Jailed for having a home Bible study?

[MomentsofSanity]

A little back story from 2008 to put this zealot into perspective.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008...-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/

 

[PokerGuy]

If the same guy with the same amount of people on the same schedule was having guys oogle girls in see-thru lengiere the city would have the same problem

Actually, no. That's kind of the point. If it was the same building and guys hanging out, drinking or whatever else they wanted to do (not including commercial activity since that's treated differently), there's probably very little the city could do about it. The reason the city was able to go after him is because they defined the location as a church based on his activity, which then forces him to adhere to all the codes needed for a church in that zoning area.

I have no problem with the zoning, no problem with ordinances to fight nuisance (heck, I would be royally ticked off if one of my neighbors caused traffic mess all the time etc). My beef is with the fact that it looks like the city is treating things differently because they are engaged in religious activity. if they were doing anything else they'd be fine.

 

[her209]

Something similar happened in Chula Vista, CA.

 

[Nintendesert]

I wouldn't want anyone building a church in their backyard either. He can claim whatever he wants but his track record says it's a church and operates as one. He's not a victim, he's a crook and a liar. GJ Pastor, nice example to set.

 

[Darwin333]

Had he not built the extra building, I would side with him. But he built a church and now is complaining that he violates the ordinances covering it.

EDIT: As pokerguy said, it is not a problem unless you turn into a nuisance. I assume he is bothering his neighbors, which is why one of them called.

I saw nothing in the article that said he was charged or fined for building a structure without a permit so I am going to assume, for now, that the city granted him permission to build the structure and I am also going to assume that the structure is included in his property taxes.

 

[Darwin333]

Actually you generally can't build something on your property without a proper permit and adhering to zoning. Most cities have regulations out the ass on what you can do on your own property. The more urban the area, the more regulations.

I didn't read anything that said he didn't have a permit to build though

 

[PokerGuy]

A little back story from 2008 to put this zealot into perspective.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008...-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/

The guy sounds like the kind of nightmare jackass everyone hopes to avoid in their neighborhood. I certainly wouldn't want him in mine.

A complete nutcase.

 

[IronWing]

He registered a corporate entity at that address. That isn't the same as saying the house is a church.

True. However when one reads the articles of corporation for Mr. Salman's enterprise one finds:

Name of the Corporation: HARVEST CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP COMMUNITY CHURCH
Purpose: The advancement of Religious Beliefs and exercise
Character of Affairs: Teach and help people in need by advancement of Religious Beliefs
Known Place of Business: Lists the street address of the building that is inconceivably a church

 

[PokerGuy]

He can claim whatever he wants but his track record says it's a church and operates as one.

So if I play poker with some buddies regularly in the property behind my house that makes it a casino?

The guy is a complete loon and I certainly wouldn't want him around. That said, I do have an issue with the city treating the matter differently based strictly on the activity of the people at that location (religious versus non religious). If that's not the case, then I have no problem with it.

 

[Darwin333]

Here is the house, church building immediately behind house. The out building further to the east is not the church.

Looks like Mr. Salman thinks his house is a church. Oops.

Yup, its a church then and being a church he has to follow the regulations any other church would.

 

[PokerGuy]

True. However when one reads the articles of corporation for Mr. Salman's enterprise one finds:

Name of the Corporation: HARVEST CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP COMMUNITY CHURCH
Purpose: The advancement of Religious Beliefs and exercise
Character of Affairs: Teach and help people in need by advancement of Religious Beliefs
Known Place of Business: Lists the street address of the building that is inconceivably a church

That doesn't mean he thinks the house is a church. Even if he had not built that additional property, he would have filed the incorporation papers the same way.

 

[Darwin333]

So if I play poker with some buddies regularly in the property behind my house that makes it a casino?

The guy is a complete loon and I certainly wouldn't want him around. That said, I do have an issue with the city treating the matter differently based strictly on the activity of the people at that location (religious versus non religious). If that's not the case, then I have no problem with it.

If you file your taxes and take a loss on operating a casino or bar or whatever in said building on said property that you claim is operating for commercial purposes, yes you would be treated the same and would have to follow all applicable laws and regulations.

 

[PokerGuy]

If you file your taxes and take a loss on operating a casino or bar or whatever in said building on said property that you claim is operating for commercial purposes, yes you would be treated the same and would have to follow all applicable laws and regulations.

What indication is there of commercial activity? None that I know of. If the guy had not built the additional property, and just had 10 people over at his house, would his house then have been classified as a church? What about 5 friends? What is the magical number?

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Isnt the title of this thread a little misleading? The bible study was in the 2000 sqft building behind his home. Which was most definitely not a church, because it is common for people to have 2000 sqft structures in their backyard ^_^

There's a house down the street from me that is maybe 1200 sq feet. He has a 2 story, barn/workshop/meeting den in his backyard that is twice the size of the house. They even have an electronic gate around the building.

If all the vehicles of attendees are parked on his property, I don't think the city should have any say in what he does on his property as long as they aren't sacrificing anyone.
When he gets out of jail, he should claim his property as a church and take all the tax deductions that come along with it and screw the city out of tax revenue.

edit: to add. Wouldn't the city saying this is a church and thus jailing him for it being a church constitute a violation of his rights under the Arizona Constitution?
The following ordinance shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this state:


First. Toleration of religious sentiment

First. Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured to every inhabitant of this state, and no inhabitant of this state shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship, or lack of the same.

The city specifically targeted him because of it being a Church.

 

[Darwin333]

That doesn't mean he thinks the house is a church. Even if he had not built that additional property, he would have filed the incorporation papers the same way.

So he calls it a church, the .gov recognizes it as a church and gives him special tax breaks due to it being a church, he has large groups of people over to study the bible........ but its not a church?

 

[Darwin333]

What indication is there of commercial activity? None that I know of. If the guy had not built the additional property, and just had 10 people over at his house, would his house then have been classified as a church? What about 5 friends? What is the magical number?

There is no magical number, he claimed the building as a church for tax purposes and is now using the building in a way that one would use a church.

Edit: And the indication of the commercial activity would be your incorporation papers and tax filings.

 

[Smoblikat]

Come on. This is not a poker night at the card table in the den, this is a church on residential property.

So why does the government have to step in and say that he cant do it? Because he doesnt have lights, or ramps for people who arent crippled? He shouldnt have to put up with their BS regulations if noone needs them, his land his rules.

 

[Kadarin]

This is a guy who has absolutely no consideration whatsoever for his neighbors. How very Christian of him...

 

[PokerGuy]

There is no magical number, he claimed the building as a church for tax purposes and is now using the building in a way that one would use a church.

Where is there any information that says "he claimed the building as a church for tax purposes"? Creating a corporate entity has nothing to do with "claiming" anything for tax purposes.

Edit: And the indication of the commercial activity would be your incorporation papers and tax filings.

Incorporating (creating a corporate entity) is absolutely no proof of any commercial activity. I haven't seen his tax filings, but I haven't seen anything in any article about commercial activity at all.

 

[zinfamous]

lol. violation of religious freedom not found.

would the local Christians be all upset if some neighbor expanded his Thursday night buddy get-together of drinking and poker into 2000 sf building, also violating fire code and proper licensing for hosting x number of people?


Bible study my fucking ass.

 

[zinfamous]

So why does the government have to step in and say that he cant do it? Because he doesnt have lights, or ramps for people who arent crippled? He shouldnt have to put up with their BS regulations if noone needs them, his land his rules.

When hosting a particular number of people, he has to be within proper zoning, with proper licensing.

"His land his rules" is well....a myth. And properly so due to several examples--such as this one.

 

[zinfamous]

Would Arizona Christians be claiming violation of religious freedom if this were a muslim man that was packing a 2000 sqft barn in his back yard with daily prayers and Islamic services?

 

[Kadarin]

Would Arizona Christians be claiming violation of religious freedom if this were a muslim man that was packing a 2000 sqft barn in his back yard with daily prayers and Islamic services?

No, they would not. Christians are NOT all about tolerance and religious freedom.

 

[techs]

The two questions are:
Should communities have the right to enact and enforce zoning laws?
Should houses or places of religious worship be exempt from zoning laws?

To the first question I think zoning laws are necessary. If an intrusive business, say a manure processor, opened up a business in a residential area it directly affects not only the quality of life but the value of poperty.

To the second question, it is more complicated. If a person wants to get together with 10-12 people in their own home to pray, it should be exempt. As long as it doesn't become a nuisance. Based on what the guy wants to do with his property in this instance, with the numbers of people, megaphones, etc he should not be allowed. He can open a church anywhere in an appropriately zoned area if he chooses.

I moved my business and now work out of my home. In Vermont anyone can have a home based business regarless of zoning as long as they meet certain criteria, like they can't have any employees, they can't have a sign visible from the street, they can't use more than a certain amount of street parking for their customers.

 

[TheVrolok]

He was jailed for violating zoning code, not for having a home Bible study. Fail.