"Japan's Pioneer to stop making plasma panels"

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Wow for a 73" set that is pretty cheap. Too bad something like that would be too big for my basement hehe. That is kind of sick though. How much do bulbs run for Mitsubishi's? I was pleasantly surprised to see my Toshiba's bulb can be had for 170 bucks.

Couldn't tell ya, but the cost of running that is probably still pretty cheap.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
So what you're saying is that a viable OLED display will be available in 2010? And since you made the argument that it is better than plasma, we should see at least a 50" model, right? You want to put your money where you mouth is? 50" OLED before the end of 2010 for under $4000 (And look at that, that's not even in Wal-Mart Joe's budget). But I'll even give you under $4000 MSRP (Sony or Samsung). If it can meet that criteria, by the end of 2010, you win. How about it?

viable

3 a: capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b: capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1): having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2): financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

If Samsung gets a 42" OLED out in 2010, yes, OLED will be a viable alternative.

How the hell is a 42" OLED a viable alternative to what Pioneer had to offer? Pioneer's primary market is 50" and larger displays. And Pioneer's 2010 9mm concept was 50". Again, how is a 42" display a viable alternative?

You're mistaking "viable" with "killer". Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about a 50" OLED in 2010.

No, you're back pedaling now....

The good news is OLED will be viable by time Pioneer is out of the business, and there's all indications the technology puts Kuro to shame, in a thin package no less.

So something that would put a 2010 Pioneer Kuro "to shame" is not "killer"? Give me a freakin' break. Again, Pioneer's main market is 50"+ and for something to a "viable" option, it better be at least 50". Other wise, guess what, it's not viable.

Maybe you have such a bad case of sour grapes, that you're losing focus of this argument. I never said OLED was a bad tech. It may very well be the HDTV tech of the future. I'm just saying, it's not going to be competing in Pioneer's market for at least 5 years. And all I can tell you is that OLED would have its hands full even if they DID come out with a 50" display in 2010, because Pioneer's concept was simply amazing. Who knows what Pioneer could have done in 5 yrs.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
How the hell is a 42" OLED a viable alternative to what Pioneer had to offer? Pioneer's primary market is 50" and larger displays. And Pioneer's 2010 9mm concept was 50". Again, how is a 42" display a viable alternative?

The technology will be a viable alternative to plasma. The technology is what I've been talking about. You're harping on size. Was there or was there not a 4280 Kuro?

So something that would put a 2010 Pioneer Kuro "to shame" is not "killer"? Give me a freakin' break. Again, Pioneer's main market is 50"+ and for something to a "viable" option, it better be at least 50". Other wise, guess what, it's not viable.

Killer is more a sales related term. There already is a Kuro killer -- LCD.

Maybe you have such a bad case of sour grapes, that you're losing focus of this argument. I never said OLED was a bad tech.

Yes you did: "Serious motion issues" "Short life span"

It may very well be the HDTV tech of the future. I'm just saying, it's not going to be competing in Pioneer's market for at least 5 years. And all I can tell you is that OLED would have its hands full even if they DID come out with a 50" display in 2010, because Pioneer's concept was simply amazing. Who knows what Pioneer could have done in 5 yrs.

Pioneer probably won't be making plasma in five years. Hell, they may be out in 2010 at the rate the plasma market is declining.

 

[JackBurton]

Ok, this is getting really irritating. I think you just want to argue just for the sake of arguing.

How is a product "viable" if it can't compete with the market its competitors are in? Plasma's main market is 50" and larger. Smaller than 50" is LCD's territory (And they pretty much dominate it). If all OLED can produce is a 42" panel, their MAIN competitors will be LCD, NOT plasma. Oh what, OLED is going to be a viable option for the small fraction of the plasma market? WOW, that's fantastic. I can tell you I never recommend 42" plasmas (of any kind) because first off I think they are too small and secondly because of their wacky resolution. Is that the market you think OLED will be "viable?" Well that's great, but you should be more concerned about it being a viable option to LCD.

Killer is more a sales related term. There already is a Kuro killer -- LCD.

LOL, you've pretty much lost all your credibility right there.

Yes you did: "Serious motion issues" "Short life span"

I said those are the hurdles it needs to overcome. Just like LCDs in the beginning had AWFUL black levels and awful viewing angles. However, since then the tech matured and they've gotten MUCH better. Same will be with OLED.

Pioneer probably won't be making plasma in five years. Hell, they may be out in 2010 at the rate the plasma market is declining.

That's something I can't predict. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.


You know, I love how you're now shooting for the stars with Kuro vs OLED. Didn't you start off arguing about what the "average Wal-Mart Joe" wants? Well, OLED won't be in Wal-Mart Joe's future for a loooong time. I can guarantee you that.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

Give it up JB, you know you're dead wrong about all this.

Shoot, I've learned so much from this thread that I'm now totally convinced that my Kuro is just a POS and I'm going to donate it to the local homeless shelter, at least I can get a bit of a tax write-off for it. 😉 😉

I'm probably going to sue my optometrist too, it's his fault my eyes were "fooled" by this crappy set ...

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
How is a product "viable" if it can't compete with the market its competitors are in? Plasma's main market is 50" and larger. Smaller than 50" is LCD's territory (And they pretty much dominate it). If all OLED can produce is a 42" panel, their MAIN competitors will be LCD, NOT plasma. Oh what, OLED is going to be a viable option for the small fraction of the plasma market? WOW, that's fantastic. I can tell you I never recommend 42" plasmas (of any kind) because first off I think they are too small and secondly because of their wacky resolution. Is that the market you think OLED will be "viable?" Well that's great, but you should be more concerned about it being a viable option to LCD.

For 2010, yes. It's not like OLED will be sub-50" forever.

Killer is more a sales related term. There already is a Kuro killer -- LCD.

LOL, you've pretty much lost all your credibility right there.

Oh, LCD sales are not killing that of plasma. Pioneer is not getting out of the panel business due to lousy sales?

Yes you did: "Serious motion issues" "Short life span"

I said those are the hurdles it needs to overcome. Just like LCDs in the beginning had AWFUL black levels and awful viewing angles. However, since then the tech matured and they've gotten MUCH better. Same will be with OLED.

Except OLED does not have "serious motion issues". You were wrong.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris
For 2010, yes. It's not like OLED will be sub-50" forever.

Again, go back and read, 5 yrs.

Oh, LCD sales are not killing that of plasma. Pioneer is not getting out of the panel business due to lousy sales?

You're right, when I'm looking for the best performing display, the first thing I ask is, "how are the sales numbers?" You're grasping. Sales numbers have NOTHING to do with comparing the performance of an HDTV. When you have people over watching your set does the conversation go something like this:

Chris: "I know my set looks like sh!t compared to a Kuro, but have you seen the sales numbers? LCDs are really kicking plasma's ass in sales."

Chris' guest: "So your saying LCDs looks better than the new Pioneers plasmas?"

Chris: "Did I mention how good LCDs are selling compared to plasmas?"

Sales number is what Pioneer needs to worry about. Customers need to be concerned with the product Pioneer is actually producing. That's it.

Except OLED does not have "serious motion issues". You were wrong.

That is what a person that saw a OLED stated. If they've improved since then, GREAT. However, they've still got problems building larger panels and short life cycles. Will they improve as the years go on? Yes. Will they have a display that could have competed with Pioneer's concept in 2010? No. They won't even have a product in 2010 that could compete with Pioneer's 2008 models. 🙂

This thread was started because Pioneer, the leaders in HDTV, is closing down. And with their departure, goes some awesome tech we as the consumers will be missing out on (Wal-Mart Joes, pay no mind). However, for anyone that wants to purchase the finest HDTV in 2008 and maybe even 2009, Pioneer should still be releasing their 9G displays, 5020s, 6020s, 111FDs, & 151FDs in 2008. So for anyone that wants to have the last true Pioneer plasma, this year maybe it. I for one am seriously considering purchasing the 151FD in Sept when they are released. I've been waiting a looong time for the perfect set, and this maybe the year for me to buy.

 

[cvrefugee]

People still buy plasma displays? I didn't even know they sold them anymore.

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

Actually plasmas are cheaper than LCD's.

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Plasma looks nice but its just too expensive.
Pioneer has never been the ultra high end manufacturer, more like pro-sumer, so this doesn't really surprise me.

They have the best panels out there and they aren't all that expensive compared to the alternatives.

Your misunderstanding.
I didn't say they didn't make quality stuff.
Its that the company isn't structured to be able to sell to the ultra high end.
Thats a market with lower volume sales, its not something pioneer is good at.
They need volume to stay in business.
Which means selling and manufacturing for a wider customer base.

It would be like Ford trying to adapt the sales tactics of Porsche.
The company would go under.

Ok, just stop right there. Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Pioneer sells THE BEST flat panels, bar none. The Elite 150FDs are pretty damn hard to keep in stock. Pioneer is THE high end manufactures of plasmas. The only other choice is Runco, and people buying Runcos have been turning their attention to Pioneer. Again, Pioneer makes THE BEST flat panels, bar none. You don't get any better than Pioneer.

I never heard of Runco?

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally posted by: Chris
Unfortunately plasma is a declining technology. It has better traits than LCD (blacks, motion) but to the layperson, nobody cares. Every time some average Joe tells me they want a HDTV I asked them "LCD or Plasma" and they always go LCD for whatever reason.

I was talking to two guys the other day and they both wanted new LCDs. When I told them plasma looks better with the lights off they looked at me like deers in the headlights. Both own LCDs, older models even, and the supposed nails on the coffin for LCD don't bother them.

Catering to avsforum snobs is not going to carry the technology. You have to appeal to the average Joes out there.

They probably really don't know about technology all that well. Regardless plasmas and LCD's will be old technology soon. The new thing will be OLED's or some other type of technology.

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
The real problem along with price is that everybody is looking for 1080p and plasma does not seem to have it unless you pay a lot then we are at square one of the price issue.

In the end LCD will win based on ease of 1080p and lowwer price.

Best Buy prices:

Samsung 5271 = $3509.99

Sony 52" XBR4 = $3499.99

Pioneer 5010 (1080p) = $3999.99

I don't see a huge price discrepancy. That actually looks pretty damn competitive to me.

You are comparing the high end which most people don;t buy.
Find me a a 1080p LCD and see if you can find a plasma for the same lowwer price. LCD is winning as they have 32" LCD's for less then $500 soemtimes now.

i have a 32", 37", and a 47" LCD. The 47" was $1099 and has a $100 gift card coming back from it. Find a plasma that is 1080p and 47" or larger for that price.

I dont understand why people buy cheap LCD's? Doesn't make any sense. I have a pany 42 06 model and it's nice.
Cheap LCD's or plasmas have horrible picture's. I rather wait and save up for a mid or higher end flat panel hdtv.

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
And if that is what "the average Joe" wants, fine. But for the people that are quite critical of their set, Pioneer always fit the bill nicely. Pioneer catered to the niche market, but apparently in the end, it wasn't enough. Pioneer always set the bar high and pushed everyone else to keep up. But I guess "good enough" is unfortunately what sells best. Welcome to the Wal-Mart world.

It's not just Pioneer, it's plasma in general. For whatever reason plasma manufacturers are not marketing sets as well as LCDs. I suspect it's because of margins. Plasma panels are more expensive to produce, bulkier and heavier which leads to higher transport fees. It's actually in manufacturers best interests for plasma to go away the same way (but not as badly) as it was for CRT to go away.

And where do you get this information? Panasonic is doing quite well. Samsung I believe is doing fine too, but they play both sides of the fence (LCD & plasma).

The good news is OLED will be viable by time Pioneer is out of the business, and there's all indications the technology puts Kuro to shame, in a thin package no less.

Are you kidding my? You talk about "the average Joe" and you then bring up OLED? Seriously? Wal-Mart Joe isn't coming anywhere close to an OLED for a loooong time (I'd say at LEAST 5yrs +). Not to mention OLED has QUITE a few hurdles to overcome before they can even THINK about competing in Pioneer's market (50"+ high end HDTVs). OLED may not even pan out.

I was told that OLED technology has about 10k hrs of life. That's why they use it in cell phones. Unless OLED can be cheaply produce to the mass consumers and have a life expectancy 100k or more, then I don't see this tech flying anytime soon.

 

[tvfreakazoid]

Pioneer's are great stuff but I wouldn't say "thee" best. I own a panny and I really like it, but the glare is a problem from time to time. It's too bad the Pioneer couldn't do away with the glare issues. I know they have a coating on it to reduce the glare, but still it was very noticeable.

I guess they couldn't compete with samsung, sony and panny's.

I was also told by a panny rep that they are going to double their brightness of their plasmas sets for this year. I think he said the brightness level is rated at some where around 200+. So i'm curious how they're going to look like when they come out. Another good thing would be is to some how find a way to completely do away with burn in's. I know they don't happen very often but it's still possible. That's why some people don't want to buy a plasmas cause of that. We'll see what the future holds for plasmas and LCD's.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You're right, when I'm looking for the best performing display, the first thing I ask is, "how are the sales numbers?" You're grasping. Sales numbers have NOTHING to do with comparing the performance of an HDTV.

They have to do with the availability of the display, which in the end is all that matters. Pioneer cannot afford to produce panels any more because they have been losing sales to LCD and "non-enthusiast" plasmas. End of story.

This thread was started because Pioneer, the leaders in HDTV, is closing down. And with their departure, goes some awesome tech we as the consumers will be missing out on (Wal-Mart Joes, pay no mind). However, for anyone that wants to purchase the finest HDTV in 2008 and maybe even 2009, Pioneer should still be releasing their 9G displays, 5020s, 6020s, 111FDs, & 151FDs in 2008. So for anyone that wants to have the last true Pioneer plasma, this year maybe it. I for one am seriously considering purchasing the 151FD in Sept when they are released. I've been waiting a looong time for the perfect set, and this maybe the year for me to buy.

Except it's not a perfect set. Not even close. Better than LCDs and low-end plasmas? Yes. Perfect? No way. Plasma technology is inherently imperfect.

 

[andrei3333]

this is not good news as pioneer elite plasmas are some of the best out there

 

[TerryMathews]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: Dman877

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: Slick5150
Plasma is just not going to survive. Its costly to produce, and costly to sell

I'm not saying they aren't damn nice looking TVs, and Pioneer's have been pretty much the best of the best, but to the average person just looking for a TV, a 47" HDTV is a 47" HDTV, and the $1100 LCD sure looks a lot more tempting than the $7,000 plasma.

I'm still hoping someone can market a cost effective OLED TV at some point in the near future.

For a good LCD (i.e. the Sammy 71 series, or the Sony XBR's) for a 46/47 inch tv the 50 inch Kuro was cheaper.

Prices are as follows
Kuro PDP-5080 $1999.99+tax (What I payed for mine a week ago at Best Buy)
Samsung 4671 $2,353.98 shipped (via Amazon.com)
Sony XBR4 46 inch $2,497.70 shipped (via Amazon.com)

True you can get a Westinghouse for that price, but find me a quality LCD with similar PQ to the Kuro at about the same price. So for 4 more inches of screen size you pay about the same as the 46 inchers from Sony/Samsung. I will take my Kuro any day of the week.

Edit: The people that buy the $1200 LCD's are the same that buy the Monster cables from BB thinking that a $100 cable will make up for their cheap LCD PQ. Oh and these are the same people that get home and put the LCD in torch mode and think they have awesome PQ.

Issue #2 is you are comparing Westinghouse, a value brand, to Pioneer which is just like comparing a Kia to a Lexus. Nothing personal but your Westinghouse is not going to have anywhere near as nice a picture as mid range/high end products. That is just fact. It might be satisfactory to you, and I am glad for that but that doesn't change that it's still low end. I looked at the 42 Westy because BB had them on sale for $900, but I would rather spend the extra money to get something that satisfies my wants and needs in a TV. Okay not everybody will buy the Monster rip off cables and leave their LCD in torch mode, but "average consumer Joe" will. Isn't that what we are discussing "average consumer Joe"? The type of person that will go into BB look at the wall and buy what looks best in store, instead of doing research and figuring out what is really the best?

Westys aren't bad, but you're right they def. are low end. That said, they are capable of as nice a picture as any other HDTV assuming two points:

1) You buy from a vendor where you can keep exchanging until you get a perfect set. I've got three Westys and they required an average of three exchanges each to get a set with even backlighting, little to no motion blur, and no dead pixels. It also helps to have a test setup ready for when you bring it home.

2) Scaling is bad, pulldown detection is worse. These sets look great with correct-resolution content on them, good with progressive scan content. They look downright awful with 480i content, worse than almost any other LCD TV I've seen. Which is why I have HTPCs on all of them running SageTV, so it handles the scaling for them and I end up with content that isn't quite HD but much better than live TV on the sets.

The best thing to do is to treat them as giant computer monitors and connect appropriately. OTA HD and QAM look good on the tuner though...

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You're right, when I'm looking for the best performing display, the first thing I ask is, "how are the sales numbers?" You're grasping. Sales numbers have NOTHING to do with comparing the performance of an HDTV.

They have to do with the availability of the display, which in the end is all that matters. Pioneer cannot afford to produce panels any more because they have been losing sales to LCD and "non-enthusiast" plasmas. End of story.

So at your place the conversation turns into this?

Chris' guest: "I just saw a Pioneer Elite in our local Magnolia. It looked AWESOME! Why didn't you get an Elite instead of the TV you bought Chris. It looked much better."

Chris: "You know they're going to stop producing plasmas, right?"

Chris' guest: "But they're still available now, right?"

Chris: "Oh yeah, they have plenty. As a matter of fact, they're coming out with a new model this year."

Chris' guest: "So what does that have to do about me buying it now?"

Chris: "Um, nothing really. I just like to throw out random figures that have nothing to do what we're talking about."

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Except it's not a perfect set. Not even close. Better than LCDs and low-end plasmas? Yes. Perfect? No way. Plasma technology is inherently imperfect.

:roll: Nothing is perfect. It will be the perfect set for me, and will be closer to perfection than ANY other set in 2008 and even 2009.


And a little FYI, Pioneer looks like they will still be making plasmas, however they will be using Panasonic glass. And given Runco and Fujitsu use/used Panasonic glass, we could see the best Pioneer plasmas yet after the transition.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
So at your place the conversation turns into this?

More like:

Chris' guest: "I just saw a Pioneer Elite in our local Magnolia. It looked AWESOME! Why didn't you get an Elite instead of the TV you bought Chris. It looked much better."

Chris: "Because I didn't want to spend up to $6,000 on a TV I would have to babysit due to its inherent flaws"

Chris' guest: "$6,000??? Babysit??? Flaws???"

Chris: "Yeah, for what you pay you get to watch it at sub-optimal settings for the first 200 hours, then have to worry about gaming, sports logos, and falling asleep with the set on. Oh, and see that over-sized window over there? I'd have to wall it off with curtains to take full advantage of the set because in daylight it looks not much better than a $700 LCD."

Chris' guest: "So why do people pay so much for these sets?"

Chris: "Same reason people overpay for Apple notebooks. Because they think they're buying perfection. Whatever floats their boat."

Yeah, that sounds about right.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
So at your place the conversation turns into this?

More like:

Chris' guest: "I just saw a Pioneer Elite in our local Magnolia. It looked AWESOME! Why didn't you get an Elite instead of the TV you bought Chris. It looked much better."

Chris: "Because I didn't want to spend up to $6,000 on a TV I would have to babysit due to its inherent flaws"

Chris' guest: "$6,000??? Babysit??? Flaws???"

Chris: "Yeah, for what you pay you get to watch it at sub-optimal settings for the first 200 hours, then have to worry about gaming, sports logos, and falling asleep with the set on. Oh, and see that over-sized window over there? I'd have to wall it off with curtains to take full advantage of the set because in daylight it looks about as good as a $700 LCD from 2003."

Chris' guest: "So why do people pay so much for these sets?"

Chris: "Because they think they're buying perfection. Whatever floats their boat."

continued...

Chris' guest: "Gee Chris, I heard from this guy on the net that calls himself JackBurton, saying that what you said is a gross over exaggeration that only people that can't afford the set say in order to feel better about their purchase. And let me tell you, he sounded much more knowledgeable about the subject than you. And why would you go from considering purchasing a 60" Elite (~$5500) to a 46" LCD? That just doesn't make any sense. I just think your lying to me again, and I just don't think I can be friends with a liar anymore. I'm leaving! And by the way, I slept with your wife.

Chris: "Have I told you Pioneer is losing money in plasma sales?"

Now THAT is "end of the story!" 😛

 

[dwell]

Ooookay Jack. If you're going to take it the level of insulting my wife, whatever. Enjoy the set. You'll fit right in with the AVS Kuro Klan.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris
Ooookay Jack. If you're going to take it the level of insulting my wife, whatever. Enjoy the set. You'll fit right in with the AVS Kuro Klan.

Jesus Christ man, chill. I was just kidding.

 

[dwell]

No worries. I didn't take it personally, just hassling you back 🙂 Either way, there's not going to be a resolution here. I think all current flat panel tech sucks, you're in the Kuro crowd. What more can I say?

 

[krotchy]

I don't know if its been mentioned, but I didnt see it on the lat page or so of this post.

Pioneer is giving Panasonic all its panel design technology as part of the deal to buy the plasma panels from them. So this absence of Pioneer panels will likely not effect Pioneer television technology and will probably make Panasonic and Pioneer TV's better, since the intellectual property will be combined, and Matsushita backing the production gives them much more money into the actual production processes of the panels themselves.