Israel / Gaza Thread

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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Duwelon
You said earlier: "There was nearly a million Jews living peacefully all across Muslim lands prior to the State of Israel establish in 1948 after driving hundreds of thousands of Arabs off that land to colonize it. "

Yes I did say that, because it is a fact.

Originally posted by: Duwelon
If you have an issue with Israel colonizing the west bank, then you have issue with Israel colonizing... Israel, correct?

Israel is legally Israeli territory under international law. I have no issue with that.

The West Bank and Gaza are legally Palestinian territory under international law. I do take issue colonization of any territory out from under it's population, be it Israel's colonization of the West Bank or otherwise.

Originally posted by: Duwelon
By your own words you fault the violence in Israel to the Israeli's colonization of the west bank, but you still cite the same hatred alive in the very existence of Israel proper.

Israel's colonization of Israel was completed long ago, and hatred for past misdeeds fades away with time.

Israel's colonization of the West Bank continues, and Israel's caging off of Gaza as they do, constantly breeds more hatred towards Israel.

Originally posted by: Duwelon
If the west bank became another state, by definition of your own words, violence against Israel would still be warranted.

You aren't understanding my words there, I don't justify violence in such ways.

If Israel could bring itself to accept Palestine's right to exist in the West Bank and Gaza, reciprocal recognition of Israel and peace would be warranted.

 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
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Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: JS80
anti-zionism = anti-semitism.

lol - I think you'll find there's some dispute about that.

Some? He'll find a lot. For him to imply Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism would mean that Zionism and Semitism were not mutually exclusive, THEY ARE.

1st: The often heard overused argument, I am Arab, I am a Semite, I don't self-hate. Yes, I know anti-Semitism refers to "Jew haters" in its modern use, but that's just as irrational a revision as anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism. What do you say of Jews against Zionism? Are they anti-Semites?

2nd: http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/whatzionism.cfm
Zionism and Judaism are two completely foreign concepts. Up until the turn of the 20th century, the common Jewish view was that they should NOT return to the Holy Land under self-governance given that it was against the teachings of the Torah.

3rd: If you think you gained anything by calling me anti-Semitic, you didn't.
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: JS80
anti-zionism = anti-semitism.

lol - I think you'll find there's some dispute about that.

Some? He'll find a lot. For him to imply Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism would mean that Zionism and Semitism were not mutually exclusive, THEY ARE.

1st: The often heard overused argument, I am Arab, I am a Semite, I don't self-hate. Yes, I know anti-Semitism refers to "Jew haters" in its modern use, but that's just as irrational a revision as anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism. What do you say of Jews against Zionism? Are they anti-Semites?

it just goes to show you how eurocentric and european the jews in Israel are, they are NOT part of the middle east to be calling arabs anti-semitic since they'e blatantly ignorant that arabs are semitic. They are completly ignorant of the region, & i'd say they should go back to europe where they belong.... but the europeans were a million times worst to them than the arabs ever were. How long have jews lived in the middle east and when was there ever a holocaust? Oriental jews identified themselves as ARAB JEWS long before the creation of israel, something that irks european jewry, especially zionists.

 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
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0
Originally posted by: poohbear
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

I recall reading a article from jpost.com, I got the impression that Rice screwed up and wasn't supposed to vote for the resolution in the first place.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Originally posted by: poohbear
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

Actually he did not take an order...he was asked by Olmert and he complied with the request!!

I see no issue except for you trying to make an issue out of nothing!!

 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: screech
Arab land? As in, you think the Arab countries have any interest in the west bank or gaza strip?
He is referring to the 4 million Palestinian Arabs living in those territories, as well as the other few million in refugee camps in surrounding nations. Those Palestinian have never ceded their right to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but Israel is continuing to colonize the former out from under them anyway while holding them captive across both.

I thought they ceded them when the surrounding 5-6 countries declared war on Israel back in 48\67.....

It is interesting to read some comments here, but I wonder what action America would take if surrounded by enemies since created?, would they allow the existing people to stockpile weapons, and live happily ever after, NO, they DIDNT, they took all the land and pushed them to small settlements around the country.
The only difference between America and Israel, in that Israel has had people there for over 3500 years.
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: poohbear
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

Actually he did not take an order...he was asked by Olmert and he complied with the request!!

I see no issue except for you trying to make an issue out of nothing!!

This is what olmert was quoted as saying, he said he TOLD him, not ASKED, or can't you read English??

the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.


"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."


bold and underlined sentences added to highlight it for u, i can't imagine it'd be any clearer to you?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: poohbear
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: poohbear
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

Actually he did not take an order...he was asked by Olmert and he complied with the request!!

I see no issue except for you trying to make an issue out of nothing!!

This is what olmert was quoted as saying, he said he TOLD him, not ASKED, or can't you read English??

the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.


"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."


bold and underlined sentences added to highlight it for u, i can't imagine it'd be any clearer to you?

The problem is when talking to president Bush I seriously doubt he DEMANDED Bush do something...
Use some common sense......sheese.....
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: poohbear
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: poohbear
i just read this crazy newstory in which PM olmert is openly saying he ORDERED bush not to vote in favor of a UN resolution and Bush basicly obeyed him. It's quoting him word for word and its just insane if its true:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp...za_olmert_us_rice_lead

i know that every US administration always sides with Israel because of lobby groups like AIPAC and Jewish monetary influence in politics in America, but actually taking direct orders from an Israeli PM? American foreign policy has literally been hijacked.

Actually he did not take an order...he was asked by Olmert and he complied with the request!!

I see no issue except for you trying to make an issue out of nothing!!

This is what olmert was quoted as saying, he said he TOLD him, not ASKED, or can't you read English??

the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.


"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."


bold and underlined sentences added to highlight it for u, i can't imagine it'd be any clearer to you?

The problem is when talking to president Bush I seriously doubt he DEMANDED Bush do something...
Use some common sense......sheese.....

First u tell me he does NOT tell bush but that he ASKS him, then when i prove u wrong w/ olmert's OWN words u ask me to use common sense? lol i dont know what else i can show you???? if i showed u a frame by frame video of olmert telling bush what to do you'd prolly tell me its edited/manipulated video. You are so convinced of your own ideas that nothing i can say, or even OLMERT HIMSELF says, will convince u otherwise. just stop bothering reading these forums cause u're not here to learn anything new, u're so caught up in your own bias that even when the Israeli PM's own words are quoted u tell me to turn away and use "common sense". gimme a break.


Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: ranmaniac
Chief Rabbi advocates carpet bombing of Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter


And muslim clerics call for the complete destruction of anyone who doesnt think allah-snackbar is the ruler of the universe.


What is your point?

name one? osama bin laden doesnt even say that. he calls for the destruction of secular middle eastern dictators, israel, and american presence in the middle east. but i've never read him, or "alqaeda", calling for the complete destruction of non muslims that have nothing to do w/ the middle east. i hear western right wingers say it all the time though, except the extreme right wingers, they usually blame the jews.

you just love to smear the truth and keep things in black & white dont u? if things are too complicated u get confused right? racism is easy for you so u can categorizse the world, stereotypes make sense because they simplify the world, and calculus just has too many numbers used in wierd ways, right?

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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All sides on this thread seem to suffer from a common logical fallacy.

To put it symbolically.

(1) We have a situation where group A and group B have a dispute.

(2) Some given person argues group A did something wrong in the past or is doing something wrong now.

(3) And the logically fallacy starts when point#2, valid or not, is used to either say or imply (a) therefore we should support group B. (2) Or to even imply that point #2 says anything at all about group B.


And in the case of the middle East, if we start out with the assumption that Arabs, Israelis, and Palestinians are all very deep in the wrongs, IMHO, it just makes understanding the conflict easier as we can then ask, what is now a fair settlement?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
All sides on this thread seem to suffer from a common logical fallacy.

To put it symbolically.

(1) We have a situation where group A and group B have a dispute.

(2) Some given person argues group A did something wrong in the past or is doing something wrong now.

(3) And the logically fallacy starts when point#2, valid or not, is used to either say or imply (a) therefore we should support group B. (2) Or to even imply that point #2 says anything at all about group B.


And in the case of the middle East, if we start out with the assumption that Arabs, Israelis, and Palestinians are all very deep in the wrongs, IMHO, it just makes understanding the conflict easier as we can then ask, what is now a fair settlement?

With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory. Simple as that. These decades long sieges upon one another are just the precursor to that. This whole war is a joke anyway by relative proportions and media attention. IMO totally based on old hatreds and the oil lobbies influence. For example the conflict in Sri Lanka, with similar issues, has claimed some 70,000 lives since 83' and it goes virtually unnoticed. An order of magnitude more lives than the whole 100 years of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Not to mention places like Rawanda where 10,000 were killed in one night. Or Darfur -250K. Or the Syrian Hama Massacre 25K. and on and on.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: Cheeseplug
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Cheeseplug
How can you blame Palestinians for shooting rockets at Israel? Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since the Israelis pulled out in 2005. The flow of food, water, electricity, and lots of other supplies has been controlled or limited by Israel. The Israeli's have acted like animals during this current war, shooting at marked UN vehicles and shelling schools full of civilians. It is easy to say that Israel can justify the atrocities because rockets have been hitting them sporadically, but you need to look at why the rockets are being shot in the first place.

And how can the US prop up Israel to the tune of $2.5 billion a year when the 20% Arab minority in the actual country of Israel that are treated as second class citizens compared to the Jewish majority? How can it be a functioning democracy when not all of the citizens are treated equally?

Qassam rocket attacks started in 2001, not 2005.

Israel have every right to blockade Gaza just like Syria has blocked trade with Israel since 1967. No nation is forced to trade with one another. In fact most Arab nations have a blockade against Israel. Where is the protests of this overt rasicm? Does Israeli have to right to fire rockets into Saudi or Syria at schools and Mosques now? Somehow I think you're answer would be quite hypocritical.

In Israel there are about 1.5 million Arabs. How many Jews live in Jordan? None! In Saudi Arabia? None! In the Gaza strip? None! Many killed and the rest forceably expelled. Meanwhile, in Israel, courts have enforced equal rights of Arabs to buy land and houses in Jewish areas. In Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, selling land or houses to a Jew is a CAPITAL CRIME!! So who exactly treat whom as second class citizens?


And please please spare me the pieties and the righteous indignation of those "poor Gazans? ...guys like you called it ?peace? as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying. Suddenly, as Israel answered back, you found your 'Cause.' And the name is antisemitism. As usual, at the first hint of Jewish self-defense, how quickly those like you and most of the world show their true colors.

The rockets started in 2001 because Gaza was occupied by Israel, it wasn't just waking up one day and saying "hey, lets shoot at Israel."


The difference between the blockade between Israel and Gaza and blockades with other countries in the region is that Israel had been the source of all food, water, electricity, medicine and everything else. Gaza was held at the mercy of Israel for years.

I don't know why you are bringing up other countries and their laws, I didn't say I supported any of them. The fact is there is a 20% arab minority that lives in Israel. Everything about Israel is Jewish from the flag on down. The Arabs have never gotten a chance to share power in Israel, and have hardly any representation in the civil services. They are second class citizens, and the US is funding that.

Don't try to make me look like a Jew hating pro-hamas person, I am not that. Hamas are assholes but so are the Israelis. I would be just as outraged in the Jews were being killed. The Israelis are and have been acting as animals. The IDF hasn't been going that far out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, they have dropped pamphlets and such but do you realize how many people are in Gaza and how small it actually is?


Why is it the United State's responsibility to prop up Israel? Why do we protect them but do nothing to help out in Congo, Central African Republic, Sudan or the other parts of Africa where genocide and war are the norm?

I disagree. Israel has no obligation to trade anything with anyone let alone an enemy devoted to it's destruction. Many nations don't trade with each other over hostile relations. But they don't go to war over that stance like Hamas chose to.

As far as USA supporting them. I'm a libertarian on foreign policy so please get rid of it and to Egypt and everyplace else but remember US also puts a lot of conditions on that support. Israel would have solved it's Arab problem after 1967 if it wernt for USA's demanding compromise.

It's a HUGE problem not ending those other much more deadly wars and genocides. But the All-Israel-All-The-Time UN puts it on the back burner if not outright ignoring these atrocities, especially those committed by Muslims. Why do you think many think the UN is a joke? It's not the lack of enforcement body or USA funding the whole thing or even the big 5's veto power. It's the oil states and their Western heirlings controlling agenda with an almost singular Israeli focus.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: poohbear


Originally posted by: Ocguy31




And muslim clerics call for the complete destruction of anyone who doesnt think allah-snackbar is the ruler of the universe.


What is your point?

name one? osama bin laden doesnt even say that. he calls for the destruction of secular middle eastern dictators, israel, and american presence in the middle east. but i've never read him, or "alqaeda", calling for the complete destruction of non muslims that have nothing to do w/ the middle east. i hear western right wingers say it all the time though, except the extreme right wingers, they usually blame the jews.

you just love to smear the truth and keep things in black & white dont u? if things are too complicated u get confused right? racism is easy for you so u can categorizse the world, stereotypes make sense because they simplify the world, and calculus just has too many numbers used in wierd ways, right?


Did someone just argue that they are not preaching Wahhabi Islam, and there is not a "holy-war" against the West?

I have officially seen it all.

Hey, you better mention that to our right-wing nutjob President-elect, because he is going to go hard after AQ in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and around the ME.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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While Zebo makes a semi-valid point by advocating or saying, "With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory. Simple as that."

And if we just confine it as a simple Israeli v. the Palestinian people type question, if we can some how stomach the extermination of some 3 million Palestinians as a mere ripple in the pond in the larger sweep of human history, it may be doable given Israeli military power. Or maybe we just prefer that the Palestinians slowly starve to death, or better yet, grow gills and swim away.

But if we view it as a larger Arab v. Israeli problem, Zebo has basically assumed the State of Israel must perish, because in the larger sweep of human history, seven million jews with that number not growing fast can't possibly withstand 300 million Arabs growing angrier at Israel with the passing of every day. And all kinds of Stateless terrorists coming from all points of the compass will keep firing rockets even if Hamas can be neutralized.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I see it as WWIII Free World Allies being China India Japan USA & Israel vs. Fascist Axis meaning the Muslim ummah and Europe once they gain control of Europe's armories via demographic conquest all in about 40 years. In the meantime 1000 here 1000 there is just keeping the pilot light on.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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0
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Zebo makes a semi-valid point by advocating or saying, "With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory. Simple as that."

And if we just confine it as a simple Israeli v. the Palestinian people type question, if we can some how stomach the extermination of some 3 million Palestinians as a mere ripple in the pond in the larger sweep of human history, it may be doable given Israeli military power. Or maybe we just prefer that the Palestinians slowly starve to death, or better yet, grow gills and swim away.

But if we view it as a larger Arab v. Israeli problem, Zebo has basically assumed the State of Israel must perish, because in the larger sweep of human history, seven million jews with that number not growing fast can't possibly withstand 300 million Arabs growing angrier at Israel with the passing of every day. And all kinds of Stateless terrorists coming from all points of the compass will keep firing rockets even if Hamas can be neutralized.
Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess.

That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil...
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
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Originally posted by: Zebo
I see it as WWIII Free World Allies being China India Japan USA & Israel vs. Fascist Axis meaning the Muslim ummah and Europe once they gain control of Europe's armories via demographic conquest all in about 40 years. In the meantime 1000 here 1000 there is just keeping the pilot light on.

nm. i keep telling myself not to get involved in P&N. wtf
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Palehorse makes two rather dubious contentions, by saying:

"Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess." ( Which is a somewhat perfect over reliance on that assumption and a perfect explanation of why we are failing in Afghanistan. Military might does not win a single heart or mind, when the local population hates that military might and vastly outnumbers the maintainers of military might, staying in a given location can only be maintained by constant military might. Maybe maintainable by the stronger military power short term, but never in the long term, and therefore an assumption that never wins. )

"That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil..." ( Well Duh, exactly what has already happened to the Palestinian people from 1948 to the present. And now as Israel colonizes more and more land, there is no place left to put them as the ghetto they have allocated gets smaller and smaller. If nothing else, be honest and label it for what it is, GENOCIDE. )

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Military might does not win a single heart or mind

JFC... Did we try "to win the hearts and minds" of Germans? hell no we bombed those 'krauts' children and cities until they begged for mercy, killed millions of them. More the better until they sued for peace. 'Japs' the same. You know nothing zero notta about warfare. That said I appreciate your naivete for it's humanitarian aspect, now if we can only get 'the other side' to think like you we'd have world peace.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Military might does not win a single heart or mind

JFC... Did we try "to win the hearts and minds" of Germans? hell no we bombed those 'krauts' children and cities until they begged for mercy, killed millions of them. More the better until they sued for peace. 'Japs' the same. You know nothing zero notta about warfare. That said I appreciate your naivete for it's humanitarian aspect, now if we can only get 'the other side' to think like you we'd have world peace.


This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.