"Japan's Pioneer to stop making plasma panels"

[JackBurton]

Wow, this is VERY upsetting. Hopefully someone got their facts messed up, but if true, this is REALLY a sad state of affairs.

CNBC Article

I was anxiously awaiting the ECC and the 9mm Kuros, but I don't think anyone will see them now. 🙁 Very sad news. VERY sad.

 

[dwell]

That sucks. They're buying LCD panels from Sharp too.

 

[Shawn]

LCD is where the money's at I guess.

 

[Modelworks]

Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

They have the best panels out there and they aren't all that expensive compared to the alternatives.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

They have the best panels out there and they aren't all that expensive compared to the alternatives.

Your misunderstanding.
I didn't say they didn't make quality stuff.
Its that the company isn't structured to be able to sell to the ultra high end.
Thats a market with lower volume sales, its not something pioneer is good at.
They need volume to stay in business.
Which means selling and manufacturing for a wider customer base.

It would be like Ford trying to adapt the sales tactics of Porsche.
The company would go under.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

They have the best panels out there and they aren't all that expensive compared to the alternatives.

Exactly. Kuros are pretty damn close to perfection.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

They have the best panels out there and they aren't all that expensive compared to the alternatives.

Your misunderstanding.
I didn't say they didn't make quality stuff.
Its that the company isn't structured to be able to sell to the ultra high end.
Thats a market with lower volume sales, its not something pioneer is good at.
They need volume to stay in business.
Which means selling and manufacturing for a wider customer base.

It would be like Ford trying to adapt the sales tactics of Porsche.
The company would go under.

Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

[/quote]
Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

The problem with that argument is that they can't keep their most expensive display in stock, the 150FD which retails for $7500.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

The problem with that argument is that they can't keep their most expensive display in stock, the 150FD which retails for $7500.

Now compare the sales of that display versus the cheaper displays .
Again , its a business, they want to make as much money as possible.
The amount of resources that went into that one display could have been used to make many more lcd displays for far greater profits.

How many consumers are looking for a 7500.00 display versus a 1200.00 one ?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

The problem with that argument is that they can't keep their most expensive display in stock, the 150FD which retails for $7500.

Now compare the sales of that display versus the cheaper displays .
Again , its a business, they want to make as much money as possible.
The amount of resources that went into that one display could have been used to make many more lcd displays for far greater profits.

Yes, and I'm sure with less quality.

How many consumers are looking for a 7500.00 display versus a 1200.00 one ?

Apparently as many as Pioneer could manufacture 150FDs for. Again, they were constantly sold out.

 

[Wuzup101]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

The problem with that argument is that they can't keep their most expensive display in stock, the 150FD which retails for $7500.

Now compare the sales of that display versus the cheaper displays .
Again , its a business, they want to make as much money as possible.
The amount of resources that went into that one display could have been used to make many more lcd displays for far greater profits.

Yes, and I'm sure with less quality.

How many consumers are looking for a 7500.00 display versus a 1200.00 one ?

Apparently as many as Pioneer could manufacture 150FDs for. Again, they were constantly sold out.

You can be constantly sold out of something and still not be making a huge profit off of it. It all has to do with volume of sales. It's not like the big box stores are going to order as many $7500 displays as they are going to order $1200 displays. The cheaper displays sell more frequently. If they only have 1-2 $7500 displays in stock at any given time it's quite easy to "sell out" of one. If they have 20-30 $1200 displays in stock there is a larger buffer.

Regardless of how awesome the Kuro's are, if they see a better way to make a profit, they are going to take it. They certainly wouldn't make this move (assuming it's true), if they thought they were going to lose money doing it. I've always wanted a kuro, and it saddens me that I probably will never get (a new) one because I'm still a student (and by the time I actually have a job and the income to buy one, they will be gone). However, I'm not going to blame Pioneer... they are in the same business as every other company - making money...

Edit: The article also seems to indicate that they will not be producing the actual glass but (may/will) continue to make Plasma TVs (probably using glass sourced from other companies). Perhaps their technology for the ultra high contrast kuro's will be absorbed by whatever company ends up making their glass? Who knows?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Wuzup101

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: JackBurton




Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

Again, your missing the point.
It doesn't matter if they make the best in the world.
Its that they aren't selling them when compared to cheaper alternatives.
You can make top of the line all you want, but if the sales aren't there, then its pointless for a company to pursue it.

Pioneer as a company is not structured financially to maintain low volume sales on a high end product like plasma displays. They are instead looking at the profits they can make from the cheaper tech.


If your company could make a display for half the cost and get twice the profit, which would you manufacture ?

The problem with that argument is that they can't keep their most expensive display in stock, the 150FD which retails for $7500.

Now compare the sales of that display versus the cheaper displays .
Again , its a business, they want to make as much money as possible.
The amount of resources that went into that one display could have been used to make many more lcd displays for far greater profits.

Yes, and I'm sure with less quality.

How many consumers are looking for a 7500.00 display versus a 1200.00 one ?

Apparently as many as Pioneer could manufacture 150FDs for. Again, they were constantly sold out.

You can be constantly sold out of something and still not be making a huge profit off of it. It all has to do with volume of sales. It's not like the big box stores are going to order as many $7500 displays as they are going to order $1200 displays. The cheaper displays sell more frequently. If they only have 1-2 $7500 displays in stock at any given time it's quite easy to "sell out" of one. If they have 20-30 $1200 displays in stock there is a larger buffer.

Regardless of how awesome the Kuro's are, if they see a better way to make a profit, they are going to take it. They certainly wouldn't make this move (assuming it's true), if they thought they were going to lose money doing it. I've always wanted a kuro, and it saddens me that I probably will never get (a new) one because I'm still a student (and by the time I actually have a job and the income to buy one, they will be gone). However, I'm not going to blame Pioneer... they are in the same business as every other company - making money...

Edit: The article also seems to indicate that they will not be producing the actual glass but (may/will) continue to make Plasma TVs (probably using glass sourced from other companies). Perhaps their technology for the ultra high contrast kuro's will be absorbed by whatever company ends up making their glass? Who knows?

The 9G Kuro's are still being made by Pioneer and won't be affected according to D-Nice on AVS, so this year is most likely the last one you can get "true" Pioneer Kuro's (maybe into early 09).

The question then becomes if I am buying a Pioneer panel, made with Panasonic glass, why not just buy the Panasonic for cheaper? Yes there will be processing and such in the Pioneer that will most likely be higher quality and better, but processing can only do so much. In the end the glass is what displays the image and if its crap glass, it won't look as good as some quality stuff. Yes Pioneer could share their tech with Panasonic (or whoever they buy glass from), but even with Pioneer's tech I don't think Panasonic will be able to produce the same quality of glass as Pioneer branded stuff no matter what tech Pioneer gives them. Pioneer produces the best HDTV's currently, and that is because of the PQ. 90% of PQ is the screen itself, sure you can do some processing to help but fact is if the screen is crap no amount of processing will make it look as good as a panel with a quality screen.

This would be like saying Pepsi is still going to sell drinks, but instead of using a syrup that they make they are going to use Coca-Cola's. IMO even with access to Pioneer's tech another company won't be able to make glass of the same quality as Pioneer.

 

[1prophet]

From the article

In 2007, Pioneer held the No. 5 share of the global plasma TV market at 7.3 percent.

While it initially targeted sales of 720,000 units for the year ending March 31, it recently downgraded its sales projection to 480,000 units.

The plasma TV operations are expected to incur an operating loss of more than 10 billion yen this fiscal year, leading to the major overhaul, the Nikkei said.

Money talks, plasma walks, no matter how good your product may be.

 

[dwell]

Unfortunately plasma is a declining technology. It has better traits than LCD (blacks, motion) but to the layperson, nobody cares. Every time some average Joe tells me they want a HDTV I asked them "LCD or Plasma" and they always go LCD for whatever reason.

I was talking to two guys the other day and they both wanted new LCDs. When I told them plasma looks better with the lights off they looked at me like deers in the headlights. Both own LCDs, older models even, and the supposed nails on the coffin for LCD don't bother them.

Catering to avsforum snobs is not going to carry the technology. You have to appeal to the average Joes out there.

 

[cliftonite]

I was hoping to pick up either an 8g 60" Kuro or the 9g 60" depending on the price. Hope I can still do this 🙁

 

[dwell]

They are not dropping manufacturing until 2009, so, 9G *should* see the light of day.

 

[Slick5150]

Plasma is just not going to survive. Its costly to produce, and costly to sell

I'm not saying they aren't damn nice looking TVs, and Pioneer's have been pretty much the best of the best, but to the average person just looking for a TV, a 47" HDTV is a 47" HDTV, and the $1100 LCD sure looks a lot more tempting than the $7,000 plasma.

I'm still hoping someone can market a cost effective OLED TV at some point in the near future.

 

[zinfamous]

OMG! this is truly sad news.

hopefully I'll be in the market for an ELITE by the time they start disappearing 🙁

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Slick5150
Plasma is just not going to survive. Its costly to produce, and costly to sell

I'm not saying they aren't damn nice looking TVs, and Pioneer's have been pretty much the best of the best, but to the average person just looking for a TV, a 47" HDTV is a 47" HDTV, and the $1100 LCD sure looks a lot more tempting than the $7,000 plasma.

I'm still hoping someone can market a cost effective OLED TV at some point in the near future.

For a good LCD (i.e. the Sammy 71 series, or the Sony XBR's) for a 46/47 inch tv the 50 inch Kuro was cheaper.

Prices are as follows
Kuro PDP-5080 $1999.99+tax (What I payed for mine a week ago at Best Buy)
Samsung 4671 $2,353.98 shipped (via Amazon.com)
Sony XBR4 46 inch $2,497.70 shipped (via Amazon.com)

True you can get a Westinghouse for that price, but find me a quality LCD with similar PQ to the Kuro at about the same price. So for 4 more inches of screen size you pay about the same as the 46 inchers from Sony/Samsung. I will take my Kuro any day of the week.

Edit: The people that buy the $1200 LCD's are the same that buy the Monster cables from BB thinking that a $100 cable will make up for their cheap LCD PQ. Oh and these are the same people that get home and put the LCD in torch mode and think they have awesome PQ.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris
Unfortunately plasma is a declining technology. It has better traits than LCD (blacks, motion) but to the layperson, nobody cares. Every time some average Joe tells me they want a HDTV I asked them "LCD or Plasma" and they always go LCD for whatever reason.

I was talking to two guys the other day and they both wanted new LCDs. When I told them plasma looks better with the lights off they looked at me like deers in the headlights. Both own LCDs, older models even, and the supposed nails on the coffin for LCD don't bother them.

Catering to avsforum snobs is not going to carry the technology. You have to appeal to the average Joes out there.

That is what they call living in a Wal-Mart world. I love it when "the average Joe" is proud of their 50" Vizio they just bought. "Hey look, check out my new HDTV." Yeah, wow, congratulation on your newly acquired crap. If you haven't learned by now, you get what you pay for. Instead of a 50" sh!tter, you could have gotten a 42" quality set. But most people would rather have quantity rather than quality. And those people always have this dumb look on their face like they got an absolute steal because their TV was $1000, and another TV of the same size was $3500. Well guess what, I hope YOU are happy with it, because you ain't impressing anyone else.

And if that is what "the average Joe" wants, fine. But for the people that are quite critical of their set, Pioneer always fit the bill nicely. Pioneer catered to the niche market, but apparently in the end, it wasn't enough. Pioneer always set the bar high and pushed everyone else to keep up. But I guess "good enough" is unfortunately what sells best. Welcome to the Wal-Mart world.

 

[Slick5150]

Well, without the lower end of the market, Pioneer and other companies would set their prices even higher. So, having the full spectrum of the market helps everyone, including the niche high-end market. Unfortunately for Pioneer, it isn't enough of a market in this case.

 

[Vette73]

The real problem along with price is that everybody is looking for 1080p and plasma does not seem to have it unless you pay a lot then we are at square one of the price issue.

In the end LCD will win based on ease of 1080p and lowwer price.

 

[Killrose]

I'm sure Pioneer did'nt just decide to "quit" but no doubt have sold off their interests to someone out there. Dropping out of the plasma picture as a competitor is worth alot of money to someone. Who bought what has not be revealed yet. The price of plasma panels has just gone up and someone is smiling I garantee.