Israel / Gaza Thread

Page 30 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Zebo come up with the old adage, "muzzle Israel huh? Good luck with that. Never corner a bear."

That may be well true, in terms of the Israeli bear, cutting off US support and aid is all that is needed to starve the Israeli bear.

Most USA bears are in zoo's now, and read the signs, do not feed the bears. And when wild bears come too close to civilization, letting them have free access to garbage is not wise.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Cheer up THE ISRAELIS JUST SHELLED UN HEADQUARTERS IN GAZA ALSO.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ml_israel_palestinians

At least the Israeli defense minister admitted that might be a whoops we got careless.


I hate to disappoint you, but I think Israelis are doing this for the Lulz.

oh so sorry, UN-- here's some WP up your ass

The head of the UN aid agency in Gaza has accused the Israeli military of firing what was believed to be white phosphorus shells at its compound.

John Ging told the BBC that in spite of discussions with the Israeli liaison, "three rounds that emitted phosphorus" hit a corner of the Gaza City facility.

Israel's military said all weapons it used complied with international law.

Phosphorus shells are legal to use as a battlefield obscurant, but are banned from use where civilians may be harmed.

Human Rights Watch says it has observed "dozens and dozens" of white phosphorus shells being fired by Israel at the Gaza Strip - a heavily populated civilian area where its use is prohibited.


Palestinian medical officials said they had treated large numbers of casualties with unusual burns that were extremely painful to treat and could be consistent with exposure to white phosphorus (WP).

The Israeli military has declined to comment on specific munitions used during the 20-day offensive, but said any its weapons were used in compliance with international law.

There is no way independently to explain the contradiction between both sides' reports, as Israel has prevented international journalists from entering Gaza since its offensive began on 27 December.

'Relentless bombardment'

In an interview with the BBC, Mr Ging, director of operations in Gaza for the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), said the area surrounding its compound had been under "relentless artillery and tank bombardment all night and all day".

Some rounds, Mr Ging said, had struck a part of the compound where about 700 residents of nearby blocks of flats were taking shelter. Three people were injured in the bombardment.


"Then an hour later, in spite of our protests and real-time discussions with the Israeli liaison, three rounds that emitted phosphorous struck the other corner of the compound," he added.

The compound is Unrwa's main distribution hub in Gaza and Mr Ging said the shells set alight part of a warehouse in which there were stored thousands of tonnes of food and medicine, and the workshop area.

The fires then threatened to engulf five fuel tankers, which had been due to be sent out that morning, but could not leave because it was too dangerous outside.

"When the fires broke out, five of our brave staff dashed down there and moved the trucks out of the area, so we avoided a massive explosion," he said.

Mr Ging told CNN the fire was very difficult to extinguish because the smoke from WP becomes toxic if water is used.

Following the incident, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon - in Israel to push for a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip - expressed his "outrage" and demanded a full explanation from the Israeli government.

"The defence minister said to me it was a grave mistake and he took it very seriously. He assured me that extra attention will be paid to UN facilities and staff and this will not be repeated," Mr Ban said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the compound had been targeted after militants had opened fire from there.

"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologise for it," he said. "I don't think it should have happened and I'm very sorry."

'Indiscriminate'

White phosphorus sticks to human skin and will burn right through to the bone, causing death or leaving survivors with painful wounds which are slow to heal.

The international convention on the use of incendiary weapons says it should not be used where there is a possibility of hitting civilians. An Israeli military spokesman said it was investigating the reports, but reiterated earlier assurances about the legality of its weaponry.


White phosphorus is permitted on the battlefield to make smoke screens to allow troops to move undetected, and also to impede infrared anti-tank weapons.

But its use in the densely populated areas of central Gaza City would be "unlawful", as it dispersal would be indiscriminate and could put civilians at risk, says Human Rights Watch military analyst Marc Garlasco.

"The Israeli military may be using legal weapons, but it is using the weapons in an illegal manner," Mr Garlasco told the BBC News website.

He said he had observed dozens and dozens WP shells used by the Israeli army over Gaza since 27 December, both ground-burst shells and air-burst, scattering distinctive burning lumps of phosphorus which left white smoke trails.

"We are absolutely certain this is white phosphorus, this is the singular, unique visual signature of white phosphorus on the battlefield. Not only have I seen it for myself but I have checked with US artillery," Mr Garlasco added.

Mr Garlasco also examined a press photograph which showed a burning lump of matter in the UN compound. He said it "definitely appeared" to be WP, but that the photo was not detailed enough to say with complete certainty.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Israel is going all out without regard to anything or anyone. America is probably secretly endorsing this terrorist attack on the Palestinians by not speaking out against it. In the end, violence will not resolve the conflict. In fact, Israel has probably created more enemies.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the compound had been targeted after militants had opened fire from there.

like I said, Israel has a map of Israel, wherever they see a missile or mortar launch, they shoot it.

tell the fucking idiot hamas, which dont care about the people, to stop using the civilians as shields.

Israel is putting the ball down on hamas. they arent hesitating to fire in this conflict and this has shown it.

now while I agree, and so does israel, that shooting the building was wrong, hamas was using it to try and shoot and get away it attacks
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you agree with the phrase "Death to Hamas!" ?

I want to bring death to the factors which drive terrorists like Hamas. Killing off Hamas members, along with anyone in their vicinity, while continuing to keep Palestinians caged up like livestock as Israel colonizes their land out from under them, is only making their ideology stronger.
LOL.. a simple yes/no would have sufficed... but I see you chose to dance around the question instead.

gg.

If figured my answer wouldn't be small minded enough for you to grasp.

 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the compound had been targeted after militants had opened fire from there.

like I said, Israel has a map of Israel, wherever they see a missile or mortar launch, they shoot it.

tell the fucking idiot hamas, which dont care about the people, to stop using the civilians as shields.

Israel is putting the ball down on hamas. they arent hesitating to fire in this conflict and this has shown it.

now while I agree, and so does israel, that shooting the building was wrong, hamas was using it to try and shoot and get away it attacks


Umm... but you did read the part where the UN was explicitly telling the IDF that civilians were sheltering in the building--a gesture responded to with the firing of 3 chemical weapon shells at the UN compound within the hour (where civilians and aid workers (also civilians) are sheltering).

Did you misread that? I guess that the UN is in cahoots with terrorists, and was letting Hamas fire from the grounds while the UN tries to deal with the blaze endangering civilians and humanitarian supplies?

I read up on the incident over at "unbiased" Jerusalem Post, and the comment section from "unbiased Israelis" was full of quotes to the tune of "Nuke the UN, and the BBC."

Stay classy, Israel.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: fallout man
...chemical weapon shells...

White phosphorus shells are not chemical weapons, they are incendiary weapons. It is illegal to use incendiary weapons in civilian areas though, so the point remains that what Israel did here was clearly wrong.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: fallout man
...chemical weapon shells...

White phosphorus shells are not chemical weapons, they are incendiary weapons. It is illegal to use incendiary weapons in civilian areas though, so the point remains that what Israel did here was clearly wrong.

They're magical weapons that turn chemical/incendiary when used near civilians.

You can put your hand into a bucket of gasoline, but I doubt anyone would volunteer to touch a small clump of WP. Sounds chemical to me.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
I wouldn't want to touch an ignited clump, but as long as it is wet it isn't rightly anything more to fear than gasoline. I wouldn't want to put my hand in an ignited bucket of gas either.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Please calm down and try to remain rational here, then note that I said I have no fear of touching a wet clump of white phosphorus. A wet clump isn't notably harmful to touch.

What you are showing is the results of ignited white phosphorus, which happens when it is dry and exposed to oxygen, and those are the results of an incendiary weapon.

On the other hand I wouldn't want to put my hand in a jar of sarin gas, which is a chemical weapon, and just coming in contact with it will likely kill a man.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Zebo come up with the old adage, "muzzle Israel huh? Good luck with that. Never corner a bear."

That may be well true, in terms of the Israeli bear, cutting off US support and aid is all that is needed to starve the Israeli bear.

Most USA bears are in zoo's now, and read the signs, do not feed the bears. And when wild bears come too close to civilization, letting them have free access to garbage is not wise.
LOL

Well Israel has the Sampson option and second strike capability as well because of subs. It's well known they would take the rest of the world with them if pushed to the wall. That's why USA supports them, so they never have to rely on their arsenal. If you cage Israel, which I question the efficacy of since GDP/cap rivals most first worlders even cutting US subsidy still puts them at Italy levels, they would be forced into an unimaginable scenario. --- "We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under." General Moshe Daya
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I'm not some Palestine-Israeli expert, and I rarely argue about the "facts" because I think both sides have created their own history about the situation. However, I am firmly convinced that Israel just wants to be left the hell alone.

I think the Gaza campaign is an acceptable conflict resolution approach if Israel successfully obliterates Hamas from the face of the earth. No civilized nation (nor one with any common sense) would vote for a Hamas government. The Hamas charter is public knowledge. The Palestinians in Gaza knew what would eventually happen so it's hard to feel sorry for them. They flaunt the children killed in collateral damage by the Israeli Army yet celebrate when their children are successful suicide bombers. I don't see Hamas dropping leaflets when they are going to setoff rockets or send in the next suicide bomber.

I remember the pictures of the candy being handed out on 9/11 and the parades of children dressed as suicide bombers. I remember the picture of that kid holding his bloodied hands out the jail window to the applause of the masses below after he and a mob kicked, pulled and stomped two unarmed Israeli National Guard soldiers to death in their cell.

Terming something acceptable or unacceptable requires some identification of the point of view from which the evaluation is being made. From the Israeli perspective, and frankly at this point, most international perspectives, the Gaza campaign must be acceptable at some level...I don't see anyone, including Arab countries, marshalling significant DIME resources to actually stop it. It certainly doesn't help that post-cease fire mortars and rockets continued to fall in Israel...which has softened the anti-Israel crowd and hardened the anti-Palestinian crowd.

Concessions and aide to the Palestinians by Israel (and many other countries) has resulted in more rockets, suicide bombings, and previously habitable infrastructure vacated by the Israelis becoming squalid tenements and rubble within months. Regardless of history and 1948 or religious differences, "civilized" cultures and nations do not behave as Hamas continues to behave.

Hamas may have to be dealt with like dandelions or kudzu; if you want to prevent their spread and takeover of your ground, you sometimes have to exercise a "scorched earth" approach to provide for future prosperity of that ground, or in the case of Hamas and Israel, that region.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think its long past due for the rest of the world to tell Israel to get out of Gaza or Israel will get a taste of the same.
from who?

Are you suggesting that their actions may result in an attack of some sort?

:confused:

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you agree with the phrase "Death to Hamas!" ?

I want to bring death to the factors which drive terrorists like Hamas. Killing off Hamas members, along with anyone in their vicinity, while continuing to keep Palestinians caged up like livestock as Israel colonizes their land out from under them, is only making their ideology stronger.
LOL.. a simple yes/no would have sufficed... but I see you chose to dance around the question instead.

gg.

I figured my non-answer wouldn't be small minded enough for you to grasp.
fixed.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Hamas may have to be dealt with like dandelions or kudzu; if you want to prevent their spread and takeover of your ground, you sometimes have to exercise a "scorched earth" approach to provide for future prosperity of that ground, or in the case of Hamas and Israel, that region.
:thumbsup:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm not some Palestine-Israeli expert, and I rarely argue about the "facts" because I think both sides have created their own history about the situation. However, I am firmly convinced that Israel just wants to be left the hell alone.
...

Israelis want to be left alone, but their leaders are determined not to leave Palestine alone. Granted, if you are just going on emotion you are never going to see that, and there is a lot of propaganda to sort through. However, if you take the time to sort past that propaganda and look at the hard facts, I assure you that you will see that what I am saying is true. here are some relevant facts:

Since 1967 Palestine has been under Israeli military control while being colonized by Israeli civilian settlers.

Millions of Palestinians are kept defenceless in a collection of pens like livestock thought their homeland.

Hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers build communities all over Palestinian territory and Israeli-only expressways to allow free movement between them.

This process of colonization over the last four decades, promoted with tax incentives and housing subsidies, continues with no signs of stopping, as seen here:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Beliving Israel wants peace isn't going to end this conlifct as long as Israeli leaders are actively wiping Palestine off the map.
 

AstroGuardian

Senior member
May 8, 2006
842
0
0
I agree with TheSnowman. It's the same thing with Macedonia and Greece. In 1945 Greece cased territory from Macedonia, did exodus and killed thousands of Macedonians. Then greek settlers came and changed all macedonian names of the cities with greek. The even changed the name of the macedonian capital from Solun to Tessaloniki.

So i agree with Beliving Israel wants peace isn't going to end this conlifct as long as Israeli leaders are actively wiping Palestine off the map.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm not some Palestine-Israeli expert, and I rarely argue about the "facts" because I think both sides have created their own history about the situation. However, I am firmly convinced that Israel just wants to be left the hell alone.
...

Israelis want to be left alone, but their leaders are determined not to leave Palestine alone. Granted, if you are just going on emotion you are never going to see that, and there is a lot of propaganda to sort through. However, if you take the time to sort past that propaganda and look at the hard facts, I assure you that you will see that what I am saying is true. here are some relevant facts:

Since 1967 Palestine has been under Israeli military control while being colonized by Israeli civilian settlers.

Millions of Palestinians are kept defenceless in a collection of pens like livestock thought their homeland.

Hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers build communities all over Palestinian territory and Israeli-only expressways to allow free movement between them.

This process of colonization over the last four decades, promoted with tax incentives and housing subsidies, continues with no signs of stopping, as seen here:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Beliving Israel wants peace isn't going to end this conlifct as long as Israeli leaders are actively wiping Palestine off the map.

The process is not that simple. The so called Israeli colonization of land is perfectly justified due to incessant hostile attacks from those areas- (1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 and all the terror in between and to this day)... History has lots of presidence for this such as taking , finally once and for all, Alsace-Lorraine and Alto-Adige from an aggressive Germany. The rules shouldn't stop applying when it comes to Israel.

Israelis also have every right to those lands Arabs are occupying also because it was given to them by mandate and then stolen shortly after discovery of oil in ME by pressure bore on international community by the oil Kingdoms.

Take a look at these successive maps and see how Palestine (which was to be a Jewish national home) kept shrinking until finally, realizing their impending doom, Israel took on both the British and the Muslims and made their own little statelet within their Palestine Mandate.
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
More than whatever Zebo said in this above post, , his signature line says more with, "Self esteem is earned not given -Grandpa RIP 1/13/09@98 years young and a awesome man! I love you."

It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Missing in action is any moral justifications for the mighty military deeds.

If the distinction seems to sail over Zebo's head, there should be some prepared to remind him of those distinctions, as many Palestinians have become third class citizens in the land of their birth, simply by being born in the wrong group.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
More than whatever Zebo said in this above post, , his signature line says more with, "Self esteem is earned not given -Grandpa RIP 1/13/09@98 years young and a awesome man! I love you."

It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Missing in action is any moral justifications for the mighty military deeds.

If the distinction seems to sail over Zebo's head, there should be some prepared to remind him of those distinctions, as many Palestinians have become third class citizens in the land of their birth, simply by being born in the wrong group.

I find this to be a most despicable post, claiming not to compare his grandfather with Hitler and then doing so. Debate the issue for a change instead of comparing anyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, especially someone who has passed away.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
The latest callous and misguided attack:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor...iddle_east/7831424.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article5526929.ece

This shows once again that Israel is little better than their enemies - a deliberate attack on a UN base which contained only food supplies and aid workers. This time nobody has even bothered to claim there were Hamas sheltering in the building. The illegal white phosphorous shells were clearly intended only to set fire to the food and horribly cripple anyone attempting to save it. Shame on Israel.

On the same day:

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...e-demands-1397089.html

Despite the horrors of the retaliation Hamas still refuses to stop the rocket attacks. What do they hope to gain? If they were to declare an end to all attacks on civilians and Israel still continued it's offensive, they might just find international support growing, but instead they continue their senseless and ineffective action. Shame on Hamas.


Originally posted by: Lemon law
It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Way, way out of line...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
More than whatever Zebo said in this above post, , his signature line says more with, "Self esteem is earned not given -Grandpa RIP 1/13/09@98 years young and a awesome man! I love you."

It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Missing in action is any moral justifications for the mighty military deeds.

If the distinction seems to sail over Zebo's head, there should be some prepared to remind him of those distinctions, as many Palestinians have become third class citizens in the land of their birth, simply by being born in the wrong group.

Hey asshole, that quote you use has nothing to do with this thread or war or Hitler, It;s something my grandfather used to say to us about school work or just about anything in life when we were growing up - as in you get A's or whatever you'll feel better though achievement - not listening to naysayers or even false accolades your teachers and parents give you. Now kindly go fuck yourself you worm.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Atheus
The latest callous and misguided attack:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor...iddle_east/7831424.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article5526929.ece

This shows once again that Israel is little better than their enemies - a deliberate attack on a UN base which contained only food supplies and aid workers. This time nobody has even bothered to claim there were Hamas sheltering in the building. The illegal white phosphorous shells were clearly intended only to set fire to the food and horribly cripple anyone attempting to save it. Shame on Israel.

On the same day:

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...e-demands-1397089.html

Despite the horrors of the retaliation Hamas still refuses to stop the rocket attacks. What do they hope to gain? If they were to declare an end to all attacks on civilians and Israel still continued it's offensive, they might just find international support growing, but instead they continue their senseless and ineffective action. Shame on Hamas.


Originally posted by: Lemon law
It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Way, way out of line...

Number 1, phosphorous is not illegal and the intent according to one of the articles you cite was to shoot back when fired upon.

Number 2, the Israelis were taking fire from the compound. They have every right to shoot back.

Number 3, yes it was a deliberate attack since the Israelis were taking fire.

Number 4, the Israelis were not deliberately targeting civilians. But war in built up urban areas inevitably leads to civilian casualties. If Hamas actually cared about their own people, they would come out from behind the civilians, and stand up to the Israelis.

"Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, said that the military had fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from inside it. ?It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologise for it. I don?t think it should have happened and I?m very sorry,? Mr Olmert said. "



If it proves the Israelis were wrong and they were not taking fire from the compound, then I will agree with you that it was a callous disregard for civilians. I happen to think in war massive response is better than pi$$ing on your enemy.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Lemon law
More than whatever Zebo said in this above post, , his signature line says more with, "Self esteem is earned not given -Grandpa RIP 1/13/09@98 years young and a awesome man! I love you."

It would be wrong of me to compare Zebo's grandpa with Hitler, but if Hitler had won, he too would have done much to Earn his own self esteem with deeds.

Missing in action is any moral justifications for the mighty military deeds.

If the distinction seems to sail over Zebo's head, there should be some prepared to remind him of those distinctions, as many Palestinians have become third class citizens in the land of their birth, simply by being born in the wrong group.

Hey asshole, that quote you use has nothing to do with this thread or war or Hitler, It;s something my grandfather used to say to us about school work or just about anything in life when we were growing up - as in you get A's or whatever you'll feel better though achievement - not listening to naysayers or even false accolades your teachers and parents give you. Now kindly go fuck yourself you worm.

IMO, this would be grounds for vacation. A long, restful vacation. We can argue and disagree, even quite passionately, but LL owes Zebo a major apology at the least posted in the Personal Forum Issue area.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,459
10,735
136
Originally posted by: dphantom
IMO, this would be grounds for vacation. A long, restful vacation. We can argue and disagree, even quite passionately, but LL owes Zebo a major apology at the least posted in the Personal Forum Issue area.

It?s difficult to remain civilized when conversing with people whose entire existence here is to protect the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, and every other Islamic extremist group with blood on its hands. All the while they demonize the opponents of those groups.

When our demands of forcing terrorists into a ceasefire, to surrender or die, are compared to Hitler and genocide, things become quite personal just as they would in real life. It is what happens when the two different sides of a war meet.