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Jailed for having a home Bible study?

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C'mon, is anyone surprised? This is Arizona, the Show Me Your Papers State.
Once fascists are in charge your freedoms are gone.
 
cybrsage said:
Creating a disturbance. You would need to ensure your neighbors were in your bar with you, else the noise and parking problems would be called into the police. They could then cite you with many habitation violations, to be sure.
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The nuisance issues make complete sense to me, I have no problem with the city enforcing those either. But that's not what they did in this case, and that's not why the guy is going to jail. He's going to jail because of code violations. If he had buddies over to watch the ballgame -- even in the exact same structure -- there would not have been the same violation. However, because the nature of what they were doing was religious, the city considered the structure a church, thus triggering a host of codes, of which he was in violation. That makes no sense to me. What they were doing (reading a book, playing poker or watching TV) should not have any influence on the codes IMO.

The core issue should be safety and nuisance to the neighborhood, neither of which change based on whether the guy's friends were reading a book or watching a game. If having 40 people in there reading the Bible poses a safety hazard, then having the same number of people in there playing poker is the same safety hazard and should be regulated the same way. That doesn't seem to be the case though.
 
A simple photo of the building and property would resolve the online debate on this in like 4 seconds. The state of the media today is abysmal.
 
The controversy erupted in 2009 when nearly a dozen police officers raided the Salman’s home and a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. The family had moved their Bible study into the building after the group outgrew their living room.
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They really needed a dozen cops and had to "raid" the place???? Seriously? How about one cop knocking on the damn door? Its a freaking bible study group for christs sake.
 
CharlesKozierok said:
Yep. I was with the victim here until I read about the separate 2,000 sf building. Furthermore:



Of course Christians will ignore the salient facts and play the "religious discrimination" card as they always do.
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Shrug, does he pay property taxes on the building and property? If so I wouldn't call it a church, I would call it a building on someones property. If they are indeed taxing him on it then the .gov doesn't see it as a church either.
 
CharlesKozierok said:
This isn't someone having people over to their home. It's someone having people over to a de facto church.

If you build a 2,000 sf building with a big-screen TV in it, a bar, chairs for 40 people, and you have people over to watch football in it three times a week, you'd have the same problem.
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Why would I have the same problem? I can't build something on my property for me and my buddies to get together? Granted, if I started selling beer or something then you might have a point but whats the difference if its in the living room or another building on the property?

What if there is already a barn on the property and I converted that into a hangout, is that ok? What if I don't convert it into anything and just use it as a hangout, that must be ok right?
 
Darwin333 said:
Why would I have the same problem? I can't build something on my property for me and my buddies to get together? Granted, if I started selling beer or something then you might have a point but whats the difference if its in the living room or another building on the property?

What if there is already a barn on the property and I converted that into a hangout, is that ok? What if I don't convert it into anything and just use it as a hangout, that must be ok right?
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Actually you generally can't build something on your property without a proper permit and adhering to zoning. Most cities have regulations out the ass on what you can do on your own property. The more urban the area, the more regulations.

Also I would assume (though maybe I'm wrong) that the raid didn't occur as the initial response. Something that violates zoning laws like this would get a warning or fine initially and an order to cease and desist. Only if the cease and desist order was ignore would that normally get a more serious response like this.
 
thraashman said:
Actually you generally can't build something on your property without a proper permit and adhering to zoning. Most cities have regulations out the ass on what you can do on your own property. The more urban the area, the more regulations.

Also I would assume (though maybe I'm wrong) that the raid didn't occur as the initial response. Something that violates zoning laws like this would get a warning or fine initially and an order to cease and desist. Only if the cease and desist order was ignore would that normally get a more serious response like this.
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From what I understand they had got building permits, and if they had been doing anything other than religious activities they would have been fine, but since they were conducting religious activities they got busted. I agree with Pokerguy that it is bullshit that if they were sitting around playing poker and drinking there would have been no problem, but since they were praying they got busted. Either it is ok to have a group over, or it's not, but they can't say "Oh, you can do this, but if you pray you're a church and are getting busted", that's bullshit. And I am an atheist.
 
A bible study? wtf does he need a 2k sq/ft building for bible study?

he built a church. that is against the zoning laws. i can understand why people are upset.

no sympathy found for the guy..
 
These people were cheating law that they are bound to. Its that simple.
Bible study what a joke. I offer a link I won't go into it myself/ but listen and try to understand. What is this all about reality wise in so far as the spiritual. THE one and only promise God made to man . Was to Adam. That God would restore adam to eden in 5 1/2 days. That would be 5,500 years. Right around now . God made NO promise to the Hebrew people . They are liars.

I not asking you to believe anything . I just want you to think . There are many links you can view from this link . You only have to understand Lilith was right. So Who is returning from heaven Lilith or Adam. Lilith is. Adam had to live many lives to learn his lesson and the GROOM has been made ready for the BRIDE that comes down from Heavens height. The Bible says just the other way around, Food for thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhr2p1AnuA
 
thraashman said:
Actually you generally can't build something on your property without a proper permit and adhering to zoning. Most cities have regulations out the ass on what you can do on your own property. The more urban the area, the more regulations.
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Exactly. That's all that is really going on here.

But some people will bend over backwards to make themselves out to be "persecuted" "victims". I wouldn't be surprised if this guy manufactured this entire situation just to get attention.

If one doesn't like the zoning laws, there are two options: work within the system to change them, or move somewhere with less restrictive zoning laws. Not on the list of options is thumbing your nose at the laws and then whining when you have to face the consequences.
 
nehalem256 said:
I think you failed to make it clear that people paid for the beers.

If there was no exchange of money for beer it would be hard to argue it was a bar.
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No money needs to be exchanged to be a bar. I can join a club and then get free drinks in their offsite bar, for example.
 
Nemesis 1 said:
God made NO promise to the Hebrew people . They are liars.
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Not quite true:

דְּבָרִים יא
יג וְהָיָה, אִם-שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל-מִצְו*ֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, הַיּוֹם--לְאַהֲבָה אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, וּלְעָבְדוֹ, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם, וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם.
יד וְנָתַתִּי מְטַר-אַרְצְכֶם בְּעִתּוֹ, יוֹרֶה וּמַלְקוֹשׁ; וְאָסַפְתָּ דְגָנֶךָ, וְתִירֹשְׁךָ וְיִצְהָרֶךָ
טו וְנָתַתִּי עֵשֶׂב בְּשָׂדְךָ, לִבְהֶמְתֶּךָ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, וְשָׂבָעְתָּ.

Deuteronomy 11
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 that I will give the rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will give grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.

Sounds like a promise to me...unless you think God was lying when he said "if you do that then I will do this".
 
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Oh stop with the war on religion bullshit. If the same guy with the same amount of people on the same schedule was having guys oogle girls in see-thru lengiere the city would have the same problem
 
CharlesKozierok said:
Exactly. That's all that is really going on here.

But some people will bend over backwards to make themselves out to be "persecuted" "victims". I wouldn't be surprised if this guy manufactured this entire situation just to get attention.

If one doesn't like the zoning laws, there are two options: work within the system to change them, or move somewhere with less restrictive zoning laws. Not on the list of options is thumbing your nose at the laws and then whining when you have to face the consequences.
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I get the impression from some of the posters comments that they've never lived in an urban/semi urban/suburban area with tight zoning rules. From the satellite shot of the lot it's probably not even a acre.
I'd be damn if I would put up with a neighbor essentially having a beer bash every weekend with 20 plus cars parked on the street.

If you got some acreage, I don't see a problem.
 
cybrsage said:
Not quite true:

דְּבָרִים יא
יג וְהָיָה, אִם-שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל-מִצְו*ֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, הַיּוֹם--לְאַהֲבָה אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, וּלְעָבְדוֹ, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם, וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם.
יד וְנָתַתִּי מְטַר-אַרְצְכֶם בְּעִתּוֹ, יוֹרֶה וּמַלְקוֹשׁ; וְאָסַפְתָּ דְגָנֶךָ, וְתִירֹשְׁךָ וְיִצְהָרֶךָ
טו וְנָתַתִּי עֵשֶׂב בְּשָׂדְךָ, לִבְהֶמְתֶּךָ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, וְשָׂבָעְתָּ.

Deuteronomy 11
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 that I will give the rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will give grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.

Sounds like a promise to me...unless you think God was lying when he said "if you do that then I will do this".
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What makes these words true. Did God say them to you. Or was it a man a prophet who said God spoke to him and all others take his words on Faith. BS. If God wants me to do something than God would tell me . God would not just tell 1 man but all men for God is just and fair . Lies from liars is all that you linked . Moses wasn't choozen . Moses after learning he would not be leading egypt lead a revolt in times much like we are experiancing now. The Right man born at the right time to take advantage of events and labeling it the work of the hebrew god
 
Nemesis 1 said:
What makes these words true. Did God say them to you. Or was it a man a prophet who said God spoke to him and all others take his words on Faith. BS. If God wants me to do something than God would tell me . God would not just tell 1 man but all men for God is just and fair . Lies from liars is all that you linked . Moses wasn't choozen . Moses after learning he would not be leading egypt lead a revolt in times much like we are experiancing now. The Right man born at the right time to take advantage of events and labeling it the work of the hebrew god
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I made the assumption that if you believe there was a promise made in Genesis, you would believe both that God exists and that He spoke to people. With this in mind, if you would also believe Deuteronomy as well.

It appears you believe God talked to Adam but that He did not talk to Moses and therefor the only true Bible book is Genesis. Is this correct?
 
cybrsage said:
Actually he dissolved the chich in 2009.

07/01/2009 DISSOLUTION


They should just meet in the park a few hundred feet from his home.
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Yep, he dissolved the corporation after his zoning dispute with the city was underway. Michael Salman has had years to correct the defects in his church building.
 
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