Israel: We Are At War

Page 145 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,424
10,317
136
Speaking as someone that has worked in the Defense space for 3 decades, including a few of those sites listed (and other similar ones), there is no real security to speak of. Picture private guards that are older than Biden, or rounder than Trump. It's on the level of mall security.
Yea, I did a stent at our home office in Anaheim, after working at the EB Groton shipyard, and tech rep. at the Bangor Sub Base. Yep, compete difference in real security, between the home office and those other facilities mentioned.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
That's a naive take (and also reliant on believing ONE of bin Laden's reasons alone), which by logical extension would have the US not being involved AT ALL in large swaths of global policy.

US persons are at risk in lots of locations (home and abroad) for any number of reasons. Adding one more to the list to try and score cheap political points on a hot button issue that we can't actually control or solve is not a great idea.

Like I said, carry on.
Naive take? Not sure if you're just being dense or things really dont add up with you.

The bombing and killing of tens of 1000s of civilians is a very compelling reason for anyone on the receiving end to be be absolutely enraged with those enabling the killing of their loved ones or people. Its a universal principle, not just Bin Ladens.

The U.S. was enraged when it happened to them on 9-11! And they similarly unleashed violent reprisals against their attackers. One would be foolish to write off any potential blowback from the Gaza slaughter.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,575
8,029
136
Naive take? Not sure if you're just being dense or things really dont add up with you.

The bombing and killing of tens of 1000s of civilians is a very compelling reason for anyone on the receiving end to be be absolutely enraged with those enabling the killing of their loved ones or people. Its a universal principle, not just Bin Ladens.

The U.S. was enraged when it happened to them on 9-11! And they similarly unleashed violent reprisals against their attackers. One would be foolish to write off any potential blowback from the Gaza slaughter.

So you're all in favor of protecting US lives, right? Now go back and re-read that 2nd sentence again. Here, I'll give it to you again.

That's a naive take (and also reliant on believing ONE of bin Laden's reasons alone), which by logical extension would have the US not being involved AT ALL in large swaths of global policy.

US persons are at risk in lots of locations (home and abroad) for any number of reasons. Adding one more to the list to try and score cheap political points on a hot button issue that we can't actually control or solve is not a great idea.

Like I said, carry on.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
So you're all in favor of protecting US lives, right? Now go back and re-read that 2nd sentence again. Here, I'll give it to you again.

US persons are at risk in lots of locations (home and abroad) for any number of reasons. Adding one more to the list to try and score cheap political points on a hot button issue that we can't actually control or solve is not a great idea.
You mean the US is stuck with supplying Israels bombs requirements regardless how many civilians, women and children it kills. While knowing that it can seriously undermine its own interests and security when new terrorists spawn out of this seeking revenge for its policies. Like what Hamas did to the Israelis on Oct 7. And what Hamas or other terrorists may seek to do to the US in turn like Bin Laden.

When you say that we cant actually control or solve you basically mean the Israels have us by the nuts regardless of what they do including killing our own like they did in the USS Liberty attack. And you're fine with continuing to support them. Got it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pmv

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
28,563
136
Another headline from the not genocide:


INoxUCX.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pohemi

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,575
8,029
136
You mean the US is stuck with supplying Israels bombs requirements regardless how many civilians, women and children it kills. While knowing that it can seriously undermine its own interests and security when new terrorists spawn out of this seeking revenge for its policies. Like what Hamas did to the Israelis on Oct 7. And what Hamas or other terrorists may seek to do to the US in turn like Bin Laden.

When you say that we cant actually control or solve you basically mean the Israels have us by the nuts regardless of what they do including killing our own like they did in the USS Liberty attack. And you're fine with continuing to support them. Got it.

Nice strawman, but no.

I'm saying that even if we cut Israel off now the "problems" would still exist. It's been there for a while, and it'll be there long after we're gone.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
Nice strawman, but no.

I'm saying that even if we cut Israel off now the "problems" would still exist. It's been there for a while, and it'll be there long after we're gone.
Yes problems will still exist, but nothing like the problems that Israel created for the US in terms of 1000s of US lives lost (directly and indirectly), economic and strategic setbacks, prestige and reputation being a puppet of a tiny state that controls its wars and foreign policies and DEFIES the US when told to stop.

And please, learn how to use terms like "strawman" properly in the areas it applies.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
Anyone recall the 1993 WTC bombing? Which included Ramzi Yousef as one of its planners and perpetrators?

Yousef sent a letter to The New York Times after the bombing that expressed his motive:

We are, the fifth battalion in the Liberation Army, declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel, the state of terrorism, and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region.

Our Demands Are:

1 – Stop all military, economical, and political aid to Israel.

2 – All diplomatic relations with Israel must stop.

3 – Not to interfere with any of the Middle East countries interior affairs.

If our demands are not met, all of our functional groups in the army will continue to execute our missions against the military and civilian targets in and out the United States. For your own information, our army has more than hundred and fifty suicidal soldiers ready to go ahead. The terrorism that Israel practices (which is supported by America) must be faced with a similar one. The dictatorship and terrorism (also supported by America) that some countries are practicing against their own people must also be faced with terrorism.

The American people must know, that their civilians who got killed are not better than those who are getting killed by the American weapons and support.

The American people are responsible for the actions of their government and they must question all of the crimes that their government is committing against other people. Or they — Americans — will be the targets of our operations that could diminish them.



Bin Laden basically aired the same message nearly a decade later..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pohemi

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
Then look at the bombing of the US military barracks (241 dead) in Lebanon by Hezbollah in 1983, an entity that was non-existent prior to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Lots of examples of US lives lost due to allowing Israels unchecked terrorism against 1000s of civilians.

Yet the unfettered supply of 2000lb bombs to kill more civilians keeps pouring in to Israel to this day.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pohemi

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,575
8,029
136
Yes problems will still exist, but nothing like the problems that Israel created for the US in terms of 1000s of US lives lost (directly and indirectly), economic and strategic setbacks, prestige and reputation being a puppet of a tiny state that controls its wars and foreign policies and DEFIES the US when told to stop.

And please, learn how to use terms like "strawman" properly in the areas it applies.

You argued against a point I didn't make and ran with it into the Liberty incident. It fits.

Now you can go on and call me a "zionist" or something similar.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
You argued against a point I didn't make and ran with it into the Liberty incident. It fits.

Now you can go on and call me a "zionist" or something similar.
If I may ask, do you view US all out support for Israel including endless supplies of the most deadly weapons that inflict high civilian death tolls in the US best interests? And that the US is doing so because it genuinely sees it in its best interests? Or because it has no choice and must follow the bidding of pro-Israel lobbyists that keep the politicians and decision makers in power?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,036
7,964
136
You mean the US is stuck with supplying Israels bombs requirements regardless how many civilians, women and children it kills. While knowing that it can seriously undermine its own interests and security when new terrorists spawn out of this seeking revenge for its policies. Like what Hamas did to the Israelis on Oct 7. And what Hamas or other terrorists may seek to do to the US in turn like Bin Laden.

When you say that we cant actually control or solve you basically mean the Israels have us by the nuts regardless of what they do including killing our own like they did in the USS Liberty attack. And you're fine with continuing to support them. Got it.


Despite trying to back-track the comments in this exchange, I can't quite figure out what this argument is about. But the "can't actually control or solve" bit is only partially correct. To actually fix the problem is clearly immensely difficult - I acknowledge it's a complex problem with victimhood and crimes on both sides - but the US could certainly play a less one-sided and destructive role in the conflict. They could have at least continued to _try_ to find a solution (as they have done periodically in the past).
The US supplies the munitions, and much of the funding to pay for them, that get dropped on Palestinians. That means you are involved whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pohemi

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,036
7,964
136
If I may ask, do you view US all out support for Israel including endless supplies of the most deadly weapons that inflict high civilian death tolls in the US best interests? And that the US is doing so because it genuinely sees it in its best interests? Or because it has no choice and must follow the bidding of pro-Israel lobbyists that keep the politicians and decision makers in power?

I don't think its either of those. The US takes a one-sided attitude because US culture is, and always has been, very racist. It's long been clear that Americans care about self-determination and opposing aggression only as long as the victims are white, and culturally similar to the dominant culture of the US. Hence the US sometimes finds itself on the right side by accident (as in 1941 and as in Ukraine) but often does not.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
Despite trying to back-track the comments in this exchange, I can't quite figure out what this argument is about. But the "can't actually control or solve" bit is only partially correct. To actually fix the problem is clearly immensely difficult - I acknowledge it's a complex problem with victimhood and crimes on both sides - but the US could certainly play a less one-sided and destructive role in the conflict. They could have at least continued to _try_ to find a solution (as they have done periodically in the past).
The US supplies the munitions, and much of the funding to pay for them, that get dropped on Palestinians. That means you are involved whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
How can the US find a solution when its beneficiary (Israel) is the one calling the shots? This whole argument is pointless without recognizing Israels tremendous hold on the US political system via its lobbyists (AIPAC). Whatever Israeli wants, it gets, plain and simple.

 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
A point I was making earlier...

Gaza war may stoke ‘generational’ terrorism threat, top intel official says

The top U.S. intelligence official on Monday warned that the war in Gaza could embolden terrorist groups, which are aligned in their opposition to the United States for its support of Israel.

“The crisis has galvanized violence by a range of actors around the world. And while it is too early to tell, it is likely that the Gaza conflict will have a generational impact on terrorism,” Avril Haines, the director of national intelligence, told an annual hearing on global security threats...

 
  • Like
Reactions: Racan and Pohemi

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,004
4,760
146
Plus you've been told 9-11 was because "they hate you for your freedoms". Hope you are a bit more enlightened now.
the freedoms to meddle with 3rd world countries for 100 years, exporting violence and death and exploiting them for resources, in the name of almighty capiltalism.
Freedom to back some genocidal fuckwits in the name of opposing the communist boogeyman.
Those are the "freedoms" that come to mind.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,036
7,964
136
the freedoms to meddle with 3rd world countries for 100 years, exporting violence and death and exploiting them for resources, in the name of almighty capiltalism.
Freedom to back some genocidal fuckwits in the name of opposing the communist boogeyman.
Those are the "freedoms" that come to mind.

Honestly, though I agree that was a part of it, I think it's more complicated than that. Certainly with respect to 911 specifically. Osama was at least equally motivated by a desire for Islamic dominance. He was angry that the world was dominated by that Western ideology, and that those Western capitalists got to boss everyone around, rather than the Islamic/Saudi elites being the ones in charge. Seems to me it was a clash between rival elites and rival aggressive ideologies.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,895
2,106
136
Didnt expect this. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, one of Israels staunchest dem supporters criticizes Netanyahu and calls upon Israelis to get rid of their RW govt in new elections:

He said Netanyahu is a "major obstacle to peace" and that "He has been too willing to tolerate the civilian toll in Gaza, which is pushing support for Israel worldwide to historic lows," Schumer said. "Israel cannot survive if it becomes a pariah."


I dont think it will make much of a difference who the leader is as they are all virtually unanimous in continuing the occupation and would never allow for a 2 state solution.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,573
29,191
146
Nice strawman, but no.

I'm saying that even if we cut Israel off now the "problems" would still exist. It's been there for a while, and it'll be there long after we're gone.

right, but the US pulling out sends a specific message. The US isn't going to solve these problems, but we don't have to keep participating in the slaughter.

Israel is no friend of the US, they never have been and have never acted in any way to suggest that they will have our backs when shtf. In fact, it's quite the opposite with their history.

I don't know why we insist that they are our friends and continue to support them, at all. It's monstrous. (well, I know: the Bloody Billions$$$ from AIPAC is why. fuck those cvnts. AIPAC needs to be declared a terrorist organization and dissolved)
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,015
26,892
136
Great way to possibly endanger the lives of US citizens ...
Meh. The building across the street from my office is occupied by an Israeli defense contractor. Two protests in the past couple months, no issues. Raytheon has seen multiple protests, no issues. Of course, that facility has the "shoot on sight" type security for anyone dumb enough to try to approach the weapons assembly or storage areas.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
531
126
The world is now seeing the US as the hypocritical, immoral and violent country that they are. This so-called ceasefire the US proposed at the UN was such a lie that many people are seeing it for what it is. Thankfully it was vetoed and therefore showed the world how disgusting US foreign policy is. The world sees that the US supports a genocidal, far right Israel and goes to many lengths to do so. Shameful.

The Chinese at the UN said that an immediate ceasefire is a necessity for delivering aid to the suffering Palestinians and that this US proposal would not help towards that. This is the case. The Chinese are correct and deserve credit.
But if you understand how much power the Israelis have over the US, this so-called ceasefire proposal makes sense.

The US should be embarrassed of itself. It is supporting and financing genocide and this ceasefire proposal was a joke.

"China's U.N. ambassador, Zhang Jun, criticized the text proposed by the U.S. for not clearly stating its opposition to a planned military operation by Israel in Rafah, which he said could lead to severe consequences. He said Beijing also supported the alternative." Reuters

So you know why US is afraid to tell Israel to immediately stop the genocide? Because Israel has too much power over US and US politicians are cowards.

Another terrible move by US and the whole world sees this. Actively supporting genocidal Israel by funding it, arming it and then protecting it at the UN. Not only this, the US is actively starving Palestinians by allowing Israel to block the many tons of aid waiting at the border crossings, which the Israelis are blocking.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,985
47,938
136
The world is now seeing the US as the hypocritical, immoral and violent country that they are. This so-called ceasefire the US proposed at the UN was such a lie that many people are seeing it for what it is. Thankfully it was vetoed and therefore showed the world how disgusting US foreign policy is. The world sees that the US supports a genocidal, far right Israel and goes to many lengths to do so. Shameful.

The Chinese at the UN said that an immediate ceasefire is a necessity for delivering aid to the suffering Palestinians and that this US proposal would not help towards that. This is the case. The Chinese are correct and deserve credit.
But if you understand how much power the Israelis have over the US, this so-called ceasefire proposal makes sense.

The US should be embarrassed of itself. It is supporting and financing genocide and this ceasefire proposal was a joke.

"China's U.N. ambassador, Zhang Jun, criticized the text proposed by the U.S. for not clearly stating its opposition to a planned military operation by Israel in Rafah, which he said could lead to severe consequences. He said Beijing also supported the alternative." Reuters

So you know why US is afraid to tell Israel to immediately stop the genocide? Because Israel has too much power over US and US politicians are cowards.

Another terrible move by US and the whole world sees this. Actively supporting genocidal Israel by funding it, arming it and then protecting it at the UN. Not only this, the US is actively starving Palestinians by allowing Israel to block the many tons of aid waiting at the border crossings, which the Israelis are blocking.
If you’re mad about genocide you’re going to be so mad about the Russians you support.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,811
531
126
China is now the leader of the world I think because we know the US are disrespected too much as a country. People know too much about US hypocrisy and criminal behaviors of the past. The past 70 years of regime change wars, occupations, etc have eroded America's role in world affairs. This is too bad but in a vacuum, other emerging powers will claim the title.

China clearly supports Palestinians much more than US and the Muslim world will have to see this. They should reconsider their relationship with the US.

"On March 7, 2024, Member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee and Foreign Minister Wang Yi elaborated on China’s position on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict when he met the press during the NPC and CPPCC sessions.

Wang Yi said that the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict has caused 100,000 civilian casualties, and countless innocent people remain buried under the rubble. There is no distinction between noble and humble lives, and life should not be labeled by race or religion. The failure to end this humanitarian disaster today in the 21st century is a tragedy for humanity and a disgrace for civilization. Nothing justifies the protraction of the conflict, or the killing of the civilian population. The international community must act promptly to promote an immediate ceasefire as its overriding priority and ensure humanitarian assistance as its pressing moral obligation. People in Gaza have the right to life in this world, and women and children deserve the care from their families. All detainees should be released, and all actions that harm civilians should be stopped.

Wang Yi said that the calamity in Gaza is another wake-up call for the world that the long occupation of the Palestinian territories is a fact that should not be ignored anymore, and that the long-cherished aspiration of the Palestinians for an independent state should not be evaded anymore. More importantly, the historical injustice to the Palestinians must not be allowed to continue uncorrected from generation to generation. Restoring justice to the Palestinian people and fully implementing the two-State solution is the only way to break the vicious cycle of Palestinian-Israeli conflicts, to eliminate the breeding ground of extremist ideologies, and to genuinely realize enduring peace in the Middle East.

China firmly supports the Palestinian peoples’ just cause of regaining their legitimate national rights, and is always committed to a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the question of Palestine. China supports Palestine’s full membership in the U.N., and urges certain U.N. Security Council member not to lay obstacles to that end. China calls for a more broad-based, more authoritative, and more effective international peace conference to work out a timetable and road map for the two-State solution. China believes that Palestine and Israel should resume peace talks as soon as possible to achieve the ultimate goal that they coexist in peace as two states and the Arab and Jewish peoples live in harmony as two ethnic groups. China will continue to work with the international community to restore peace, save lives, and uphold justice."


Thank you China for standing up to the genocidal countries of USA and Israel.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,985
47,938
136
China is now the leader of the world I think because we know the US are disrespected too much as a country. People know too much about US hypocrisy and criminal behaviors of the past. The past 70 years of regime change wars, occupations, etc have eroded America's role in world affairs. This is too bad but in a vacuum, other emerging powers will claim the title.

China clearly supports Palestinians much more than US and the Muslim world will have to see this.

"On March 7, 2024, Member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee and Foreign Minister Wang Yi elaborated on China’s position on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict when he met the press during the NPC and CPPCC sessions.

Wang Yi said that the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict has caused 100,000 civilian casualties, and countless innocent people remain buried under the rubble. There is no distinction between noble and humble lives, and life should not be labeled by race or religion. The failure to end this humanitarian disaster today in the 21st century is a tragedy for humanity and a disgrace for civilization. Nothing justifies the protraction of the conflict, or the killing of the civilian population. The international community must act promptly to promote an immediate ceasefire as its overriding priority and ensure humanitarian assistance as its pressing moral obligation. People in Gaza have the right to life in this world, and women and children deserve the care from their families. All detainees should be released, and all actions that harm civilians should be stopped.

Wang Yi said that the calamity in Gaza is another wake-up call for the world that the long occupation of the Palestinian territories is a fact that should not be ignored anymore, and that the long-cherished aspiration of the Palestinians for an independent state should not be evaded anymore. More importantly, the historical injustice to the Palestinians must not be allowed to continue uncorrected from generation to generation. Restoring justice to the Palestinian people and fully implementing the two-State solution is the only way to break the vicious cycle of Palestinian-Israeli conflicts, to eliminate the breeding ground of extremist ideologies, and to genuinely realize enduring peace in the Middle East.

China firmly supports the Palestinian peoples’ just cause of regaining their legitimate national rights, and is always committed to a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the question of Palestine. China supports Palestine’s full membership in the U.N., and urges certain U.N. Security Council member not to lay obstacles to that end. China calls for a more broad-based, more authoritative, and more effective international peace conference to work out a timetable and road map for the two-State solution. China believes that Palestine and Israel should resume peace talks as soon as possible to achieve the ultimate goal that they coexist in peace as two states and the Arab and Jewish peoples live in harmony as two ethnic groups. China will continue to work with the international community to restore peace, save lives, and uphold justice."


Thank you China for standing up to the genocidal countries of USA and Israel.
You’re going to be so mad when you find out what China does to its minorities.