Blockchain based cryptocurrencies, are the first social - eoconomic technology, in the history of human civilization, that gives society the economic freedom and independence from: banks, governments, financial organization, and Interest Rates. If that alone is not worth anything, I do not know what is worth anything.

This is the exact thing that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were talking about when they were talking about making dollar independent from banks and interest rates, and this is exact thing that John Kennedy wanted to do with currency that is independent from banks.

Blockchain is in the same time od adoption, and misunderstanding as Internet was in the early 80's.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,003
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Where did I say anything about agreeing with nVidia? Post up a direct quote or retract that lie.

You didn't and I apologize if you feel that I put words in your mouth. I conflated your post with that of another poster.

Did you stand on a soapbox waving religious pamphlets while composing that one?

"No understanding of Bitcoin". Of course not, only the true enlightened disciples of the religion of crypto(tm) are attuned to this wonderful divine knowledge.

Pssst, I have a great offer for you. Ready? Here it is:

BFGCoin

That's right, a brand new crypto I just invented right now,. It has value because I said it does, and because you read it on the internet (so it must be true).

I also decide what numbers have value. I'll take #4, #10, and #60 for myself. The rest of you can burn through the power of the countries of Denmark and Ireland finding the other magic numbers.

For the low price of $million USD I'll give you one BFGCoin plus one free (what a bargain!), both on flash drive. You can plug it in atop that bridge I also just sold you.

Enjoy your new wealth!

Will anyone else accept BFGCoin as payment for goods or services? If not, then it doesn't matter how much you think it's worth or what you want to charge for it. Someone could mold some mud and loose gravel into a bust that loosely resembles Abraham Lincoln and charge $2,000,000 for it, but I doubt anyone would exchange money for it. Similarly the Venezuelan government can print a whole bunch of money and declare that it's worth value, but everyone knows its effectively worthless. It doesn't matter what you the seller say something is worth, it's the purchaser of something who determines its value because you cannot exchange what you have for more than they are willing to offer in exchange regardless of medium.

All currencies are just a commodity used to make commercial exchanges easier and don't change the underlying economic situation that would continue to exist independently of the existence of those currencies. Even if you're bartering goods, the exchange value of any good can vary based on supply and demand. Even the precious metals like gold and silver that were used historically as currency are subject to inflation or deflation based on their relative quantity. More modern fiat currencies only work when production of them is regulated to ensure that too much doesn't enter the market at any time and similarly that there isn't too little available either as countries that have tried to print their way out of debt have discovered. Currencies don't create wealth, they just help in the exchange of it.

BitCoin doesn't suffer from the same problem that the BFGCoin does. People all over the world will exchange it for other currencies (it isn't tied to the US Dollar and could just as easily be measured against any other currency) or as payment for goods or services. That it can be exchanged in this manner is what gives it value. There isn't any religion crypto dogma required to understand this. It's really just simple economics. BitCoin is just interesting because it's a decentralized system that found a way to solve the double-spending problem that effectively prevented most forms of digital currencies like it from existing.

Put it another way. There are any number of other things that people could be doing with computers and electricity. Everyone currently mining crypto currency could be crunching data for SETI, calculating Pi to an even more approximate amount, or even using their GPUs to run 3DMark benchmarks over and over again. People do these to some degree, but not at the same amount as they use them to mine for crypto currencies. If these were all equally pointless, then why are people gravitating to one of these supposedly equally pointless actions as opposed some other action? That simply shouldn't happen or we'd see a lot more people molding some mud and gravel into busts that loosely resemble Abraham Lincoln.

I think it's far more reasonable to say that you don't understand economics, how BitCoin works, or why people think it is valuable as opposed to declaring it all nonsense and trying to waive away the actions of thousands to millions of people as utter nonsense. If your issue with all of it is that there are a lot of other people who don't really understand crypto currency who are buying and selling it, then I'd have to ask how that's any different than the stock market that has been around considerably longer. The universe is under no obligation to make sense of itself for you, but failing to understand it doesn't mean you are correct or that your opinions are at all informed.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
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What is the value of Internet protocol?

Quantify it.

What do you even mean by "Internet protocol"? Are you talking about something like TCP or UDP? Assuming so are you just asking as to the value of some specification (e.g., IPv4) or about the value of the hardware and physical connections that realize those ideas? What exactly is or isn't included?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,711
4,559
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What do you even mean by "Internet protocol"? Are you talking about something like TCP or UDP? Assuming so are you just asking as to the value of some specification (e.g., IPv4) or about the value of the hardware and physical connections that realize those ideas? What exactly is or isn't included?
No.

I have asked a very simple question.

What is the value of the Internet protocol? Financial, quantifiable value.

What is the value of the connection between different technologies? Between people?