Japan orders 80 F/A-22 Raptors!!

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: carage
Topic Title: Japan orders 80 F/A-22 Raptors!!
Topic Summary: Will President Bush grant their wish?

Of course. Have to keep the "Defense" Co's busy. Pretty much the only "Manufacturing" the U.S. has left.

But is the US government willing to share top of the line equipment and classified technology with other countries, even if it is its closest ally in Asia?

If you know about it, its no longer top of the line or classified technology. Note that the F-117 was in service for almost 8 years before the public even saw a picture of it. The F-22 by technological means is old news. The F-35 JSF will own it anyways.

The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter. The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

and also the f35 is designed to be a cheap plane to build (replacement for the f-16 and F-18) it has no stealth also. granted it will still go toe to toe with most planes out thier it is by no means anywhere close to as good as the f22

 

[CaptnKirk]

I have made a concious decision to stay out of this thread until now.

All you guys talking trash about what the F-22 and the F-35 will or won't do,
can or can't do, has or doesn't have proves to me how little knowledge there
is on the outside of these projects.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Words for the authors to eat:

The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter.
The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

the f35 is designed to be a cheap plane to build (replacement for the f-16 and F-18)
it has no stealth also. granted it will still go toe to toe with most planes out thier it is by no means anywhere close to as good as the f22
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clueless, clueless, clueless.
I see dumb people.

F-22, Unclassified Data
F-35, Unclassified Data

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
honestly the us just needs to give taiwan the nuke and be done with it. yes it will piss china off to no end yes it would really make us enemies but I don't think china will risk nuclear war over tainwan. Since they want taiwan for econmic purposes if taiwan has a few nukes then if china invades you can say goodby to china's economy, since taiwan would just nuke a few mojor cities

That would be a less than brilliant way to dump 30+ years of effort at preventing nuclear proliferation, not to mention breaking several international treaties.

Offering the U.S. a free air/naval base would be a much more effective proposition if China ever got serious bout taking Taiwan by force.

well we wouldn't give it to them openly. make it like israel they never said that they did or didn't have a nuke but everyone knows the ethier we gave them one or told them how to build them.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
honestly the us just needs to give taiwan the nuke and be done with it. yes it will piss china off to no end yes it would really make us enemies but I don't think china will risk nuclear war over tainwan. Since they want taiwan for econmic purposes if taiwan has a few nukes then if china invades you can say goodby to china's economy, since taiwan would just nuke a few mojor cities

That would be a less than brilliant way to dump 30+ years of effort at preventing nuclear proliferation, not to mention breaking several international treaties.

Offering the U.S. a free air/naval base would be a much more effective proposition if China ever got serious bout taking Taiwan by force.

Both are true, but offering a miltary base to US would just put US in more direct confrontation with China.
Therefore, I believe that the nuke would be a more viable solution.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
I have made a concious decision to stay out of this thread until now.

All you guys talking trash about what the F-22 and the F-35 will or won't do,
can or can't do, has or doesn't have proves to me how little knowledge there
is on the outside of these projects.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Words for the authors to eat:

The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter.
The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

the f35 is designed to be a cheap plane to build (replacement for the f-16 and F-18)
it has no stealth also. granted it will still go toe to toe with most planes out thier it is by no means anywhere close to as good as the f22
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clueless, clueless, clueless.
I see dumb people.

F-22, Unclassified Data
F-35, Unclassified Data

Please clarify exactly where I went wrong.

 

[carage]

Seriously I see the nuke as a very viable option for both Taiwan and US.
US doesn't even have to admit they gave Taiwan the nuke.
Almost everyone in Taiwan heard the story about how US forced Taiwan to abort its nuclear development in the 80s, now let's just say the plan continued in secret, who would know the difference and what difference does it make in reality? Truth is Taiwan has a nuke, it is too late to stop them. US can even throw a lame ass press conference to cover it up and say something like it is regretabble that Taiwan has chosen this path and deny involvement, sort of like Israel style. If US actually likes to help Taiwan, it can then add that while US regrets Taiwan's decision, it also acknowledges Taiwan's right to defend itself and self-determination. That would be a big diplomatic win for Taiwan by any accounts.
Allowing Taiwan to get a nuke does not hurt US interest either, in fact it helps US interest, because China would be more reluctant to change the status quo by attacking Taiwan. Nuclear deterrance works by not ever actually using it. If Taiwan gets a nuke, it doesn't mean it would stop buying conventional arms from the US (or paying protection fee in that matter), simply because the nuke is just there for a showing. Wars are still won by conventional weapons. The nuke is just the anvil in the end that says buddy, if you push me too far I can at least chop off one of your arms if not blowing your brains out.

 

[CaptnKirk]

The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter.
The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

the f35 is designed to be a cheap plane to build (replacement for the f-16 and F-18)
it has no stealth also. granted it will still go toe to toe with most planes out thier it is by no means anywhere close to as good as the f22
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Superiority Fighter - Inteceptor, stand-off to destroy incoming Bombers or Penetration.
Minimal role as a 'Dog-Fighter', but able to take down the escort planes before they arrive
to protect the second wave of aircraft. They (Bad Guys) won't waste the effort to send
Fighter Escorts and Bombers, Sub-Based Missles can get in before we can get the F-22's
airborne, 'Over-the-Pole' ICBM's would be on the ground and F-22's can't do anything about it.

The F-35 is a slated replacement for 10 different aircraft, to name a few: F-16's, F/A-18's,
F-14's. AV-8B's, A-10's, they are presently being presented in 3 configurations, Conventional,
Carrier Based, and STOL (Jump-Jet) - with a 4th Variant in the works.

The engine for the JSF is a derivative of the engine used in the F-22. (Including the SuperCruise)
Included in the future after the cost comes down a bit, F-22 uses 2, F-35 uses 1.

It also has 'Stealth' configuration in the airframe design, materials, and coatings.
When seen side by side the F-22 looks like the packing crate that goes around the F-35.
It is kind of like a 5/8 Upscale/Downscale of the vehicle packaging envelope.
F-22 is 62' in length with a 44.5' wingspan.
F-35 is 45' in length with a 36' wingspan.
That's 17' length difference (single seat for JSF) and only 8.5' wingspan diference (4'3" per side)

The F-35 may actually be a better 'Stealth' platform, as it is not (as of yet) being configured to
carry external weaponry - like the external payloads for the F-22.
There is also commonality to the avionics and electro-optical packaages,
just stuffed into smaller boxes in a extreme packaging constrained envelope.

I'll retract the following:
Clueless, clueless, clueless.
I see dumb people

It's not fair when I can walk out and count tail numbers on the floor.
Changes are happening faster than the data tables to the public are being updated.

A more appropriate statement would be 'Currently Technologically Misinformed'.
But . . . It'll change tomorrow.

F-22 Vehicle # 24 Made it's first flight last week, with a Afterburner Take-off,
Vehicle # 42 just went to the flight line from Final Assy.
14 Aircraft remain in Flight Test, since units # 1 & # 4 have been retired.

Still working on F-35 Vechicle # 1 - we've got another couple years before flight.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter.
The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

the f35 is designed to be a cheap plane to build (replacement for the f-16 and F-18)
it has no stealth also. granted it will still go toe to toe with most planes out thier it is by no means anywhere close to as good as the f22
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Superiority Fighter - Inteceptor, stand-off to destroy incoming Bombers or Penetration.
Minimal role as a 'Dog-Fighter', but able to take down the escort planes before they arrive
to protect the second wave of aircraft. They (Bad Guys) won't waste the effort to send
Fighter Escorts and Bombers, Sub-Based Missles can get in before we can get the F-22's
airborne, 'Over-the-Pole' ICBM's would be on the ground and F-22's can't do anything about it.

The F-35 is a slated replacement for 10 different aircraft, to name a few: F-16's, F/A-18's,
F-14's. AV-8B's, A-10's, they are presently being presented in 3 configurations, Conventional,
Carrier Based, and STOL (Jump-Jet) - with a 4th Variant in the works.

The engine for the JSF is a derivative of the engine used in the F-22. (Including the SuperCruise)
Included in the future after the cost comes down a bit, F-22 uses 2, F-35 uses 1.

It also has 'Stealth' configuration in the airframe design, materials, and coatings.
When seen side by side the F-22 looks like the packing crate that goes around the F-35.
It is kind of like a 5/8 Upscale/Downscale of the vehicle packaging envelope.
F-22 is 62' in length with a 44.5' wingspan.
F-35 is 45' in length with a 36' wingspan.
That's 17' length difference (single seat for JSF) and only 8.5' wingspan diference (4'3" per side)

The F-35 may actually be a better 'Stealth' platform, as it is not (as of yet) being configured to
carry external weaponry - like the external payloads for the F-22.
There is also commonality to the avionics and electro-optical packaages,
just stuffed into smaller boxes in a extreme packaging constrained envelope.

I'll retract the following:
Clueless, clueless, clueless.
I see dumb people

It's not fair when I can walk out and count tail numbers on the floor.
Changes are happening faster than the data tables to the public are being updated.

A more appropriate statement would be 'Currently Technologically Misinformed'.
But . . . It'll change tomorrow.

Thanks for replying.

I based my post of:

The F/A-22 is an air dominance fighter.
The F-35 is primarily a replacement for ground attack aircraft.

Also, the F-35 has no supercruise ability.

on the configuration of the F-22 that appears to me mainly geared for air-to-air combat. I do realise that they can carry JDAMs as well for air-to-ground but I never really thought that it would be their primary role.

I should have called the F-35 a multi-role aircraft, which it is. I was also not aware they were planning on adding supercruise to it.

I always welcome additional insight/criticism on these topics as I am well aware that there are other people out in the world who do this for a living and consequently know far more than I.

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: carage
Seriously I see the nuke as a very viable option for both Taiwan and US.
US doesn't even have to admit they gave Taiwan the nuke.
Almost everyone in Taiwan heard the story about how US forced Taiwan to abort its nuclear development in the 80s, now let's just say the plan continued in secret, who would know the difference and what difference does it make in reality? Truth is Taiwan has a nuke, it is too late to stop them. US can even throw a lame ass press conference to cover it up and say something like it is regretabble that Taiwan has chosen this path and deny involvement, sort of like Israel style. If US actually likes to help Taiwan, it can then add that while US regrets Taiwan's decision, it also acknowledges Taiwan's right to defend itself and self-determination. That would be a big diplomatic win for Taiwan by any accounts.
Allowing Taiwan to get a nuke does not hurt US interest either, in fact it helps US interest, because China would be more reluctant to change the status quo by attacking Taiwan. Nuclear deterrance works by not ever actually using it. If Taiwan gets a nuke, it doesn't mean it would stop buying conventional arms from the US (or paying protection fee in that matter), simply because the nuke is just there for a showing. Wars are still won by conventional weapons. The nuke is just the anvil in the end that says buddy, if you push me too far I can at least chop off one of your arms if not blowing your brains out.

this is exactly how I see it also. what I would do is since taiwan has acess to nuclear matriels (they have 3 reators) just give them the parts to build thier own bomb and let them supply the plutonium or uranium so if they ever do use it it can't be tracked back to us

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy

Originally posted by: carage
Seriously I see the nuke as a very viable option for both Taiwan and US.
US doesn't even have to admit they gave Taiwan the nuke.
Almost everyone in Taiwan heard the story about how US forced Taiwan to abort its nuclear development in the 80s, now let's just say the plan continued in secret, who would know the difference and what difference does it make in reality? Truth is Taiwan has a nuke, it is too late to stop them. US can even throw a lame ass press conference to cover it up and say something like it is regretabble that Taiwan has chosen this path and deny involvement, sort of like Israel style. If US actually likes to help Taiwan, it can then add that while US regrets Taiwan's decision, it also acknowledges Taiwan's right to defend itself and self-determination. That would be a big diplomatic win for Taiwan by any accounts.
Allowing Taiwan to get a nuke does not hurt US interest either, in fact it helps US interest, because China would be more reluctant to change the status quo by attacking Taiwan. Nuclear deterrance works by not ever actually using it. If Taiwan gets a nuke, it doesn't mean it would stop buying conventional arms from the US (or paying protection fee in that matter), simply because the nuke is just there for a showing. Wars are still won by conventional weapons. The nuke is just the anvil in the end that says buddy, if you push me too far I can at least chop off one of your arms if not blowing your brains out.

this is exactly how I see it also. what I would do is since taiwan has acess to nuclear matriels (they have 3 reators) just give them the parts to build thier own bomb and let them supply the plutonium or uranium so if they ever do use it it can't be tracked back to us

Getting the enriched Uranium/Plutonium is the hardest part. A gun type bomb made of HEU would be very easy for Taiwan to build.

 

[bigj3347]

I think what I'm about to say is something that a lot of people think but do not want to say.

For the sake of this argument, let's say Taiwan acquires a nuclear warhead and China knows about it. Taiwan, in all it's wisdom, then decides to declare its independence from the mainland. China, in its attempt to save face, attacks knowing that if push comes to shove, Taiwan will launch the nuke. Taiwan launchs and hits Shanghai, the economic capital of China, and China's economy suffers a severe setback. The only countries that stand to gain from all this is the United States and Japan. With China's economy crippled, the United States will once again be the only world super power and Japan will once again dominate the asian market.

I don't know if anybody agrees with me but I think/hope that both China and Taiwan realize and understand this. With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Which is once again, why I'm so frustrated with President Chen's political rhetoric. No matter how he wants to slice it, we're all of Chinese descent. Chen is almost Hitleresque in his description of 'Chinese oppression'. He is the ultimate demagogue. How does he not realize what Taiwan stands to gain from a working relationship with China?

My family, starting with my grandparents, shed sweat, blood and tears for the Republic of China. My grandfather battled the communists as a general under Chiang Kai-Shek. The situation in Taiwan has deteriorated to the point where my parents have lost all hope for Taiwan. Not only do they not oppose, they're almost for Chinese aggression against President Chen and his supporters who idiotically push for independence. They feel like President Chen is pushing the country they gew up in to the edge of destruction.

Now, lets assume Taiwan declares independence and somehow manages to win the war that ensues. What then? Does President Chen honestly believe that countries are then going to establish international alliances with Taiwan and run the risk of pissing off the world's second most powerful country? The US can't establish diplomatic ties with Taiwan if it still wants to keep its diplomatic ties with China. China will never acknowledge Taiwan and an independent country, they will continually deny Taiwan's request to be part of the United Nations. They will continually pressure all other countries to do the same. With it's economic leverage on these countries, it'll be more of the same as far as Taiwan is considered. So what does all this independence rhetoric accomplish? Absolutely nothing, all it does is create death and destruction.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: bigj3347
I think what I'm about to say is something that a lot of people think but do not want to say.

For the sake of this argument, let's say Taiwan acquires a nuclear warhead and China knows about it. Taiwan, in all it's wisdom, then decides to declare its independence from the mainland. China, in its attempt to save face, attacks knowing that if push comes to shove, Taiwan will launch the nuke. Taiwan launchs and hits Shanghai, the economic capital of China, and China's economy suffers a severe setback. The only countries that stand to gain from all this is the United States and Japan. With China's economy crippled, the United States will once again be the only world super power and Japan will once again dominate the asian market.

I don't know if anybody agrees with me but I think/hope that both China and Taiwan realize and understand this. With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Which is once again, why I'm so frustrated with President Chen's political rhetoric. No matter how he wants to slice it, we're all of Chinese descent. Chen is almost Hitleresque in his description of 'Chinese oppression'. He is the ultimate demagogue. How does he not realize what Taiwan stands to gain from a working relationship with China?

My family, starting with my grandparents, shed sweat, blood and tears for the Republic of China. My grandfather battled the communists as a general under Chiang Kai-Shek. The situation in Taiwan has deteriorated to the point where my parents have lost all hope for Taiwan. Not only do they not oppose, they're almost for Chinese aggression against President Chen and his supporters who idiotically push for independence. They feel like President Chen is pushing the country they gew up in to the edge of destruction.

Now, lets assume Taiwan declares independence and somehow manages to win the war that ensues. What then? Does President Chen honestly believe that countries are then going to establish international alliances with Taiwan and run the risk of pissing off the world's second most powerful country? The US can't establish diplomatic ties with Taiwan if it still wants to keep its diplomatic ties with China. China will never acknowledge Taiwan and an independent country, they will continually deny Taiwan's request to be part of the United Nations. They will continually pressure all other countries to do the same. With it's economic leverage on these countries, it'll be more of the same as far as Taiwan is considered. So what does all this independence rhetoric accomplish? Absolutely nothing, all it does is create death and destruction.

First of all, I should say it seems like we have really similar family backgrounds. My grandfather was a KMT general too and hates commies to the guts. The only thing he regrets in his life is that no one decided that all they need to do is to set fire on Yangan when they could. My family is kind of divided on the independence issue though. My dad's family seem to more or less resemble your family which they have lost hope for Taiwan, and most of them have chosen to immigrate to US. My mom's family is different, they are local Taiwanese, not necessarily pro independent, but more of the grass root anti-China for sure.
I guess you can imagine what it is like being caught inbetween arguments when it comes to election time.

Back to the old question. The idea of the acquired nuclear deterrance is not to use it. Perhaps you feel Chen the Hitler idolizer would go do some stupid things once he get the nuke. I certainly hope not, but maybe he will. I hope he is smart enough. My analysis is based on what sustained the Cold War, the fact that no one was crazy enough to trigger MAD. In the worst case scenario, the ultimate benefactors would be EU, and maybe Russia if they choose not to side with anyone. If America and Japan is seen as an enemy by China anyway, when it goes nuclear what is to say US and Japan will not be in trouble?

The strategy is even with the new nuclear abilities, the status quo must continue, and US must tell him that firmly. If he ever gets out of control there should be ways to keep him in check, the two bullets story and how did Mrs. Lee manage to carry 80 million dollars into US is worth a spin, or in the worst case scenario I wouldn't mind if CIA took care of him and Ms. Lu too, which in my opinion would be even worse as a president. I just hope the independent-seeking airheads won't start thinking that they can piss off the world as long because they have joined the nuclear club.

 

[RabidMongoose]

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

Taiwan's hightech industry is mostly OEM, design is done by the clients themselves.
TSMC + UMC create more than 50% of the world's semiconductors, but if other fabs become available it doesn't mean orders won't switch elsewhere.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

Taiwan's hightech industry is mostly OEM, design is done by the clients themselves.
TSMC + UMC create more than 50% of the world's semiconductors, but if other fabs become available it doesn't mean orders won't switch elsewhere.

Yup. Taiwan mainly manufactures/fabricates. It is not as heavily involved in the actual design and research, which is where the real 'high tech industry' is. Even much of the equipment they use in their own fabs are designed elsewhere.

 

[Falloutboy]

also I see no problem selling japan these planes if we sell them to them at just a bit more than we pay for them it will be over 10 billion dollars put into our economy

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
also I see no problem selling japan these planes if we sell them to them at just a bit more than we pay for them it will be over 10 billion dollars put into our economy

I sure don't mind making a profit from these, Japan can afford it anyway.

 

[bigj3347]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

Taiwan's hightech industry is mostly OEM, design is done by the clients themselves.
TSMC + UMC create more than 50% of the world's semiconductors, but if other fabs become available it doesn't mean orders won't switch elsewhere.

Yup. Taiwan mainly manufactures/fabricates. It is not as heavily involved in the actual design and research, which is where the real 'high tech industry' is. Even much of the equipment they use in their own fabs are designed elsewhere.

I worked for ECS a couple summers ago. The trend, at least amongst the motherboard manufacturers is that all the middle-lower end motherboards are outsourced to their factories in China while all the high end motherboards are manufactured in Taiwan. I would assume this applies to most, if not all of the electronic equipment manufacturers in Taiwan. Asus, Gigabyte, Shuttle, ECS etc. . . I know it's just a movie but in Armageddon, the Russian cosmonaut had a realyl funny line.
"American components, Russion components .. ALL made in Taiwan!"
The annual computer expo held in Taipei is one where the world wide high tech industry looks to as far as technology and gadgets are concerned.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: bigj3347

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

Taiwan's hightech industry is mostly OEM, design is done by the clients themselves.
TSMC + UMC create more than 50% of the world's semiconductors, but if other fabs become available it doesn't mean orders won't switch elsewhere.

Yup. Taiwan mainly manufactures/fabricates. It is not as heavily involved in the actual design and research, which is where the real 'high tech industry' is. Even much of the equipment they use in their own fabs are designed elsewhere.

I worked for ECS a couple summers ago. The trend, at least amongst the motherboard manufacturers is that all the middle-lower end motherboards are outsourced to their factories in China while all the high end motherboards are manufactured in Taiwan. I would assume this applies to most, if not all of the electronic equipment manufacturers in Taiwan. Asus, Gigabyte, Shuttle, ECS etc. . . I know it's just a movie but in Armageddon, the Russian cosmonaut had a realyl funny line.
"American components, Russion components .. ALL made in Taiwan!"
The annual computer expo held in Taipei is one where the world wide high tech industry looks to as far as technology and gadgets are concerned.

Yeah, but this still doesn't mean that Taiwan leads the world's high tech industry. If someone is under the belief that Taiwan itself is more important to the high tech industry than the US, Japan, etc. simply for the reason that it manufactures/fabricates a good deal of electronic equipment, then I'm not sure what else to say. I place a higher priority on the actual design, research, etc. than the manufacturing.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: bigj3347

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

With Taiwan's high tech industry leading the world and China's manufacturing prowess, the Chinese will dominate the international high tech marketplace. That is, of course, if they can put aside their petty dfferences.

Taiwan doesn't lead the world's high tech industry. Aren't they mainly involved in manufacturing? I believe a large portion of the actual design is done elsewhere.

Taiwan's hightech industry is mostly OEM, design is done by the clients themselves.
TSMC + UMC create more than 50% of the world's semiconductors, but if other fabs become available it doesn't mean orders won't switch elsewhere.

Yup. Taiwan mainly manufactures/fabricates. It is not as heavily involved in the actual design and research, which is where the real 'high tech industry' is. Even much of the equipment they use in their own fabs are designed elsewhere.

I worked for ECS a couple summers ago. The trend, at least amongst the motherboard manufacturers is that all the middle-lower end motherboards are outsourced to their factories in China while all the high end motherboards are manufactured in Taiwan. I would assume this applies to most, if not all of the electronic equipment manufacturers in Taiwan. Asus, Gigabyte, Shuttle, ECS etc. . . I know it's just a movie but in Armageddon, the Russian cosmonaut had a realyl funny line.
"American components, Russion components .. ALL made in Taiwan!"
The annual computer expo held in Taipei is one where the world wide high tech industry looks to as far as technology and gadgets are concerned.

Same applies to Acer, Quanta, and Honghai Precision.
I worked for SMIC, usually labeled a tratior in Taiwanese media, during the summer.
Armaggeddon is ok, at least its not as bad as one of the 80s movies that showcased an umbrella that broke or the ending of Bowfinger. Though I thought the fake purse ninja thing was actually funny before I realized how bad it meant.
I heard you can find another segment in The Cat in the Hat, which showcases a 30 second clip of Taiwanese legislative brawl on the TV news the kids were watching.
Back to the motherboards, I am not sure if you have noticed, but while most of the really highend stuff is still made in Taiwan, they are usually immediately exported to US or Japan, so it is hard to find really top of the line boards or videocards in Taiwan.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Yeah, but this still doesn't mean that Taiwan leads the world's high tech industry. If someone is under the belief that Taiwan itself is more important to the high tech industry than the US, Japan, etc. simply for the reason that it manufactures/fabricates a good deal of electronic equipment, then I'm not sure what else to say. I place a higher priority on the actual design, research, etc. than the manufacturing.

It certainly can't be more important than the creators of the technologies, but it is still somewhat important at least in the short run where no immediate replacement is available. I remember when the 9/21 earthquake hit Taiwan, the world PC market was disrupted for about a month. There were shortages from capicators to motherboards.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: carage

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Yeah, but this still doesn't mean that Taiwan leads the world's high tech industry. If someone is under the belief that Taiwan itself is more important to the high tech industry than the US, Japan, etc. simply for the reason that it manufactures/fabricates a good deal of electronic equipment, then I'm not sure what else to say. I place a higher priority on the actual design, research, etc. than the manufacturing.

It certainly can't be more important than the creators of the technologies, but it is still somewhat important at least in the short run where no immediate replacement is available. I remember when the 9/21 earthquake hit Taiwan, the world PC market was disrupted for about a month. There were shortages from capicators to motherboards.

Oh, it's definitely important in the short run. Taiwan is important in this industry - I'm just stating that I definitely wouldn't call it the leader of the world's high tech industry. I mean it really doesn't do as much innovation or research to claim that title for me.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose


Oh, it's definitely important in the short run. Taiwan is important in this industry - I'm just stating that I definitely wouldn't call it the leader of the world's high tech industry. I mean it really doesn't do as much innovation or research to claim that title for me.

That is an issue I always worry about.
Sooner or later when China catches up, Taiwan won't get any OEM orders even for highend parts.

 

[bigj3347]

Regardless of whether or not Taiwan is the leader or manufacturer, my original point was that if Taiwan and China were able to join forces, their manufacturing ability will definitely be something the high tech industry can ill afford to lose. Imagine if they were working with each other instead of against each other.

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: bigj3347
Regardless of whether or not Taiwan is the leader or manufacturer, my original point was that if Taiwan and China were able to join forces, their manufacturing ability will definitely be something the high tech industry can ill afford to lose. Imagine if they were working with each other instead of against each other.

True. I am absolutely all for economic integration and cooperation.
Heck, my house in Taipei is only 5 minutes from TPE-SS, I really look forward to the day where I can get from my house in Shanghai to my house in Taipei in 90 minutes which is about right considering the straightline distance.
However, if China plans to force its political system or that five star flag over Taiwan, then I am all for a war.
Given the low accuracy of Chinese missiles, chances are my house in Taipei will be blown to bits in the first missile strike.