Israel getting what it deserves

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
All of these arguments are rediculous. Nobody here knows whats going on there. All we know is from the media which bends "news" so far as to make it unrecognizable to those actually involved. And they bend it both ways.

That's kind of funny. In some countries such as Thailand, Indonesia, etc. hotels actually have signs saying "NO ISRAELIS". Not "NO JEWS" or something like that, but "NO ISRAELIS" because they are so damn rude and annoying. My friends who spent time in Israel told me about that.
While I may not be Israeli, I have lived there for a number of years, and I served with the IDF. I find your posts quite rude and annoying. Your "friends" need to get out more, Israelis are no more rude than any European tourists.
rolleye.gif
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
1
0
anybody for my question?

Does anyone think that you could "reasonably" apply some of the same the logic that the US used in using the atomic bomb during WWII to the palestinians using suicide bombs against the israelis? More specifically, since military service in mandatory for israeli males (females?) would discriminate bombing of large groups of israeli males be considered OK since they are, were, or would be part of the IDF force?

please take careful note of the specific aspect of my question if you choose to respond. :)
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: Lucky
anybody for my question?

Does anyone think that you could "reasonably" apply some of the same the logic that the US used in using the atomic bomb during WWII to the palestinians using suicide bombs against the israelis? More specifically, since military service in mandatory for israeli males (females?) would discriminate bombing of large groups of israeli males be considered OK since they are, were, or would be part of the IDF force?

please take careful note of the specific aspect of my question if you choose to respond. :)
I guess we are getting back into THAT argument. If Israel had information that this guy planning a large, horrific attack that would kill tens or hundreds of Israelis (which would make sense, being that this guy is a master terrorist by trade), then I totally support the Israeli action. Why should Palestinian civillians be more important than the Israeli civillians?
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
1
0
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Lucky
anybody for my question?

Does anyone think that you could "reasonably" apply some of the same the logic that the US used in using the atomic bomb during WWII to the palestinians using suicide bombs against the israelis? More specifically, since military service in mandatory for israeli males (females?) would discriminate bombing of large groups of israeli males be considered OK since they are, were, or would be part of the IDF force?

please take careful note of the specific aspect of my question if you choose to respond. :)
I guess we are getting back into THAT argument. If Israel had information that this guy planning a large, horrific attack that would kill tens or hundreds of Israelis (which would make sense, being that this guy is a master terrorist by trade), then I totally support the Israeli action. Why should Palestinian civillians be more important than the Israeli civillians?


Hmm...I dont understand how that answered any part of my question. :confused:
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Lucky
anybody for my question?

Does anyone think that you could "reasonably" apply some of the same the logic that the US used in using the atomic bomb during WWII to the palestinians using suicide bombs against the israelis? More specifically, since military service in mandatory for israeli males (females?) would discriminate bombing of large groups of israeli males be considered OK since they are, were, or would be part of the IDF force?

please take careful note of the specific aspect of my question if you choose to respond. :)
I guess we are getting back into THAT argument. If Israel had information that this guy planning a large, horrific attack that would kill tens or hundreds of Israelis (which would make sense, being that this guy is a master terrorist by trade), then I totally support the Israeli action. Why should Palestinian civillians be more important than the Israeli civillians?

Hmm...I dont understand how that answered any part of my question. :confused:

You are right. I misunderstood your question, i read it too rapidly. My bad. :) Please disregard.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would sacrifice anyone for her
___________________________

Spoken like a true Palestinian.

Of course, only Palestinians are capable of love. Really, I thought you had at least 1 braincell, I guess I was wrong in thinking that.
meaning doing anything to protect their loved ones
that was his point

Then he should also have understanding for Sharon's point of view, he feels he is protecting his loved ones by eliminating the ones organizing the bombings, even at the expense of Palestinian children.

Neither side is good for killing innocents, that doesn't mean you can't see why they do it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Hayabusarider, you have to understand that being right is more important than other people's children. When you have an evil enemy their children don't count as much as our personal need to justify hate. Please understand, I wouldn't hate them if they weren't scum. It's the fact that they are scum that makes it OK to hate. The only kind of bad hate is the kind scum do when they kill us. The possibility that somebody might blow me up, wants to blow me up makes me nervous. I am too important to be troubled like that so their kids must die. I have nightmares they will kill somebody I love, somebody good. Scum has to die so I don't have to have such bad dreams. I am a reasonable man. I gave them lots of chances, but they are just no good. You understand don't you. The land is mine. I shouldn't have to think about what I do to take it. I must be free of guilt. I should never have to feel bad. I already feel so bad you can't even imagine. Try to understand.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Neither side is good for killing innocents, that doesn't mean you can't see why they do it.
--------------------------------------------

Oh man, some things people say just crack me up.

On the positive side, you're right. I do see why they do it. That's what makes it so appalling.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hayabusarider, you have to understand that being right is more important than other people's children. When you have an evil enemy their children don't count as much as our personal need to justify hate. Please understand, I wouldn't hate them if they weren't scum. It's the fact that they are scum that makes it OK to hate. The only kind of bad hate is the kind scum do when they kill us. The possibility that somebody might blow me up, wants to blow me up makes me nervous. I am too important to be troubled like that so their kids must die. I have nightmares they will kill somebody I love, somebody good. Scum has to die so I don't have to have such bad dreams. I am a reasonable man. I gave them lots of chances, but they are just no good. You understand don't you. The land is mine. I shouldn't have to think about what I do to take it. I must be free of guilt. I should never have to feel bad. I already feel so bad you can't even imagine. Try to understand.

Yes M, I do understand. That is what bothers me about myself. Being human I can see this. I wish it were beyond my comprehension.
 

rendicil

Member
Apr 7, 2002
58
0
0
Originally posted by: Slovin8


Yes, and when Israel military bombs civilians, on Sharon orders, to get one man and killing 9 children in the process, they are no different than Hamas, not a bit.

If Israel chooses to act like Hamas, it should be treated as such.

Oh yeah cause when people use their families as shields great things happen.... And how many children have palestinians killed??

:disgust:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
I think, Hay, that innocence poses the threat of a fall. I don't think you can transcend or truly conquer the self, the ego self, the false self, without intimate and full awareness of just how dangerous that self is. There is no going back. We have to go through. The person stripped of everything, I think, is like a sun.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would sacrifice anyone for her
___________________________

Spoken like a true Palestinian.

Of course, only Palestinians are capable of love. Really, I thought you had at least 1 braincell, I guess I was wrong in thinking that.
meaning doing anything to protect their loved ones
that was his point

Then he should also have understanding for Sharon's point of view, he feels he is protecting his loved ones by eliminating the ones organizing the bombings, even at the expense of Palestinian children.

Neither side is good for killing innocents, that doesn't mean you can't see why they do it.
then if Sharon wants to protect his own people then why is he building extra settlments in Palestinian land where they are in great danger?
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
theres a difference between going after a CURRENT military target and going after an entire people because they are the enemy. after all, in all wars all civilians are potential military conscripts if the war lasts long enough. all civilians support the military structure. so that justifies genocide from the start according to palestinian thought. women and children, even though they don't fight on the front lines, they must die. these are people that would shoot the fetus inside a israeli womans belly if they could.
so full of hate :(
Hatred is the most poisonous human emotion. It blocks the capacity to empathise that lies at the heart of human association. It turns the object of the hatred into just that - an object. It robs the hater of his or her fundamental human quality - humanity. In so doing, it opens the door to the most callous and depraved acts that one human being can commit against another.

so full of moral relativism... :p

i am neither jewish or palestinian, or religious in any way. i do not hate, i do however see much hate from palestinians. enough to send suicide bombers after children. i see twisting of logic to justify palestinian inhumanity, i see wrong. i see an entire entire body of thought promoted by the palestinians and their warefare through justified genocide. i see wrong.

The same twisting of logic applies to the very same acts you defend...

Palestinians aren't inhuman, neither israelis, but when terrorist leaders on both sides decides that this war has to have civilian casualties it is wrong... You cannot, even with the best of will say that the Israelis did not target civilians...



by that logic, you cannot say that the US did not target civilians in its war against the taliban. :roll

It is pointless arguing with you, i am saying both sides commit crimes against humanity when they bomb civilians, you think only Israel has the right to do so...

I ask you, if the Palestines (not hamas) were to send a bomb into a city to kill who they think is a terrorist, Sharon, and killing several civilians while doing so, would you still stand by your statement? Would you still say that "in a war against terrorists you have to break a few eggs"?

I stand by my statement in both directions, i do not have to choose sides here, both are guilty of terrorism as far as i am concerned...
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: rendicil
Originally posted by: Slovin8


Yes, and when Israel military bombs civilians, on Sharon orders, to get one man and killing 9 children in the process, they are no different than Hamas, not a bit.

If Israel chooses to act like Hamas, it should be treated as such.

Oh yeah cause when people use their families as shields great things happen.... And how many children have palestinians killed??

:disgust:
as shields? as far as I know he was at his home with his family when the IDF dropped a 1 tonne(sp?) bomb on his house that demolished his house and the surrounding buildings, the only ones who where in his house were his family, the rest killed where in the surounding buildings.
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I wish I were wise enough to fix this, but I know I am not smart enough to know how I should feel. I am in love with the idea of happiness, for everyone, but especially for children. Here it seems I am to choose which children die in the arms of their parents. Do I side with the Israelis or the Palestinians? Who do I choose to suffer? Someone help me pick. I need to know which side "deserves" this misery.

You don't HAVE to choose sides at all, you can condemn the actions of both sides at the same time... That is what i do, NO innocent civilians deserve this misery...
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: rendicil
Originally posted by: Slovin8


Yes, and when Israel military bombs civilians, on Sharon orders, to get one man and killing 9 children in the process, they are no different than Hamas, not a bit.

If Israel chooses to act like Hamas, it should be treated as such.

Oh yeah cause when people use their families as shields great things happen.... And how many children have palestinians killed??

:disgust:

Another poster who hasn't read the thread at all... and obviously knows very little about the bombing...

NOBODY here disputes that Palestinian terrorists have killed children, NOBODY here says anything else than that it is horrible... BUT, it is just as horrible when the Israelis do the same thing...

And if you knew anything about the actual bombing, you would know that the people injured weren't just his family and that the bombing of civilians alongside with the Hamasleader was intentional...
 

jackpot

Member
Jul 11, 2002
66
0
0
I just love reading posts about right and wrong in war with unexperienced moralists. Ofcourse nobody wants innocent civilians to die. It just happens sometimes. Other times it is because of a dangerous mission that puts civilians at risk. I hear a lot of intellectuals yell "WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE!!! WHERE!?!?!" I ask, what about in the opposite direction? 15 civilians die in an attack. You guys are worried about 150 or 1500 civilians in the next attack. I'm worried that israel won't retaliate, and lets itself be terrorised by hamas and friends. Reminds me of the holocaust. That's what I'm scared of. I don't have an answer for peace, but I think it is only human to retaliate when being attacked.

I can see the parellels to WWII. I'm no veteran, and I've never been in war so I don't pretend to know everything. But, it just flames me to see people accusing the US to be "in the wrong" about dropping the nuke. It doesn't take much analysis to say that killing that many innocent civilians is wrong. What you guys don't understand is sacrifice and prevention. You guys post on here with hindsight and think you're geniouses, but the truth is, you don't know what would have happened if they didn't attack Japan. Neither did they back then, so it came down to fear and opinion. Well, we have a lot of opinion on this board and not a lot of fear, why? Because almost none of you here were involved (or alive) in WW2 or the middle east today. You're just sitting at your computers across the world in canada, iceland, or the US thinking "logically" and "morally" about war. Look who's in contradiction now.

bah, waste of time
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0


I'm worried that israel won't retaliate, and lets itself be terrorised by hamas and friends. Reminds me of the holocaust. That's what I'm scared of. I don't have an answer for peace, but I think it is only human to retaliate when being attacked.

I'm worried they will, then Hamas will, then Israel will... the neverending story... i can think of a good peaceful solution, they simply stop killing eachother...

I wonder if you could describe just EXACTLY this is like the holocaust, it involves Jews being killed, but nothing more...

Is it human to defend yourself when being attacked, sure, retaliate even, but if so, against the real enemy, killing innocent people has nothing to do with retaliation, if i kill your mom you kill mine and the problem is solved?

 

justint

Banned
Dec 6, 1999
1,429
0
0
Originally posted by: ThePresence
All of these arguments are rediculous. Nobody here knows whats going on there. All we know is from the media which bends "news" so far as to make it unrecognizable to those actually involved. And they bend it both ways.

That's kind of funny. In some countries such as Thailand, Indonesia, etc. hotels actually have signs saying "NO ISRAELIS". Not "NO JEWS" or something like that, but "NO ISRAELIS" because they are so damn rude and annoying. My friends who spent time in Israel told me about that.
While I may not be Israeli, I have lived there for a number of years, and I served with the IDF. I find your posts quite rude and annoying. Your "friends" need to get out more, Israelis are no more rude than any European tourists.
rolleye.gif


My friends are American Jews and a couple of Israelis who went over/came here for a summer abroad program. I am just relaying what they told me. I have no personal experience with Israeli tourists to back that up, I just know that they have those signs and that is the reason for them.

What about my posts do you find so rude and annoying?
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
But killing civilians is wrong, killing is NEVER, NEVER justified.
Here's a piece to think about:
http://www.the-idler.com/IDLER-02/7-25.html shows why the Israelis were right to consider Salah Shehada as a legitimate military target. It doesn't show why it was all right to consider anyone within 100 yards of him a target. Put it this way: suppose the Palestinians decided to target a settlement leader as a legitimate enemy target (and yes, I know, the Palestinians consider anyone in a settlement a legitimate enemy target; leave that for the moment) and decide to kill him by killing everyone in the settlement, men, women, and children. Would the Israelis, or anyone else, say, well, it was unfortunate but there it is?

Perhaps so. Collateral damage, or civilian casualties, are inevitable in war, and God knows the United States, from having been the champions of the Laws of War in the 19th Century was the instrument of their total overthrow in the 20th. There was universal condemnation of the bombing of Nanking and Rotterdam and other cities as WW II began; by its end we would glory in the fire raids that destroyed much of Tokyo. Is dropping incendiary bombs into a residential neighborhood a more legitimate act of war than firing a missile at an apartment containing an enemy leader -- or blowing up a settlement with everyone in it?

To our credit, when we decided -- wrongly in my view -- to intervene in Somalia by trying to apprehend General Adid, we didn't carpet bomb the city. We sent in heroes. Black Hawk down! And went in with more to get them out. Perhaps there would have been fewer casualties -- certainly fewer American casualties, but possibly fewer Somali as well -- if we'd just hosed down the area Adid was in with machine guns and rockets; would that have been preferable?

War is a dirty business. Sherman said war is hell, and meant it, and intended to see that everyone in the South accepted that fact. End the war by any means necessary: if that requires the bombing of Nanking, or Rotterdam, or Coventry, or Berlin, or Tokyo, or Dresden, then so be it; and the long tradition of International Law and the Laws of War begun by Hugo Grotius after the horrors of the Thirty Years War was a mistake best ended quickly. That was Sherman's view, and it was the view of Roosevelt and Churchill. It is the view of the Palestinian leadership. And apparently the view of the Israeli leadership as well.

The logic is this: best end it quickly. Following the Laws of War only prolongs the war, leaves people with the illusion that they can fight on, that the peasants in the field and the burgers in the towns can be safe while war rages on, and this is no longer true. End it. Hiroshima saved lives: Japanese as well as American. And of course that is true.

But it is true only if we accept the "Unconditional Surrender" war aims as legitimate; the Japanese would have negotiated peace long before 1945. They would have accepted the loss of all their overseas conquests, and heavy war reparations in the bargain, and even the occupation of some of their homeland (so long as that didn't include threats to the person of the Emperor) by mid-1944. With Germany the situation was similar: had the Allies broadcast peace terms that didn't include the dismemberment and occupation of Germany, Hitler wouldn't have lasted long after Stalingrad.

But without unconditional surrender and occupation, Macarthur in Japan and Lucius Clay in Germany would not have become American proconsuls charged with rebuilding those countries into liberal democracies and thus helping bring about the end of history...

My point is this: the Laws of War can endure if defeat is endurable; if the war aims of the victors do not include the total destruction of the enemy. If one side's war aim is extermination and enslavement of the other, as was usually the case in classical warfare, then there are no Laws of War, and the only military courtesies to be extended to a defeated enemy are to his mercenary officers and those of his troops who might join your army. All else is booty including women and children.

In the Middle East the war aims of the Palestinians do appear to be the extermination of Israel as a state, and if you listen to some of the Palestinian spokespeople, the physical extermination of the Israelis. The Israeli war aims, as expressed in the long and ultimately futile Peace Process, were some kind of negotiated stable arrangement. Unfortunately, during that peace process the Israelis sent mixed signals: the Settlements, which weren't just strategic border incursions, but were islands of hostility all through the occupied territories: and whose existence was not apparently on the negotiating table. And so long as those exist and expand, the Palestinians may legitimately believe that the Israeli war aims are unlimited.

If each side believes the other to have unlimited war aims and the ultimate goal of extermination, enslavement, or expulsion of the other from the area, then defeat is not acceptable, and the Laws of War do not apply.
Jerry Pournelle

Personally, I haven't forgotten that the Palestinians danced in the streets as the WTC towers fell. The Israelies mourned. That makes choosing sides easy.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: jackpot
I just love reading posts about right and wrong in war with unexperienced moralists. Ofcourse nobody wants innocent civilians to die. It just happens sometimes. Other times it is because of a dangerous mission that puts civilians at risk. I hear a lot of intellectuals yell "WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE!!! WHERE!?!?!" I ask, what about in the opposite direction? 15 civilians die in an attack. You guys are worried about 150 or 1500 civilians in the next attack. I'm worried that israel won't retaliate, and lets itself be terrorised by hamas and friends. Reminds me of the holocaust. That's what I'm scared of. I don't have an answer for peace, but I think it is only human to retaliate when being attacked.

I can see the parellels to WWII. I'm no veteran, and I've never been in war so I don't pretend to know everything. But, it just flames me to see people accusing the US to be "in the wrong" about dropping the nuke. It doesn't take much analysis to say that killing that many innocent civilians is wrong. What you guys don't understand is sacrifice and prevention. You guys post on here with hindsight and think you're geniouses, but the truth is, you don't know what would have happened if they didn't attack Japan. Neither did they back then, so it came down to fear and opinion. Well, we have a lot of opinion on this board and not a lot of fear, why? Because almost none of you here were involved (or alive) in WW2 or the middle east today. You're just sitting at your computers across the world in canada, iceland, or the US thinking "logically" and "morally" about war. Look who's in contradiction now.

bah, waste of time
great post btw :)

the point with all these arguments here I think is that there are people who say that Israel has a right to kill civilians to do what they do while the Palestinians dont and those of us that are thinking "logically" and "morally" about this say that they dont and if they do the Palestinians have a right to kill civilians just as the Israelis do.

 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: jackpot
I just love reading posts about right and wrong in war with unexperienced moralists. Ofcourse nobody wants innocent civilians to die. It just happens sometimes. Other times it is because of a dangerous mission that puts civilians at risk. I hear a lot of intellectuals yell "WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE!!! WHERE!?!?!" I ask, what about in the opposite direction? 15 civilians die in an attack. You guys are worried about 150 or 1500 civilians in the next attack. I'm worried that israel won't retaliate, and lets itself be terrorised by hamas and friends. Reminds me of the holocaust. That's what I'm scared of. I don't have an answer for peace, but I think it is only human to retaliate when being attacked.

I can see the parellels to WWII. I'm no veteran, and I've never been in war so I don't pretend to know everything. But, it just flames me to see people accusing the US to be "in the wrong" about dropping the nuke. It doesn't take much analysis to say that killing that many innocent civilians is wrong. What you guys don't understand is sacrifice and prevention. You guys post on here with hindsight and think you're geniouses, but the truth is, you don't know what would have happened if they didn't attack Japan. Neither did they back then, so it came down to fear and opinion. Well, we have a lot of opinion on this board and not a lot of fear, why? Because almost none of you here were involved (or alive) in WW2 or the middle east today. You're just sitting at your computers across the world in canada, iceland, or the US thinking "logically" and "morally" about war. Look who's in contradiction now.

bah, waste of time
great post btw :)

the point with all these arguments here I think is that there are people who say that Israel has a right to kill civilians to do what they do while the Palestinians dont and those of us that are thinking "logically" and "morally" about this say that they dont and if they do the Palestinians have a right to kill civilians just as the Israelis do.

That would exclude me... Even if one side kills civilians, the other side has no right to do so.... killing innocents because the other side did the same is not retaliation, it is just lowering yourself to their level... no matter who does it, or why, doesn't make it alright...
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: SnapIT
That would exclude me... Even if one side kills civilians, the other side has no right to do so.... killing innocents because the other side did the same is not retaliation, it is just lowering yourself to their level... no matter who does it, or why, doesn't make it alright...
same here actually, my point is that you cant go and hate the palestinians because they kill civilians when you just ignore it or even support it when Israelis do it.
 

jackpot

Member
Jul 11, 2002
66
0
0
Originally posted by: SnapIT
I'm worried that israel won't retaliate, and lets itself be terrorised by hamas and friends. Reminds me of the holocaust. That's what I'm scared of. I don't have an answer for peace, but I think it is only human to retaliate when being attacked.

I'm worried they will, then Hamas will, then Israel will... the neverending story... i can think of a good peaceful solution, they simply stop killing eachother...

I wonder if you could describe just EXACTLY this is like the holocaust, it involves Jews being killed, but nothing more...

Is it human to defend yourself when being attacked, sure, retaliate even, but if so, against the real enemy, killing innocent people has nothing to do with retaliation, if i kill your mom you kill mine and the problem is solved?

No, the jews being involved is only a coincidence....or is it? :) When I see the jews during WW2, I see passive people who wouldn't revolt against their german captures even though they were enslaved and then slaughtered in the millions. That is a tradegy not unlike the black slave situation our world had known for hundreds of years. One ended in complete tradegy because America acted too late to stop them, and the other ended slowly yet suddenly with an executive order by Lincoln. Following this story, the blacks achieved equality a hundred years later through passive resistance, even though they were being linched and killed by whites without punishment.

If you ask me, that is how you beat that type of conflict. First through a government proclamation, and then slowly through peaceful display. Repeat if necessary.

The arabs are fighting over land claiming a religous war that will not be over till israel is irradicated, the black didn't even have their freedom but fought peacefully to gain it back throughout a hundred years. Which do you have more respect for?