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israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

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Lemon law said:
It does not surprise me that JEDIYoda is not connecting any dots, but what this entire incident has done is to focus international attention of both the Israeli blockade of Gaza and also the failed and dubious policy of continuing to allow Israel to keep occupying lands it captured in the 1967&73 wars. Land Israel can never own.

As GWB learned, the legitimacy of any military occupation derives solely from the UN permission.
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Out of curiosity why are you stating that they can never own it? Keeping land captured in war is a pretty standard tactic for oh, the entire history of the human race.
 
TheRickRoller said:
Knowing that there are quite a few shall we say, enthusiastic Israeli supporters here, I'd like to make this statement, before I get targetted by you.

I could give two shits about Israel vs Palestine. Really. They can blow eachother up to their respective hells and back. I'm not pro-Palestine, I'm not pro-Israel, I'm pro shut-the-fuck-up-and-get-into-the-21st-century.

This is about a nation, openly attacking an international fleet, in international waters. Murdering members of the civilian crew. Committing very henious crimes. And how they will be summarily dismissed of any wrong doing. What if China boarded a US aid fleet to South Korea? This is the only nation that can get away with anything.
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It's not murder if you kill terrorist supporters and sympathizers. It's self defense. It's justice.
 
GuitarDaddy said:
And anyone who believes the Isrealis tactics were anything short of extremely stupid and asking to escalate violence is equally as idiotic. Isreal would have been better advised to
1. Announce their intentions
2. Fired a warning shot or two
3 Disabled or sunk the lead ship
Seems like pretty standard procedure for a naval blockage, but NO they repeled onto the boat armed with paint guns?
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At least Israel has movies showing its soldiers attacked. What would have happened if those animals - or the kids onboard, acting as a human shield - drowned?

I think that overall, this was handled in a reasonable way. Unless Israel had some magical way of incapacitating the vessels mid-sea without boarding it, this makes sense. The commandos paid the price for Israel's diplomacy, if they boarded the ship with their weapons they wouldn't have been scratched but the death toll might have been considerable.

All in all, there's not much you can do to stop a mob of Muslim "martyrs" armed with knives, at least not without killing them. I find it amusing that people who must think highly of their own intelligence - CitizenKain comes across as such - automatically, unconditionally side with such animals.
 
JSt0rm01 said:
You can't blame the soldiers. They got dropped into a gaggle of retards and started getting beaten with pipes and shit. Most of us would shoot people if we had a gun. The higher ups shouldn't of dropped them into that shit.
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This. I don't get Israeli commanders actions either. If you look at tape it was evident there would be violence on insertion and even after violence broke out they kept repelling them in and subjecting them to more violence. Makes no sense. Either it ends bad for your side with dead soldiers. Or like it has, gives Israeli a black eye.
 
glad to see the UN jumping into action for a "special emergency session".. maybe the wing dedicated to Israel-bashing is spearheading it.
 
senseamp said:
Hmm, if only there was something Israel could have done about not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters. I don't know, maybe not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters?
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The ship was warned it would be allowed to breach blockade. Since that was the expressed intent of boat (who messed up their flags as well) Israel did nothing illegal or unjust. Next time they should use a torpedo instead of dropping guys in on jackals with paintball guns as first defense.
 
Zebo said:
This. I don't get Israeli commanders actions either. If you look at tape it was evident there would be violence on insertion and even after violence broke out they kept repelling them in and subjecting them to more violence. Makes no sense. Either it ends bad for your side with dead soldiers. Or like it has, gives Israeli a black eye.
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From the translated audio it seems like the air commanders were not in a position to immediately see the initial attacks on the first troopers to fast-rope down and give a reactive command. They were in hover slightly below the deck line per one of the videos? When they could see the top portion of the attackers as they were beating the landing troopers they did call out the situation.

The real question is what was the assault team commander doing?

Was he still on the chopper and doing a visual survey? He should have seen the mess below, dropped his guys ASAP to support the downed troopers while calling for reinforcements.

I know gas is quite ineffective on a moving ship deck, but a couple of flash bangs would be a deterrent to a rushing crowd.

Israeli commanders lead from the front, especially in the elite units. It could be that the assault commander was the first one down and he was in no position to direct follow-on actions as he was pulled down and beaten.

It might be that the second trooper was slow out of the chopper when he saw the first trooper/commander and the rope being pulled off vertical. He then hesitated some very long seconds for the rope to get to some aspect of vertical before he went down into another crowd of attackers.

There were two ropes but it seemed that only one was used.

Follow on fast-ropers were faster off the mark but still slow (three meter intervals are called for when doing a boarding so as to get them down fast and to avoid landing on each other at the bottom.) The rope stabilized with the weight of multiple troopers on it so they were better at intervals.

The films and the after action reviews will give those troops something to think about. Like how Murphy's Law rules.
 
ciproxr said:
seriously does anyone actually believe the people on the vessel started this?
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Yes. The "activists" were mostly terrorist/Palestinian sympathizers who wanted to make a show of killing some Israeli commandos. The commandos had every right to board the ship, and they do it regularly. Since the Israelis are running a BLOCKADE.
 
Zebo said:
This. I don't get Israeli commanders actions either. If you look at tape it was evident there would be violence on insertion and even after violence broke out they kept repelling them in and subjecting them to more violence. Makes no sense. Either it ends bad for your side with dead soldiers. Or like it has, gives Israeli a black eye.
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With all due respects to you Zebo, I wonder if you understand non violent change v brutal oppression. Which is as old as humanity itself.

The entire purpose of the freedom flotilla was to challenge the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Gaza. And had international support from Turkey, Germany, France, GB, various Scandinavian nations, and contained at least one Nobel laureate.

Yet the initial Israeli plans were to treat these citizens of the world in exactly the same brutal way as Israel has always treated its Palestinians, which now makes the entire world wonder why they should support Israel at all. Israel has not solved a damn thing in 62 years and now they have really screwed themselves.

What did Israel think would happen when they tried a predawn raid using Gestapo tactics?

As Israel will now find out, civilized human beings find those Israeli tactics totally unacceptable, and now question why we, as civilized human beings should still support the same Israeli brutalization of Palestinians.
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senseamp said:
Hmm, if only there was something Israel could have done about not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters. I don't know, maybe not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters?
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Being that the Israeli action was completely legal (justified or not, I'll leave that to debate, but legal it was), it did exactly what it had to in order to maintain its sovereignty. The organizers probably wanted to go inside Israeli water in daylight, for the sake of the media circus, Israel had to get them at night (safer and quieter) and this was only possible in international waters. But again, it is completely legal.
 
ConstipatedVigilante said:
Yes. The "activists" were mostly terrorist/Palestinian sympathizers who wanted to make a show of killing some Israeli commandos. The commandos had every right to board the ship, and they do it regularly. Since the Israelis are running a BLOCKADE.
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now can you tell me why does israel have the authority to form a blockade and deny people food and medicine ?
 
SamurAchzar said:
Being that the Israeli action was completely legal (justified or not, I'll leave that to debate, but legal it was), it did exactly what it had to in order to maintain its sovereignty. The organizers probably wanted to go inside Israeli water in daylight, for the sake of the media circus, Israel had to get them at night (safer and quieter) and this was only possible in international waters. But again, it is completely legal.
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why is the blockade legal ?
 
CitizenKain said:
They were probably unused to fighting people who fight back. Its a lot easier to murder people who aren't fighting back.

The video of that soldier getting thrown over the side was hilarious though.
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Too bad there isn't video of the terrorist sympathizing fools getting killed. That would be even more hilarious.
 
senseamp said:
Hmm, if only there was something Israel could have done about not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters. I don't know, maybe not lowering their soldiers onto someone else's ship in international waters?
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Your attempt at sarcasm only serves to prove your foolishness. Everyone knows this.
 
Lemon law said:
With all due respects to you Zebo, I wonder if you understand non violent change v brutal oppression. Which is as old as humanity itself.

The entire purpose of the freedom flotilla was to challenge the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Gaza. And had international support from Turkey, Germany, France, GB, various Scandinavian nations, and contained at least one Nobel laureate.

Yet the initial Israeli plans were to treat these citizens of the world in exactly the same brutal way as Israel has always treated its Palestinians, which now makes the entire world wonder why they should support Israel at all. Israel has not solved a damn thing in 62 years and now they have really screwed themselves.

What did Israel think would happen when they tried a predawn raid using Gestapo tactics?

As Israel will now find out, civilized human beings find those Israeli tactics totally unacceptable, and now question why we, as civilized human beings should still support the same Israeli brutalization of Palestinians.
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That ship's occupants were who, again?

Gaza flotilla participants invoked killing of Jews

Why don't you point out the Nobel laureate in the video? Is he the guy with the beard? Or is it the woman getting ready for a martyrdom action?

Maybe it is this guy?

Gaza flotilla participants aspire to die as martyrs

Yeah, he is a real peaceful guy, about as deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize as Obama deserved his.

You have a strange idea of what the word civilized means.
 
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ciproxr said:
why is the blockade legal ?
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Why can I punch you in the face? Because I am stronger than you. Sure, you could try to punch back, but I'll just beat you into a quivering mass of shit and flesh. Israel is stronger than Palestine, that is why they can blockade them, and that is why the Palestinians can't do anything about it. No one with power will do anything to help the Palestinians. Everyone knows this.
 
Lemon law said:
With all due respects to you Zebo, I wonder if you understand non violent change v brutal oppression. Which is as old as humanity itself.

The entire purpose of the freedom flotilla was to challenge the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Gaza. And had international support from Turkey, Germany, France, GB, various Scandinavian nations, and contained at least one Nobel laureate.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make them any less of Hamas supporting, terrorist sympathizing idiots. Arafat was a Nobel laureate too.

Yet the initial Israeli plans were to treat these citizens of the world in exactly the same brutal way as Israel has always treated its Palestinians,
Click to expand...

At least you can't say Israel is racially biased against the Palestinians.

What did Israel think would happen when they tried a predawn raid using Gestapo tactics?
Click to expand...

Using SS paint guns

As Israel will now find out, civilized human beings find those Israeli tactics totally unacceptable, and now question why we, as civilized human beings should still support the same Israeli brutalization of Palestinians.
Click to expand...

This is one way it can play out, the other one is that the true face of the "peace protesters" will come to light, probably after the big networks start broadcasting IDF material in few hours.
 
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