It’s time to bring down more statues

[Indus]

When are Trump statues going up so we can plan on bringing them down..

 

[whm1974]

When are Trump statues going up so we can plan on bringing them down..

Nah, just throw rotten food at them.

 

[brycejones]

OP should also be very concerned about the sexism that appears to be at work he here. Why are only monuments to men being attacked? This is just is just the start what will the radical feminists attack next?

Or is that for another thread?

 

[ch33zw1z]

I support removing monuments that admire, praise, laud, etc...anyone who condoned slavery. We dont need to rewrite history, but we don't need to hold in high esteem those who would consider owning humans.

 

[Starbuck1975]

They should absolutely take down the statue of Andrew Jackson in New Orleans...and then immediately surrender the city to the British.

It makes perfect sense to eliminate Confederate monuments, and rename streets and schools that honor Confederate generals, especially given the context of when most of them were commemorated relative to desegregation. Move all that stuff to a field and make it a paint ball range.

I don’t think we should remove monuments to American historical figures from before the Civil War, especially if the monuments went up before the Civil War.

 

[K1052]

If the monuments went up say at a minimum after the turn of 1900 I think there is a very good argument for removal. The vast majority of them were installed well after the war just remind black people just where they continued to rank in the south, emancipation or no.

 

[richaron]

Firstly I don't condone any of the racist tripe these people may have believed in.

But history is sacred and historical sites should be preserved. Sure taking down the statues is not as bad as the Taliban blowing up ancient sites, but I do think it's in the same vein. People can't erase history, no matter how vile they view the history or the heros of that time. I don't think the statues should be kept to be idealized, but I do think they should be kept for for their historical significance.

So that the zeitgeist of the now won't stop people of tomorrow from having these monuments to contemplate.

 

[Stokely]

I agree that I'd draw a line and say that the civil war "heroes" of the rebel South are the ones that should go. The rest of the country (grudgingly) decided to do away with slavery and those dickweeds said "nope".

And as mentioned above, a lot of these were put up way afterward simply in response to uppity blacks wanting to actually be treated as human citizens. How about keeping them up but adding a big fat plaque on them saying: "this was added by racist POS Jim Whoever to keep down the darkies in 1921. Let this serve as a reminder of our own ignorance." There's your history intact!

But ideally I'd take all that energy and anger and somehow try to funnel it into getting people to vote. That's more important than statues. If all the Obama voters that ended up staying home had come out in 2016 Trump wouldn't have sniffed a victory.

 

[realibrad]

OP should also be very concerned about the sexism that appears to be at work he here. Why are only monuments to men being attacked? This is just is just the start what will the radical feminists attack next?

Or is that for another thread?

Oh my. And just wherever would we be without your concern about the OPs concern? The world would be so hopeless without you telling us whom to follow. How you have found the courage to mount such a very high horse in a truly astounding feat of the purist human spirit that is a shining beacon to us all.

 

[realibrad]

I agree that I'd draw a line and say that the civil war "heroes" of the rebel South are the ones that should go. The rest of the country (grudgingly) decided to do away with slavery and those dickweeds said "nope".

And as mentioned above, a lot of these were put up way afterward simply in response to uppity blacks wanting to actually be treated as human citizens. How about keeping them up but adding a big fat plaque on them saying: "this was added by racist POS Jim Whoever to keep down the darkies in 1921. Let this serve as a reminder of our own ignorance." There's your history intact!

But ideally I'd take all that energy and anger and somehow try to funnel it into getting people to vote. That's more important than statues. If all the Obama voters that ended up staying home had come out in 2016 Trump wouldn't have sniffed a victory.

Having the southern generals is where I would draw that line as well. I can see wanting to remember something great done an imperfect person, but I don't see that with the southern generals.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Firstly I don't condone any of the racist tripe these people may have believed in.

But history is sacred and historical sites should be preserved. Sure taking down the statues is not as bad as the Taliban blowing up ancient sites, but I do think it's in the same vein. People can't erase history, no matter how vile they view the history or the heros of that time. I don't think the statues should be kept to be idealized, but I do think they should be kept for for their historical significance.

So that the zeitgeist of the now won't stop people of tomorrow from having these monuments to contemplate.

they're not historical, a lot of these statues were put up during the civil rights struggles mid 20th century as well as Jim Crow era, it was specifically designed to intimidate and show black citizens where they stood in the societal hierarchy, per the people in charge (and those weren't black citizens, just in case you weren't aware of that)

 

[Veliko]

History isn't sacred and to say that statues should be kept is to ignore why they exist in the first place.

Opinions and attitudes towards historical figures can change dramatically over time. Where there was once a demand for a particular statue to be built, there will come a time when there is a demand to take it down.

 

[richaron]

they're not historical, a lot of these statues were put up during the civil rights struggles mid 20th century as well as Jim Crow era, it was specifically designed to intimidate and show black citizens where they stood in the societal hierarchy, per the people in charge (and those weren't black citizens, just in case you weren't aware of that)

Decent point, and maybe you are correct in suggesting a line should be drawn somewhere. I don't like drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, but sometimes I see the point.

But an argument can be made, against the view of some here, that the truly significant figures and those with true historical values are the oldest and those whom appear to be most offensive to modern morals.

 

[richaron]

History isn't sacred and to say that statues should be kept is to ignore why they exist in the first place.

Yeah good point. Greek and Roman statues honouring their gods should be wiped out because they come from a mostly dead culture. And ancient south american monuments to blood sacrifices should be wiped out because modern society no longer believes in that stuff. /s

I'd hate to live in a world where people think along the same lines as your post.

 

[Veliko]

Yeah good point. Greek and Roman statues honouring their gods should be wiped out because they come from a mostly dead culture. And ancient south american monuments to blood sacrifices should be wiped out because modern society no longer believes in that stuff. /s

I'd hate to live in a world where people think along the same lines as your post.

Sorry, what point do you think you're making here?

 

[richaron]

Sorry, what point do you think you're making here?

I'm saying it's incredibly short sighted and narrow minded to say something has no value because current thinking is not in line with "why it exists in the first place".

 

[Veliko]

I'm saying it's incredibly short sighted and narrow minded to say something has no value because current thinking is not in line with "why it exists in the first place".

The only point I can discern here is that you don't think any statues should ever be taken down.

 

[richaron]

The only point I can discern here is that you don't think any statues should ever be taken down.

Well... Yeah that's pretty much it. Even if these dudes were the skid-marks in the toilet of history I think the statues have their place as something physical which future people can learn from.

I might be OK if the statues had to be relocated 10 feet to the left or something so another statue can take centre place, and/or if the plaques were changed to inform about the statue's skid-mark-ian propaganda origins.

*Edited a little to clarify

 

[Veliko]

Well... Yeah that's pretty much it. Even if these dudes were the skid-stains in the toilet of history I think they have their place as something future people can learn from.

I might be OK if the statues had to be relocated 10 feet to the left or something so another statue can take centre place, and/or if the plaques were changed to inform about the statue's skid-stain-ian propaganda origins.

The problem with this is that you are only questioning one side of what is happening here; you need to question why they were built in the first place.

There is nothing inherently good or noble about building a statue, and there is nothing inherently bad with demolishing them.

They're two sides of the same coin.

 

[richaron]

The problem with this is that you are only questioning one side of what is happening here; you need to question why they were built in the first place.

There is nothing inherently good or noble about building a statue, and there is nothing inherently bad with demolishing them.

They're two sides of the same coin.

Thank you for proving my point?

People do need to question why they were built in the first place. And something like a statue can allow people in the future to have a physical and visceral connection to another time and another type of thinking.

Edit: The placing of a statue itself obviously isn't inherently good or noble, but it's no small undertaking and it does speak to the culture of the time and therefore it's inherent historical significance.

 

[Meghan54]

Firstly I don't condone any of the racist tripe these people may have believed in.

But history is sacred and historical sites should be preserved. Sure taking down the statues is not as bad as the Taliban blowing up ancient sites, but I do think it's in the same vein. People can't erase history, no matter how vile they view the history or the heros of that time. I don't think the statues should be kept to be idealized, but I do think they should be kept for for their historical significance.

So that the zeitgeist of the now won't stop people of tomorrow from having these monuments to contemplate.

We do not to record or preserve history by monument.....we preserve history in books. Monuments/statues are just memorializing/aggrandizing individuals/etc.

 

[Veliko]

Thank you for proving my point?

People do need to question why they were built in the first place. And something like a statue can allow people in the future to have a physical and visceral connection to another time and another type of thinking.

Edit: The placing of a statue itself obviously isn't inherently good or noble, but it's no small undertaking and it does speak to the culture of the time and therefore it's inherent historical significance.

The people of the future may not want to have a physical and visceral connection to a particular person, as they don't feel that it speaks to their culture of the time.

So they take it down.

 

[richaron]

The people of the future may not want to have a physical and visceral connection to a particular person, as they don't feel that it speaks to their culture of the time.

So they take it down.

Tru dat.

But I don't think they have the right to choose for those yet to come. And again I think a physical connection to the past from a physical item from history is irreplaceable and significant for people. Much more so than reading a book. I've already posted arguments and examples of my thinking which covers what you've said so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

History isn't sacred and to say that statues should be kept is to ignore why they exist in the first place.

Opinions and attitudes towards historical figures can change dramatically over time. Where there was once a demand for a particular statue to be built, there will come a time when there is a demand to take it down.

Museums wouldn’t be very interesting and would sit mostly empty if we applied this standard.

 

[Veliko]

Museums wouldn’t be very interesting and would sit mostly empty if we applied this standard.

Sorry, what?

We have been demolishing statues and monuments for as long as we have been building them.