It’s time to bring down more statues

[pmv]

Well.. the olympic stadium is still around and so is Auschwitz
Arent those, realistically, 100000% worse then a statue of a general who legally owned slaves? We want to see them bevause if we tear them down, we commit to forgeting and may do it again.

Auschwitz is a _site_ and a set of buildings that played a (horrific) function. Not in any way the same as, say, a statue of Hitler. Though when I visited those countries I did have a brief internal debate about what my motivations might be in visiting those sites, and decided against it. Apparently you get people taking selfies and eating ice-creams in those places now. Personally I kind of think people should only go there with a fairly clear idea of why they are doing so (I worried that for me it might involve too much of an element of 'ticking it off the list on the tourist trail' )

The argument about 'forgetting' seems very disengenuous to me. As if those statues are there to condemn those they are representations of, and are intended to invoke thoughts of the awful things they did. Given that many live every day with the long-term concequences of what they did, I don't know that they need to see a statue to remember it.

 

[fskimospy]

We don't build statues to honor people anymore. Nobody does that anywhere. Just the curiosity that we used to build statues is more significant than hurt feelings over statues. We used to build statues, and now we think they're passe but mostly harmless, unless you're a SJW. If you remove all the statues we'll forget why we stopped building them, and then we'll build more. It's a waste of time.

I wonder if the people who made the MLK memorial would disagree.

 

[brycejones]

I wonder if the people who made the MLK memorial would disagree.

Its a little hard for justoh to keep up from central Europe. But he is very, very concerned.

 

[fskimospy]

Its a little hard for justoh to keep up from central Europe. But he is very, very concerned.

I’m not sure, his argument that if we can’t stare at statues of traitorous, racist monsters every day we will forget that statues exist is very compelling, haha.

 

[realibrad]

I seriously doubt that many southerners accept the revisionist history that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. They know what those generals fought for- the right of southern states to keep slavery. They also know that those monuments were erected as potent symbols of Jim Crow & segregation, what former slavers managed to salvage after the war.

That's why we don't see many actually protesting removal at all. The New South is ready to move on but there are remnants of the Old South still doing their thing. The only people who show up to protest removal are the White supremacists & Nazis.

Oh I disagree. Perhaps I have spent more time with Southerners, but, I would say that the vast majority of people that support things like the statues believe the war was not about slavery. Its strange because they somehow obtained knowledge about issues that were real, but, not about all the other details that establish context.

You should see if you can talk to anybody that is from the south and ask them. I bet you would be surprised.

 

[justoh]

Oh, I'm guessing it must be about my claim that nobody builds statues anymore. You got me. Very occasionally we do still make statues. We still have the technology. I should have been clearer. When eminem said, "it's over, nobody listen to techno, let's go," he was doing something similar, but I guess because he's a liberal he gets a pass.

 

[realibrad]

I see what you are saying, but I am not sure a re-education plan is going to be very effective, at least quickly, after 150 years of complete BS propaganda.

I would say that education is your goal and that you just don't realize it. You want the statues removed because the purpose was to demoralize Blacks right? If that is the case, then why were you under the impression that removing them would be whitewashing history? You only get to that belief if you don't know the history of the statues.

So, your argument is that because the statues were built well after the south lost because the purpose was to demoralize people. The first part is impossible to oppose, but not the 2nd. The counter will be, okay so they built statues of people to memorialize the good things. Taking them down would just be trying to take away the good things about the south. We don't call for taking down statues of Washington even though he did some shitty things too.

Thus, you solve all of this you need to simply educate people on what the south was actually fighting for. It then runs up the chain and solves all the issues.

I think pulling the statues makes sense though, to open the conversation.

I strongly disagree here. Just trying to rip down the statues will cause more problems because of the aforementioned beliefs about what the statues represent. We both agree in what they truly represent, but, sadly many are misinformed.

Ask Zinfamous about what he was taught about the generals vs what you know to be true. You will see the issue here.

When I first heard about pulling statues, I was on the "Don't whitewash history" side of the fence. Then I read the real history of the vast majority of these statues and school names, and it just pisses me off. Again, if these were contemporary statues I would be fine with them and want them to stay. A statue of Jefferson Davis built in a non-confederate state in 1965, though, has nothing to do with the civil war, honoring the dead, or with history, it is a symbol of repression and power, just like flying a swastika. The education needs to be on why these things were installed closer to the modern day than to the civil war, it's not pride but hate.

We don't disagree here so I will just state that and leave it be.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh, I'm guessing it must be about my claim that nobody builds statues anymore. You got me. Very occasionally we do still make statues. We still have the technology. I should have been clearer. When eminem said, "it's over, nobody listen to techno, let's go," he was doing something similar, but I guess because he's a liberal he gets a pass.

I do enjoy this 'stupidest person alive' character that you play on here.

 

[Zorba]

I would say that education is your goal and that you just don't realize it. You want the statues removed because the purpose was to demoralize Blacks right? If that is the case, then why were you under the impression that removing them would be whitewashing history? You only get to that belief if you don't know the history of the statues.

So, your argument is that because the statues were built well after the south lost because the purpose was to demoralize people. The first part is impossible to oppose, but not the 2nd. The counter will be, okay so they built statues of people to memorialize the good things. Taking them down would just be trying to take away the good things about the south. We don't call for taking down statues of Washington even though he did some shitty things too.

Thus, you solve all of this you need to simply educate people on what the south was actually fighting for. It then runs up the chain and solves all the issues.



I strongly disagree here. Just trying to rip down the statues will cause more problems because of the aforementioned beliefs about what the statues represent. We both agree in what they truly represent, but, sadly many are misinformed.

Ask Zinfamous about what he was taught about the generals vs what you know to be true. You will see the issue here.



We don't disagree here so I will just state that and leave it be.

My counter is most people would've never been bothered to learn the history of the statues themselves if not for the drive to remove them, just like myself. I had no idea the majority were built in the 20s by the rebirth of the KKK or in the 60s as a counter to the civil rights movement, until current events gave me a reason to go read about it.

I think it did help, because just in Oklahoma we went from never discussing it, to cities voting to change street names and school boards changing school names. There have been very few people vocally opposed to the changes, but I don't think it would've happened if not for the wider movement.

Most people in the South couldn't name one great thing Davis or Lee did that didn't involve the Confederacy, so I don't agree that the statues represent flawed men that did great things, like Washington, but much closer to a statue of Hitler or naming Jewish schools Himmler.

 

[realibrad]

My counter is most people would've never been bothered to learn the history of the statues themselves if not for the drive to remove them, just like myself. I had no idea the majority were built in the 20s by the rebirth of the KKK or in the 60s as a counter to the civil rights movement, until current events gave me a reason to go read about it.

I think it did help, because just in Oklahoma we went from never discussing it, to cities voting to change street names and school boards changing school names. There have been very few people vocally opposed to the changes, but I don't think it would've happened if not for the wider movement.

Most people in the South couldn't name one great thing Davis or Lee did that didn't involve the Confederacy, so I don't agree that the statues represent flawed men that did great things, like Washington, but much closer to a statue of Hitler or naming Jewish schools Himmler.

First, its nice to have a discussion where I'm not accused of holding water for racists. Its refreshing.

The impetus for you might have been people wanting to take down the statues and that's fine, but the discussion must be rooted in the fact of what the war and thus the people were fighting over. Tearing them down without the discussion of why will do unneeded damage.

Why not educate people so they stop doing this? At the very least it makes the racists a lot more clear.

 

[Zorba]

First, its nice to have a discussion where I'm not accused of holding water for racists. Its refreshing.

The impetus for you might have been people wanting to take down the statues and that's fine, but the discussion must be rooted in the fact of what the war and thus the people were fighting over. Tearing them down without the discussion of why will do unneeded damage.

Why not educate people so they stop doing this? At the very least it makes the racists a lot more clear.

I completely agree with you that the movement should have an educational side to it, probably as the most prominent part of the drives. E.g. "This statue was built in at this site in 1960 because blacks organized at a Church across the street. It was voted on by a city council that was trying hard to keep forced segeragtion and was paid for my the KKK."

I think educating about the history of the individual statues is a good thing, and much better than just pulling them down in fits of vandalism. But I think wanting to reeducate the South on the reality of the war before removing them is a very unrealistic goal (at least for the foreseeable future).

 

[justoh]

My counter is most people would've never been bothered to learn the history of the statues themselves if not for the drive to remove them, just like myself. I had no idea the majority were built in the 20s by the rebirth of the KKK or in the 60s as a counter to the civil rights movement, until current events gave me a reason to go read about it.

60 years is a long time. Didn't they build victorian style houses in San Francisco 60 years ago? And a ridiculous classical library in the 20s, as well as plenty of statues. Now we live in boxes in the sky and we don't really build statues anymore, so the analogy of them doing it today doesn't work. You can see the contrast every time you look out your window. Probably. Never been to san francisco. The airport count?

I won't say stop being offended, but can't you just be offended? You won't die or anything. It's perfectly safe. I'm offended all day and I turned out 100% fine.

 

[fskimospy]

60 years is a long time. Didn't they build victorian style houses in San Francisco 60 years ago? And a ridiculous classical library in the 20s, as well as plenty of statues. Now we live in boxes in the sky and we don't really build statues anymore, so the analogy of them doing it today doesn't work. You can see the contrast every time you look out your window. Probably. Never been to san francisco. The airport count?

I won't say stop being offended, but can't you just be offended? You won't die or anything. It's perfectly safe. I'm offended all day and I turned out 100% fine.

People are just removing garbage they no longer wish to pay money to upkeep. The argument here seems to be that we need to pay money to maintain statues honoring horrible people forever because otherwise conservatives will be offended. Can't they just be offended? Why do we all need to pay money to protect their feelings?

 

[zinfamous]

I seriously doubt that many southerners accept the revisionist history that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. They know what those generals fought for- the right of southern states to keep slavery. They also know that those monuments were erected as potent symbols of Jim Crow & segregation, what former slavers managed to salvage after the war.

That's why we don't see many actually protesting removal at all. The New South is ready to move on but there are remnants of the Old South still doing their thing. The only people who show up to protest removal are the White supremacists & Nazis.

I don't doubt it. I went to a smarty-pants magnet middle school in Raleigh, NC (one of the more liberal enclaves in all of the South) and we were roundly taught that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about "State's Rights!" Over and over and over again. It went on through highschool like that, in AP US history, because apparently it was important to accept that the reasons for the Civil War were "highly nuanced" and involved many, far more important issues than slavery.

I have no idea if things have changed--this was 20-25 years ago--but there is a concerted effort to scramble the brains of young, impressionable southerners into believing an abject lie about the simple fact of this war. Yes, Stonewall Jackson is a hero. Yes, R E Lee was a great hero, the greatest general that this country has ever seen, and it was only a small crisis of conscience and loyalty that he chose to fight for the south, rather than the North, etc etc. Sherman was the devil incarnate: A savage, irredeemable villain. And so on and so on....and this was in a part of the south with a nationally high-ranked level of education (which, opposed to the rest of the state, actually brought us down to something like 48 / 50 in those days in terms of public education, lol)

 

[realibrad]

I completely agree with you that the movement should have an educational side to it, probably as the most prominent part of the drives. E.g. "This statue was built in at this site in 1960 because blacks organized at a Church across the street. It was voted on by a city council that was trying hard to keep forced segeragtion and was paid for my the KKK."

I think educating about the history of the individual statues is a good thing, and much better than just pulling them down in fits of vandalism. But I think wanting to reeducate the South on the reality of the war before removing them is a very unrealistic goal (at least for the foreseeable future).

I think that is where we disagree. I think education is the only way to fix this. Most people would be willing to take them down once they got a better view of history. The cycle of misinformation must be broken.

Also, don't discount how quickly things can change. I'm 30 and I expected gay marriage to happen much much later, and then one day bam there it is. We have the internet now and information flows much faster. Get the discussion going and this will snowball very quickly.

But, this is why I think just saying that the statues are equivalent to Nazi symbols wont help. Because people think that the argument is hyperbolic because the war was not about slavery.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't doubt it. I went to a smarty-pants magnet middle school in Raleigh, NC (one of the more liberal enclaves in all of the South) and we were roundly taught that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about "State's Rights!" Over and over and over again. It went on through highschool like that, in AP US history, because apparently it was important to accept that the reasons for the Civil War were "highly nuanced" and involved many, far more important issues than slavery.

I have no idea if things have changed--this was 20-25 years ago--but there is a concerted effort to scramble the brains of young, impressionable southerners into believing an abject lie about the simple fact of this war. Yes, Stonewall Jackson is a hero. Yes, R E Lee was a great hero, the greatest general that this country has ever seen, and it was only a small crisis of conscience and loyalty that he chose to fight for the south, rather than the North, etc etc. Sherman was the devil incarnate: A savage, irredeemable villain. And so on and so on....and this was in a part of the south with a nationally high-ranked level of education (which, opposed to the rest of the state, actually brought us down to something like 48 / 50 in those days in terms of public education, lol)

Yes, in my experiences in the south there are still PLENTY of people who think the Civil War wasn't about slavery. And yes it's because of exactly what you describe, a decades long effort by southerners to lie to their children about their own history.

 

[zinfamous]

We don't build statues to honor people anymore. Nobody does that anywhere. Just the curiosity that we used to build statues is more significant than hurt feelings over statues. We used to build statues, and now we think they're passe but mostly harmless, unless you're a SJW. If you remove all the statues we'll forget why we stopped building them, and then we'll build more. It's a waste of time.

You do realize, don't you, that the reason European countries have largely stopped building statues of people is because one nation's hero is, effectively, their neighboring nation's invader and occupier? This is why the paper Euro could never have individuals, and only has architectural structures and neutral designs. Of course France would want Napoleon--oh wait, that sucks for every other country that uses the Euro. You guys actually do not build statues for the exact reason that you are accusing other people of being offended snowflakes, but you simply brush it off with your own nonsense explanation of "it's just not very classy."

 

[brycejones]

Yes, in my experiences in the south there are still PLENTY of people who think the Civil War wasn't about slavery. And yes it's because of exactly what you describe, a decades long effort by southerners to lie to their children about their own history.

Its much easier to talk about your great great great grand pappy fighting for freedom than it is to say he fought for the .1% to keep slaves.

 

[justoh]

Why not just leave it up to the people who own them the statues? All the media attention these statues get, when there are living, breathing people to be focusing on, like Hillary, for example... incredible

If it's privately owned, well, then it's up to the people who own the controversial statue. If the statue is publicly owned, then have a vote. If some local municipality or a state does something that some SJW (often not even a resident) doesn't like, then maybe don't invite them onto CNN. Why all the commotion?

People are just removing garbage they no longer wish to pay money to upkeep. The argument here seems to be that we need to pay money to maintain statues honoring horrible people forever because otherwise conservatives will be offended. Can't they just be offended? Why do we all need to pay money to protect their feelings?

My first post, and also all of them, made clear that I don't particularly care about statues. They're like owls to me. We don't need them, so if someone or some organization wants to remove a statue and they can, then by all means. Have at it. I've written nothing to support these tedious allegations against me. I guess it's an important distinction whether it's about statue removal or statue retention, in your mind, but the exact controversy here isn't important, because my wisdom is so universal. Whether you're on the right or the left, we need to get over this statue fetish. Boy that's a large image.

 

[fskimospy]

My first post, and also all of them, made clear that I don't particularly care about statues. They're like owls to me. We don't need them, so if someone or some organization wants to remove a statue and they can, then by all means. Have at it. I've written nothing to support these tedious allegations against me. I guess it's an important distinction whether it's about statue removal or statue retention, in your mind, but the exact controversy here isn't important, because my wisdom is so universal. Whether you're on the right or the left, we need to get over this statue fetish. Boy that's a large image.

Haha, like I said I really enjoy this 'stupidest person ever' character you play.

If anyone needs to get over a statue fetish it's you as you apparently are very concerned about what communities do with their public spaces and public money. Just ignore it and move on. Sometimes you just need to live with being offended.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh I disagree. Perhaps I have spent more time with Southerners, but, I would say that the vast majority of people that support things like the statues believe the war was not about slavery. Its strange because they somehow obtained knowledge about issues that were real, but, not about all the other details that establish context.

You should see if you can talk to anybody that is from the south and ask them. I bet you would be surprised.

You evade the point. The vast majority of Southerners know the war was about slavery. The minority who profess to believe to the contrary is really quite small yet highly vocal. They don't really believe it was about states' rights, either. That's merely justification after the fact, a beard for racial animus. That's what's there when we strip away the carefully coded lexicon surrounding it.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Wow, I see my comment generated a good bit of discussion. I'm good with that. I can't respond to every comment that's been made since, but here are a few points...

I have no desire to see new statues made to honor southerners of the antebellum period of our past, unless they are statues of people who stood up against slavery.

I still think it's a good idea to keep the existing statues as a reminder of where we were and that we don't condone that anymore. That in no way means that I think things are perfect now. There are obviously remaining issues that have been discussed to death around here that go beyond the topic of this thread.

No, I don't think that removing the statues will somehow make us collectively forget the past and somehow lead to us repeating that tragedy. Nice hyperbole though.

Southern schools are completely disingenuous in teaching that the Civil War was only about state's rights.

Modern liberal historians are also disingenuous in stating that slavery was the only issue that started the Civil War as there was a state's rights component involved. Slavery was THE catalyst to be sure, but it wasn't the only issue.

As far as that plaque goes, I'm not fond of it at all, but I think that it may be protected by the first amendment. The test for whether or not something is covered by free speech / expression isn't whether or not if offends a liberal / SJW.

I'll end by paraphrasing a statement often attributed to Voltaire - 'I may disagree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'. All sides need to stop looking for reasons to be offended and then revile those that get offended by something they're saying / doing.

I'm sure I didn't cover everything, but I have a life outside of ATPN. Hope you all have a great day, which means even the people with whom I disagree. Peace out.

 

[justoh]

Haha, like I said I really enjoy this 'stupidest person ever' character you play.

If anyone needs to get over a statue fetish it's you as you apparently are very concerned about what communities do with their public spaces and public money. Just ignore it and move on. Sometimes you just need to live with being offended.

I'll give it some thought. Thanks. If I may ask, weren't you Eskimospy at one point? Did you change it because of "cultural sensitivity," or am I imagining this completely?

 

[realibrad]

You evade the point. The vast majority of Southerners know the war was about slavery. The minority who profess to believe to the contrary is really quite small yet highly vocal. They don't really believe it was about states' rights, either. That's merely justification after the fact, a beard for racial animus. That's what's there when we strip away the carefully coded lexicon surrounding it.

You should read the other replies from people that were educated in the south. I did not evade the point.

 

[fskimospy]

Southern schools are completely disingenuous in teaching that the Civil War was only about state's rights.

Modern liberal historians are also disingenuous in stating that slavery was the only issue that started the Civil War as there was a state's rights component involved. Slavery was THE catalyst to be sure, but it wasn't the only issue.

I am unaware of a single modern liberal historian who has made the claim that slavery was the ONLY issue in the civil war. What they say is that it was by FAR the most important issue, which is true. This is #bothsides-ing the discussion when the two sides are not even remotely equivalent.

As far as that plaque goes, I'm not fond of it at all, but I think that it may be protected by the first amendment. The test for whether or not something is covered by free speech / expression isn't whether or not if offends a liberal / SJW.

It is speech BY the government so no, it is not protected by the first amendment in any way. Nobody is arguing against people's right to say dumb things about the civil war. Literally no one. What they are arguing against is paying money to have the GOVERNMENT say dumb things about the civil war.

While I think you've made a bunch of bad arguments here, I do appreciate you being civil and considerate so thank you for that!