Israel / Gaza Thread

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Zebo makes a semi-valid point by advocating or saying, "With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory. Simple as that."

And if we just confine it as a simple Israeli v. the Palestinian people type question, if we can some how stomach the extermination of some 3 million Palestinians as a mere ripple in the pond in the larger sweep of human history, it may be doable given Israeli military power. Or maybe we just prefer that the Palestinians slowly starve to death, or better yet, grow gills and swim away.

But if we view it as a larger Arab v. Israeli problem, Zebo has basically assumed the State of Israel must perish, because in the larger sweep of human history, seven million jews with that number not growing fast can't possibly withstand 300 million Arabs growing angrier at Israel with the passing of every day. And all kinds of Stateless terrorists coming from all points of the compass will keep firing rockets even if Hamas can be neutralized.

Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess.

That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil...

It's sad, and deplorable, when stopping a terrorist organization is regarded as Genocide. What reason do they have for that level of distortion, besides sympathizing with them?

We say stop Hamas from killing people. They scream bloody murder. Sort of like how Hamas itself would react to the idea of stopping it. This is where the line between Hamas and its sympathizers starts to blur, when they echo the same propaganda.

 

[Freshgeardude]

and still continues...

LINK


show the world more hamas how much of pigs you guys really are

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

No, it doesnt fly. Again, if the native Americans started suicide bombing US shopping malls, they would be arrested/shot/jailed, with sympathy only from the bleeding-hearts.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

I like this game. My turn.

If you don't want your people caged like cattle stop suicide bombing cafes.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Zebo makes a semi-valid point by advocating or saying, "With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory. Simple as that."

And if we just confine it as a simple Israeli v. the Palestinian people type question, if we can some how stomach the extermination of some 3 million Palestinians as a mere ripple in the pond in the larger sweep of human history, it may be doable given Israeli military power. Or maybe we just prefer that the Palestinians slowly starve to death, or better yet, grow gills and swim away.

But if we view it as a larger Arab v. Israeli problem, Zebo has basically assumed the State of Israel must perish, because in the larger sweep of human history, seven million jews with that number not growing fast can't possibly withstand 300 million Arabs growing angrier at Israel with the passing of every day. And all kinds of Stateless terrorists coming from all points of the compass will keep firing rockets even if Hamas can be neutralized.

Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess.

That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil...

It's sad, and deplorable, when stopping a terrorist organization is regarded as Genocide. What reason do they have for that level of distortion, besides sympathizing with them?

We say stop Hamas from killing people. They scream bloody murder. Sort of like how Hamas itself would react to the idea of stopping it. This is where the line between Hamas and its sympathizers starts to blur, when they echo the same propaganda.

while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

I like this game. My turn.

If you don't want your people caged like cattle stop suicide bombing cafes.

lol you will go back till like 1900 with thesnowman. I had this arguement with him already. it came down to, jews returning back to their homeland and arabs not liking it

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

They removed themselves from Gaza 3 years ago. Care to rephrase that?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

To take it one step futher

Do not go to war with the loser and expect charity from the victor.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

You have to consider their upbringing. Therer is no personal responsiliby required for the people that mean to do you harm. Did you not learn anything from the "Social Responsibility" classes created in the 60/70's? One is required to turn the other cheek no matter what the other intends on doing you harm.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

yet, if 9/11 occurred this year during the election period, no way a guy named Barack Husein Obama would EVER win.

the US still amazes me

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

I like this game. My turn.

If you don't want your people caged like cattle stop suicide bombing cafes.

I fucking LOVE this game. There hasn't been a suicide bombing in years. And the cage only got smaller, and harder to get out of the longer they went without one. Your point?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

You have to consider their upbringing. Therer is no personal responsiliby required for the people that mean to do you harm. Did you not learn anything from the "Social Responsibility" classes created in the 60/70's? One is required to turn the other cheek no matter what the other intends on doing you harm.

Yes, and the real American thing to do is label all one billion Muslims as one and the same! Way to go, here's a

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

yet, if 9/11 occurred this year during the election period, no way a guy named Barack Husein Obama would EVER win.

the US still amazes me

Further reinforcing your own racism, be my guest.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
while this is true, I would have to agree that colonization in the west bank is occuring.

he is pretty intellectual, but I am glad I ripped the other BS off of him over the course of 2 ish nights, till now where he understands my POV.

everyone else on the other hand hasnt shown any sign of an intellectual person, most of it is anti-semetic/zionist people speaking their normal BS

Perhaps it's just that, I am still amazed that Americans can align themselves with the sort of Islamic extremists that killed 3,000 of us.

You have to consider their upbringing. Therer is no personal responsiliby required for the people that mean to do you harm. Did you not learn anything from the "Social Responsibility" classes created in the 60/70's? One is required to turn the other cheek no matter what the other intends on doing you harm.

Yes, and the real American thing to do is label all one billion Muslims as one and the same! Way to go, here's a

I see not one word about Muslim in my post.
My sarcasm is addressed to those that defend the militants.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

Call me an extremist for predicting an escalation in violence there. Like there's not amble evidence these parties can not ever get along combined with increasing lethality of weaponry as time goes on I guess I'm just way off base. :roll:

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Zebo
With this level of disagreement it won't end until one side scores a genocidal type victory.

This from a guy who claims he is not an extremist. Again you prove yourself just as vile as Hamas.

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
This. Civilians die during war. If you dont want your children to die, dont start lobbing rockets.

I agree with that. Can you agree with this:

If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

?

I like this game. My turn.

If you don't want your people caged like cattle stop suicide bombing cafes.

I fucking LOVE this game. There hasn't been a suicide bombing in years. And the cage only got smaller, and harder to get out of the longer they went without one. Your point?

your point? I hate to repeat myself, but Ill say it again

if I shoot at you 200 times and miss 199 times, but 1 grazes your arm and you live, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?

hell no, just as it is not ok for anyone to commit a suicide bombing, and even if there havent been any in recent times, according to some people, Israel should get "revenge" for the people who died and start an attack to kill x amount of people who died per attack? no then a conflict occurs like what is happening now.

 

[Lemon law]

Get a clue, tit for tat violence has been the one constant here since 1948 and before. As long as Israel asserts its them or the Arabs, Israel may temporarily subdue Hamas, but Fatah came before Hamas, and if Hamas does not do the job, other terrorist organization will replace Hamas. Read your history, Fatah was using rockets in the 1970's. Nothing new here. Only better rocket technology changes.

Guess who Al-Quida sides with, Israel.

As Al-Quida sides against what ever Shias do. And are trying to make inroads with various Palestinian groups.

Of course we can assert the right of bank robbers to self defense, if it trips your trigger. After all they are holed up in the bank with all the gold. And cannot possibly understand why enraged cops are shooting at them and trying to uphold justice.

And its a little hard to cite anti-sematism when the Palestinians are a sematic people too.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
No, it doesnt fly. Again, if the native Americans started suicide bombing US shopping malls, they would be arrested/shot/jailed, with sympathy only from the bleeding-hearts.

We stopped colonizing what little land Native Americans still have left and started honoring there rights long ago, but some attacked us until we finally did.

Israel continues to colonize the vast majority of what is still legally Palestinian territory under international law, while millions of Palestinians are pinned in like cattle in little cages around that territory.

Are you incapable of comprehending this difference here?

Originally posted by: JS80
I like this game. My turn.

If you don't want your people caged like cattle stop suicide bombing cafes.

This is no game, it is reality, and it works on the rules of cause and effect.

The caging people in like cattle started long before the suicide bombings.

Do you not understand this fact, or are you just playing games in an attempt to ignore it?

Originally posted by: Zebo
Call me an extremist for predicting an escalation in violence there. Like there's not amble evidence these parties can not ever get along combined with increasing lethality of weaponry as time goes on I guess I'm just way off base. :roll:

I call you an extremist for condoning an escalation in violence, and for your all your tortured logic behind doing so, I call you willfully ignorant as well.

 

[kylebisme]

Oh yeah, I forgot to reply to this one:

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
If you don't want rockets lobbed at you, don't cage people in like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.

They removed themselves from Gaza 3 years ago. Care to rephrase that?

My phrasing is correct, and I'm happy to elaborate:

Gaza is one of the little cages which Israeli leaders have let fall into chaos as a distraction while continuing to colonize much of the rest of Palestine in the West Bank, where many other little cages exist under much stricter Israeli military control.

Here is a recent map showing the West Bank, the Palestinian "cages" in brown with limited Israeli authorized Palestinian administrative control, while the blue is kept under full Israeli military control:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Understood?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Palehorse makes two rather dubious contentions, by saying:

"Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess." ( Which is a somewhat perfect over reliance on that assumption and a perfect explanation of why we are failing in Afghanistan. Military might does not win a single heart or mind, when the local population hates that military might and vastly outnumbers the maintainers of military might, staying in a given location can only be maintained by constant military might. Maybe maintainable by the stronger military power short term, but never in the long term, and therefore an assumption that never wins. )

Those 300,000,000 people can't do jackshit to Israel if Israel's military can beat the shit out of their own... only if those 300M people decide to fund a stronger military would Israel's military be in jeopardy. THAT was my point. As usual, you missed it...

"That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil..." ( Well Duh, exactly what has already happened to the Palestinian people from 1948 to the present. And now as Israel colonizes more and more land, there is no place left to put them as the ghetto they have allocated gets smaller and smaller. If nothing else, be honest and label it for what it is, GENOCIDE. )

Let me clarify: They might need to be deported (expelled) to Syria, Egypt, or beyond -- locations where any rockets would be considered acts of war by the nations themselves. As in, Israel should completely take over the Gaza Strip and force other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian refugees.

Otherwise, Hamas and others will continue to strike at Israel from within -- forever. Nothing short of the destruction of Israel would satisfy such groups, so the only possible solution is expulsion or death.

If you think any peace agreements or other Isreali concessions would satisfy groups like Hamas, or states like Iran, then you're absolutely nuts.

The conflict will not end until one group, or the other, is gone from the region... one way, or another.

 

[SolMiester]

Its my understanding that if the West Bank was returned primarily to the Palestinians, it would turn into a highway for arms from Israeli neighbours?, is that not correct?

While I understand masters usually clean the cages of animals who soil them, I think it a bit extreme to classify the Palestinians as animals, though I admit the rearing of their young for suicide and terrorism is beyond animal savagery. Perhaps neutering would help?

 

[kylebisme]

dp

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SolMiester
Its my understanding that if the West Bank was returned primarily to the Palestinians, it would turn into a highway for arms from Israeli neighbours?, is that not correct?

If you look at the history of this conflict, you will see that is simply a misconception.

When Israel conquered what little territory Palestinians still hold legal right to in 1967, they immediately imposed strict military occupation and started colonizing it directly. Only in 1987, after decades of Israel showing no intent to stop, effectively denying Palestine's right to exist, did Palestinian popular resistance rise up against them in the First Intifada. That was which was mostly fought by Palestinian youth throwing rocks at solders. Decades after that, and shortly after the farce that was the Camp David II "peace offer", came the Second Intifada in 2000, when the suicide bombings started getting particularly frequent. As Israel took efforts to stop that, then the rocket attacks picked up, and here we are today with mass chaos there now.

Considering that history, Israel simply withdrawing their civilian settlers would go a long way to reduce the attacks against Israel. Military occupation should remain as the reality of of Israel's recognition of Palestine's right to exist sets in, and those few who still insist on attacking Israel can be more easily captured or killed, and there will be less motivation for others to take their place.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
While I understand masters usually clean the cages of animals who soil them, I think it a bit extreme to classify the Palestinians as animals, though I admit the rearing of their young for suicide and terrorism is beyond animal savagery. Perhaps neutering would help?

That method has been used in a few situations in recent history to deny people of their right to exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

However, if we stated recognising their right to exist, they would finally have better things to raise there children to become.

Surely the latter is the better option here?

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Palehorse makes two rather dubious contentions, by saying:

"Population does not matter as much as military strength and prowess." ( Which is a somewhat perfect over reliance on that assumption and a perfect explanation of why we are failing in Afghanistan. Military might does not win a single heart or mind, when the local population hates that military might and vastly outnumbers the maintainers of military might, staying in a given location can only be maintained by constant military might. Maybe maintainable by the stronger military power short term, but never in the long term, and therefore an assumption that never wins. )

Those 300,000,000 people can't do jackshit to Israel if Israel's military can beat the shit out of their own... only if those 300M people decide to fund a stronger military would Israel's military be in jeopardy. THAT was my point. As usual, you missed it...

"That said, I'd never encourage genocide. I might, however, condone organized deportation (expulsion) of every Palestinian from Israeli soil..." ( Well Duh, exactly what has already happened to the Palestinian people from 1948 to the present. And now as Israel colonizes more and more land, there is no place left to put them as the ghetto they have allocated gets smaller and smaller. If nothing else, be honest and label it for what it is, GENOCIDE. )

Let me clarify: They might need to be deported (expelled) to Syria, Egypt, or beyond -- locations where any rockets would be considered acts of war by the nations themselves. As in, Israel should completely take over the Gaza Strip and force other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian refugees.

Otherwise, Hamas and others will continue to strike at Israel from within -- forever. Nothing short of the destruction of Israel would satisfy such groups, so the only possible solution is expulsion or death.

If you think any peace agreements or other Isreali concessions would satisfy groups like Hamas, or states like Iran, then you're absolutely nuts.

The conflict will not end until one group, or the other, is gone from the region... one way, or another.

What if the Palestinians don't want to go? You will still throw them out? What if they still won't go? Will you jail them or do something else to them?

People are saying that Egypt should take them in, but what if the Palestinians want Palestine and not Egypt? Are we doing this for the benefit of the Palestinians or some other motive?

 

[Lemon law]

Once again palehorse demonstrates his shallow understanding of the entire mid-east issue by Stating "Let me clarify: They might need to be deported (expelled) to Syria, Egypt, or beyond -- locations where any rockets would be considered acts of war by the nations themselves. As in, Israel should completely take over the Gaza Strip and force other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian refugees.

Otherwise, Hamas and others will continue to strike at Israel from within -- forever. Nothing short of the destruction of Israel would satisfy such groups, so the only possible solution is expulsion or death.

If you think any peace agreements or other Isreali concessions would satisfy groups like Hamas, or states like Iran, then you're absolutely nuts.

The conflict will not end until one group, or the other, is gone from the region... one way, or another."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The palehorse delusion is and remains the idea that only the Palestinians protests are driving the the anti-Israeli sentiments in the mid-east , when in fact, both the Israeli and surrounding Arabs are somewhat shamelessly using the Palestinians who are more like like pawns than actual players. With the other implied palehorse delusion being the idea if Israel can somehow exterminate the last living Palestinian, Arab acceptance for the State of Israel would be the new reality and a new era of mid-east peace would occur.

And to frost the cake, palehorse seems to think that a puny State like Israel is capable of using its military superiority to try to occupy a nation like Iran with a 75 to 7 million population advantage, or that surrounding Arab States would sit idly by. In other words, it would go over about as well as your delusions regarding Afghanistan. There is no fool like an old fool. Israel is sadly in a box, with a non expanding population, they are far too small to ever even try to secure a buffer zone. And thus, until they can defuse the hatreds they are earning, they will always be assailed on all sides. More a dead end road strategy than
a sustainable model for long terms survival.