It’s time to bring down more statues

[Zorba]

60 years is a long time. Didn't they build victorian style houses in San Francisco 60 years ago? And a ridiculous classical library in the 20s, as well as plenty of statues. Now we live in boxes in the sky and we don't really build statues anymore, so the analogy of them doing it today doesn't work. You can see the contrast every time you look out your window. Probably. Never been to san francisco. The airport count?

I won't say stop being offended, but can't you just be offended? You won't die or anything. It's perfectly safe. I'm offended all day and I turned out 100% fine.

Come visit me in Oklahoma and I'll show you at least 200 statues built in the last 20 years, including many of specific people. There is an on going attempt to build the largest statue in the US in Tulsa, as well.

Further, as data posted in this thread shows, the Confederate statues and namings are STILL happening.

 

[fskimospy]

I'll give it some thought. Thanks. If I may ask, weren't you Eskimospy at one point? Did you change it because of "cultural sensitivity," or am I imagining this completely?

I changed it because, ironically enough, a conservative member of this board repeatedly (and disingenuously) complained it was not culturally sensitive and I got tired of it. Apparently some people aren't fans of Mystery Science Theater 3000.

 

[Zorba]

You evade the point. The vast majority of Southerners know the war was about slavery. The minority who profess to believe to the contrary is really quite small yet highly vocal. They don't really believe it was about states' rights, either. That's merely justification after the fact, a beard for racial animus. That's what's there when we strip away the carefully coded lexicon surrounding it.

You need to talk to more Southerners. I'm not even in a former Confederate State, but I'd be shocked if more than 30% of Oklahoma believed the civil war was primarily about slavery. They teach states right BS in all the schools and try to avoid slavery all together, except the quotes from Lincoln about keeping the union together was more important than freeing the salves.

 

[fskimospy]

You need to talk to more Southerners. I'm not even in a form Confederate State, but I'd be shocked of more than 30% of Oklahoma believed the civil war was primarily about slavery. They teach states right BS in all the schools and try to avoid slavery all together, except the quotes from Lincoln about keeping the union together was more important than freeing the salves.

As recently as 2015 a plurality of southerners do not believe slavery was the primary cause for the civil war. Hell, the numbers for people OUTSIDE the south are embarrassingly low.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/86-a-nation-still-divided-the-confederate-flag/

Regional differences exist. At least half of residents in the Northeast, 50%, Midwest, 56%, and West, 67%, say slavery caused the Civil War. However, Southerners divide. 49% report it was not the main reason for the conflict. 45% say slavery was at the heart of the Civil War.

 

[realibrad]

... I do appreciate you being civil and considerate so thank you for that!

I see what you did there.

 

[Zorba]

As recently as 2015 a plurality of southerners do not believe slavery was the primary cause for the civil war. Hell, the numbers for people OUTSIDE the south are embarrassingly low.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/86-a-nation-still-divided-the-confederate-flag/

Wow, much higher than I was expecting for the South, still disproves Jhhnn's point though.

Thanks for the data.

 

[realibrad]

Wow, much higher than I was expecting for the South, still disproves Jhhnn's point though.

Thanks for the data.

That is why to me this is really an education issue. Its time for some freedom of speech to correct this.

 

[justoh]

Come visit me in Oklahoma and I'll show you at least 200 statues built in the last 20 years, including many of specific people. There is an on going attempt to build the largest statue in the US in Tulsa, as well.

Further, as data posted in this thread shows, the Confederate statues and namings are STILL happening.

Well, that's just weird. So they're keen on statues in Oklahoma. I'd still be more concerned about the people making them. What's the problem or solution here? Chisel confiscation? I'm deeply offended every time I see a crucifix or a hijab, which represent something immeasurably more vile, awful than any confederate symbol ever could, but you don't see me constantly whining about religion, do you?

You don't see me spouting off esoteric nonsense about being supervised by an all powerful, all knowing being who can convict children of thought crime, forcing children to love someone they fear being like slavery, since it's an essential part of the master-slave relationship, or anything like that. Jesus is a scape-goat? Is that ethical? I don't call for them to ban these offensive images, since I realize often those wearing them don't realize that they represent something so terrible.

Surely they aren't all making these statues to antagonize liberals. Maybe they truly believe, as Christians do, that there's some virtue to the symbols they display. I used to know something about the US civil war. I don't anymore, but there would have been "great men" on both sides of the conflict, as there always is. We're all flawed, but there's usually good in everyone. Sometimes the most remarkable people are the most flawed, which isn't to say they're celebrated (or just remembered) for their flaws, but despite them. Who's to say what's worth putting chisel to stone? Some of you guys come off as extremely elitist.

 

[mizzou]

Auschwitz is a _site_ and a set of buildings that played a (horrific) function. Not in any way the same as, say, a statue of Hitler. Though when I visited those countries I did have a brief internal debate about what my motivations might be in visiting those sites, and decided against it. Apparently you get people taking selfies and eating ice-creams in those places now. Personally I kind of think people should only go there with a fairly clear idea of why they are doing so (I worried that for me it might involve too much of an element of 'ticking it off the list on the tourist trail' )

The argument about 'forgetting' seems very disengenuous to me. As if those statues are there to condemn those they are representations of, and are intended to invoke thoughts of the awful things they did. Given that many live every day with the long-term concequences of what they did, I don't know that they need to see a statue to remember it.

When my dad died, I did a long eulogy about the good things and memories wr have. He will not have a gravestone, but if he did I would visit it in his memorial.

My mom meanwhile, couldnt find a damn nice thing to say for him even at his funeral. her take was that he was a dick and a drug addict and why the hell would anyone say anything nice about him when everyone hated him.


In essence, I feel like this is sort of the statue argument. Someone felt the need to remember something and put up a memorial.

 

[hal2kilo]

You need to talk to more Southerners. I'm not even in a former Confederate State, but I'd be shocked if more than 30% of Oklahoma believed the civil war was primarily about slavery. They teach states right BS in all the schools and try to avoid slavery all together, except the quotes from Lincoln about keeping the union together was more important than freeing the salves.

Hell, I went to school in Northern Virginia, and throughout my history lessons from elementary all the way up to about 9 grade, it was never about protecting slavery. Hell, they celibrated Lee's birthday as a state holiday till about 2 grade. Don't know why they stopped. Now my 11 grade social studies teachers straightened me out, much to the chagrin of my parents. They also, pointed out that Lincoln, in reality, was also a racist. Northern Virginia has changed a lot since then.

 

[Zorba]

When my dad died, I did a long eulogy about the good things and memories wr have. He will not have a gravestone, but if he did I would visit it in his memorial.

My mom meanwhile, couldnt find a damn nice thing to say for him even at his funeral. her take was that he was a dick and a drug addict and why the hell would anyone say anything nice about him when everyone hated him.


In essence, I feel like this is sort of the statue argument. Someone felt the need to remember something and put up a memorial.

And if these were put up for that reason, you'd have a point. The vast majority of these had nothing to do with remembering the fallen, that is why they aren't generic solders, but specific well known leaders. This is also shown by they fact people didn't feel a need to remember until Blacks we're getting uppity, and then they felt the need to remember mostly in black areas of town, too.

 

[pmv]

You do realize, don't you, that the reason European countries have largely stopped building statues of people is because one nation's hero is, effectively, their neighboring nation's invader and occupier? This is why the paper Euro could never have individuals, and only has architectural structures and neutral designs. Of course France would want Napoleon--oh wait, that sucks for every other country that uses the Euro. You guys actually do not build statues for the exact reason that you are accusing other people of being offended snowflakes, but you simply brush it off with your own nonsense explanation of "it's just not very classy."

Quite true about the banknotes, but I'm not sure if it applies so much to statues, which tend to stay in the country they are built in. We did end up putting the terminus to the Eurotunnel service at Waterloo station. I don't think the French were that bothered, but I could be wrong.

 

[Chaotic42]

Wow, much higher than I was expecting for the South, still disproves Jhhnn's point though.

Thanks for the data.

I grew up in rural Louisiana and Mississippi and we were taught what I assume is a pretty normal course on the Civil War - slavery was common in the US, but the South was more agricultural and thus had a need for more manual labor. An end to slavery would have meant an end to the agricultural power of the South, so they seceded. Lincoln wanted to save the Union at virtually any cost, even if it meant keeping slavery.

We were never taught that slavery was anything but vile, though we were taught that it has been a common practice throughout history.

As for the Confederate flag, a lot of people view it as a symbol of the South. They don't seem to understand that even if they really only mean it as such a symbol, its meaning is forever intertwined with slavery. For whatever reason they refuse to adopt a new symbol that everyone can rally behind or better yet stop using symbols altogether and just live the good values they claim are part of the virtue of being a Southerner.

 

[Zorba]

I grew up in rural Louisiana and Mississippi and we were taught what I assume is a pretty normal course on the Civil War - slavery was common in the US, but the South was more agricultural and thus had a need for more manual labor. An end to slavery would have meant an end to the agricultural power of the South, so they seceded. Lincoln wanted to save the Union at virtually any cost, even if it meant keeping slavery.

We were never taught that slavery was anything but vile, though we were taught that it has been a common practice throughout history.

As for the Confederate flag, a lot of people view it as a symbol of the South. They don't seem to understand that even if they really only mean it as such a symbol, its meaning is forever intertwined with slavery. For whatever reason they refuse to adopt a new symbol that everyone can rally behind or better yet stop using symbols altogether and just live the good values they claim are part of the virtue of being a Southerner.

I agree that we were never taught slavery wasn't terrible, just that it wasn't the driving reason behind the civil war.

 

[Jhhnn]

As recently as 2015 a plurality of southerners do not believe slavery was the primary cause for the civil war. Hell, the numbers for people OUTSIDE the south are embarrassingly low.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/86-a-nation-still-divided-the-confederate-flag/

Thank you. The rationalizations run deeper than I'd imagined.

 

[realibrad]

Thank you. The rationalizations run deeper than I'd imagined.

Good on you for admitting you were wrong. This thread has gone fairly well.