Israel / Gaza Thread

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Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
"innocent" (ya bull)

Yea those school children are dangerous terrorists...

they have said tens of times on different occasions that they are only going after hamas militants and not civilians. get that in your ignorant brain

What - everyone should just take them at their word? Why?

children of hamas millitants etc.

im not saying they are all innocent, but most of them are not because they let the government do what they want.

What? Please tell me you're not saying children deserve to die becasue of who their parents might be. And think before you speak please.

umm.... when has israel fired missiles on gaza for 8 years, over 6000 missiles, purposely targeting civilians.

They're firing missiles at civilians right now - they may or may not be targetting them on purpose but they certainly don't care if they're in the way. They see the civillians as unimportant - as less than human almost - just as you do it seems, and just as Hamas sees the Israelis as little better then the spawn of Satan.

why does israel call civilians to leave their home when they are going to attack that area. why does israel drop pamphlets everywhere warning of an attack with enough time to leave.

Because it's good publicity. Clearly those people have nowhere to go - what do you suggest they do? Sleep on the streets? Or attempt to cross the border?

yea they are telling them to run because they want to kill them on the run? oh and if this was a real war, israel would block all 4 ways out of gaza. they only are blocking 3. egypt on the other hand is blocking that 4th way out, which is not israels fault

Fairly convenient though isn't it.

Both sides are as bad as eachother, and neither have a good excuse for killing civillians, becasue there is no good excuse.

 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Newest addition - Boobey trapped School/Zoo

Regardless of whether there were civilians there or not, I think that alone is enough to stop the Hamas crew here from accusing Israel of targeting schools. That is, if they thought straight. Which they don't, so it's not.

I earlier saw UAV videos showing Hamas terrorists running to hide inside groups of cilians right after launching rockets. IDF has already fired missiles at them, but these were deflected to avoid civilian casualties. I'll try finding it.

Anyone of the Hamas crew here believes that Hamas does anything to minimize civilian casualties?

 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
atheus, I like how you avoided what I said

"If I shoot 200 bullets at you and 199 miss, but one grazes your arm and you basically live, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?"

you think they are dropping pamphlets and warning civilians because they want better publicity? you are so ignorant it disgusts me.


if israel truely did not care about the people in gaza, they would have killed them all in 1967 when israel gave up the Sinai peninsula to egypt for peace. they included gaza in their offer, but egypt basically said " no its ok you keep that land"



ontop of what we know as hamas using schools, mosques, apartment buildings as places to lauch missiles and mortar shells. oh and did you know, that its believed hamas's headquarters are in the basement of a hospital right? no one will attack that.

seriously dude, if you want to think that israel is the bad guy in this conflict, go look at a fucking map. look at the difference of land Israel is compared to the rest of the arab world. if the arabs have so much money from oil, how come they just dont help them? know why? its because Iran and Syria are using them as puppets.

Iran and Syria even said to hamas if they agree to any cease fire, that they will stop funding? ill find that article after I post this.

Read it


title:
Iran warns Hamas not to accept Egyptian truce proposal

and my point:
"The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon."



I wonder why they will stop... because they wont act as puppets to the world and if they dont agree, no ceasefire will be made and Israel will continue to attack the mortar shell launch sites and missile lauch sites which are placed in places purposely put there to kill their own civilians, so news networks like CNN which is pro arab will show it on TV and you will believe it and have this argument with me
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
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Originally posted by: freshgeardude
atheus, I like how you avoided what I said

I like how you avoid what I said...

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
I understand your point on the west bank colonization, but the west bank and gaza are ran by 2 different governments.

Fatah and Hamas.

those who are in the west bank are being ran by fatah and live in basic peace. if this conflict is because of the west bank colonization why arent they fighting and people not even in the west bank ( in gaza) are fighting for land their government group isnt even in control.

it doesnt make sense.

what does make sense is that fatah is peaceful with israel, israel lets them come in to work on israeli land.

There are so many factual inaccuracies with your post, I don't even know where to start.

Number 1: Hamas is still the legitimately, democratically elected government of the Palestinian Authority. This is the ONLY democratically elected Arab government in the Middle East, and Hamas extended a truce offer for the return to 1967 borders and the dismantlement of the illegal settlements in the West Bank. Bushie chose to intervene (see text), and empowered Fatah to raise a coup against Hamas. Israel jailed all elected Hamas leaders in the West Bank. Hamas in Gaza is more powerful, so they held on there.

Those who live in the West Bank, on average, have maybe a few miles worth of freedom of movement. The vast majority of the West Bank is either Area C (Arab population, Israeli governed and IDF administered) or illegally settled by the Israelis. Fatah stole over one billion US dollars in foreign aid intended for the Palestinian people and are for all intents and purposes trying to administer a dictatorship over land they don't even "govern." Combine IDF occupation, with hundreds of checkpoints, and you have SCARED people.

Also, Israel closed all border crossings with the West Bank two weeks ago. My uncles that they so kindly let work in Israel are now without income and without work.

what I think needs to happen is, wipe hamas ALL out of gaza, move in fatah, and over a couple of years it will get better. have some israel control of the area watching over, similar to how the US army is helping Iraq's government take over. and solve this conflict

Yeah, let's empower the same scum that stole one billion dollars from the people they claim to work in the interest of to put in the pockets of cowards like Rjub, Dahlan, Abbas, and Erekat. Fuck them. The Palestinian people voted fuck them, obviously the smartest solution would be to put them back in power! Also, Fatah has yet to disband al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. "The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, military wing of the Fateh movement will not be dissolved and Fateh will never relinquish its military wing."(PA Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, official PA website, June 21, 2004) Of course, this means nothing to most Israelis because the evidence of their collaboration with Israel and the US is damning; they shouldn't be allowed to govern the Palestinian people under the premise that they're an Israeli/US puppet regime. Listen to George Galloway go off on Fatah, I've yet to hear him say anything on that topic without factual evidence.

 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
atheus, I like how you avoided what I said

I believe my position is quite clear but I will reply to this specific question too if it helps.

"If I shoot 200 bullets at you and 199 miss, but one grazes your arm and you basically live, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?"

You answered "hell no it's not" and you're exactly right on that. Another question - is it then ok to kill the person who shot at you and their entire family too if they get in the way? Hell no it's not.

you think they are dropping pamphlets and warning civilians because they want better publicity?

Yes that's definately part of it.

if israel truely did not care about the people in gaza, they would have killed them all in 1967 when israel gave up the Sinai peninsula to egypt for peace. they included gaza in their offer, but egypt basically said " no its ok you keep that land"

How generous of them.

ontop of what we know as hamas using schools, mosques, apartment buildings as places to lauch missiles and mortar shells.

I think I've said it enough times - just because Hamas occupies these places, or even if they are deliberately using innocent people as shields, that does not mean it's ok to kill those innocent people.

oh and did you know, that its believed hamas's headquarters are in the basement of a hospital right?

Wouldn't surprise me.

no one will attack that.

You reckon?

seriously dude, if you want to think that israel is the bad guy in this conflict [snip] bla bla bla

No, as I've clearly said, both sides are as bad as eachother. Maybe Hamas is a bit worse, I don't know, but that wouldn't justify the Israelis stooping even lower to match them.

I'll note for the record you also ignored my question to you:

You casually added 'yea bull' to the word innocent in relation to the kids in the UN school, and when I questioned you on it, you replied that they are children of Hamas militants. Maybe they are that and maybe they aren't but does it make them any less innocent? They're children. You think they were born evil or something?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Anyone of the Hamas crew here believes that Hamas does anything to minimize civilian casualties?
That's a very good question... and one that I seriously doubt any of said crew will answer truthfully.

That truth is that Hamas, as a whole, thrives on civilian casualties. Most of their strategy is centered around causing as many civilian casualties as possible -- on both sides.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
As I outright condemn Hamas for their deliberate attacks on civilians, I can't rightly be considered "Hamas crew".

However, I also condemn the IDF for their own violations of international law.

Regardless, the lack of proof to back up Israel's "human shields" claims is telling in it's own right, as is the quips of mindless drones who insist everyone should believe Israel's claims anyway.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
As I outright condemn Hamas for their deliberate attacks on civilians, I can't rightly be considered "Hamas crew".

However, I also condemn the IDF for their own violations of international law.

Regardless, the lack of proof to back up Israel's "human shields" claims is telling in it's own right, as is the quips of mindless drones who insist everyone should believe Israel's claims anyway.
Isn't the video of the Hamas guy proclaiming the use of civilians as shields enough 'proof' for you?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
If I didn't have the intellect to comprehend the difference between acknowledging that civilians will be killed and using human shields, I could see how that video would be enough.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Cheeseplug
How can you blame Palestinians for shooting rockets at Israel? Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since the Israelis pulled out in 2005. The flow of food, water, electricity, and lots of other supplies has been controlled or limited by Israel. The Israeli's have acted like animals during this current war, shooting at marked UN vehicles and shelling schools full of civilians. It is easy to say that Israel can justify the atrocities because rockets have been hitting them sporadically, but you need to look at why the rockets are being shot in the first place.

And how can the US prop up Israel to the tune of $2.5 billion a year when the 20% Arab minority in the actual country of Israel that are treated as second class citizens compared to the Jewish majority? How can it be a functioning democracy when not all of the citizens are treated equally?

Qassam rocket attacks started in 2001, not 2005.

Israel have every right to blockade Gaza just like Syria has blocked trade with Israel since 1967. No nation is forced to trade with one another. In fact most Arab nations have a blockade against Israel. Where is the protests of this overt rasicm? Does Israeli have to right to fire rockets into Saudi or Syria at schools and Mosques now? Somehow I think you're answer would be quite hypocritical.

In Israel there are about 1.5 million Arabs. How many Jews live in Jordan? None! In Saudi Arabia? None! In the Gaza strip? None! Many killed and the rest forceably expelled. Meanwhile, in Israel, courts have enforced equal rights of Arabs to buy land and houses in Jewish areas. In Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, selling land or houses to a Jew is a CAPITAL CRIME!! So who exactly treat whom as second class citizens?

And please please spare me the pieties and the righteous indignation of those "poor Gazans? ...guys like you called it ?peace? as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying. Suddenly, as Israel answered back, you found your 'Cause.' And the name is antisemitism. As usual, at the first hint of Jewish self-defense, how quickly those like you and most of the world show their true colors.

Whine all you want. Pass a million Arab UN resolutions, Jews will never be bullied into annihilation by a huge herd of murderous savages. Israel is to have a secure national Jewish home, so that whenever Muslims, Christians, Communists, Fascists, Anarchists, Socialists, or any other ?ist? intends to eradicate them ? as has been and still is the "Jewish experience" for countless centuries, they WILL have safe harbor. NEVER AGAIN!!!
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
If I didn't have the intellect to comprehend the difference between acknowledging that civilians will be killed and using human shields, I could see how that video would be enough.

this: video
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
other thread was closed so i'll add my post here:

The solution ProfJohn is speaking of will not work. because Hamas has stated they will treat any 3rd party force as occupiers and fight them. the key to ending this stage of the war lies in Guaratees and Sanctions.

1) what guaratees can Israel get that Hamas stops firing rockets and respects a cease-fire?
2) what guaratees can Hamas get that Israel lets the convoy of supplies to pass through the checkpoints?

the answer to both questions is: none. and why is that? because Israel has suffered constant missle attacks for 8 years and will not sit idle anymore. any future rocket attacks will be followed by military action. also Hamas will not subject to any authority or to any agreement (remember it is defined as a terrorist organization even by the UN).

so if there are no guaratees then what will be the sanctions when either side breaks the truce?

what if Israel kills Hamas militants from the air after the ceasefire?
what if Hamas keeps firing rockets even after every last IDF soldier leaves gaza and the crossings open?

during the past 6 months a ceasefire was in effect. israel opened the border crossings and hamas kept firing rockets and mortar shells onto israeli settlments.
in response, Israel closed the borders for one day each time a missle was fired.
obviously this "punishment" isnt enough for Hamas and we see that they are not trustworthy.

all these things must be considered when negotiating a truce. but there are other factors here: the IDF's image has suffered a great blow in the 2006 lebanon war, and now its hell bent on rebuilding its image as the strongest army in the region. Hamas really chose a bad timing for waiving the red cape in front of the bull.

Moreover, i have not seen a single mention of the kidnapped israeli soldier Gilad Schalit in all the threads here. he's been in captivity for more than 900 days now (since the 2006 lebanon war) and his liberation is one of the specific goals of this operation.

what israel wants: stop the rocket attacks, free Gilad Schalit, stop the rearming of Hamas.
what Hamas wants: open the border crossings, no foreign forces, destruction of Israel.

i've sat and read so many uninformed comments in this forum for too long. forget the history, this is the situation now. so i want to see all of you armchair geo-political analysts either come up with a solution or up the shut fuck.

stop quoting half-sentences which serve your aggenda. no matter which side you are on, the solution to the problem should fit both sides.

The civilians in Gaza are held captive by an oppressing force. that force is not the IDF, but rather Hamas. Hamas has doomed them to a life of poverty and threat of death. Hamas was voted democratically as was mentioned many times before, but that was only because the alternative wasnt any better. the people were fed up with the Fatah movement's corruption. Hamas is exploiting the people of Gaza and sacrifices them in the name of their jihad against israel.

Israel cannot stop now, Hamas will not stop now. and the world will not acknowledge any Hamas goverened palestinian state.

this is the truth, straight from the source. now go think about it and dont come back until you have a solution.

and no. "kill all palestinians/israelies" is not a solution.

i might as well just say it if you havent figured it out already: I'm Israeli. i live in israel within the range of the Hamas rockets. i am against the killing of innocent people in gaza but above all i support my country's right to defend itself.
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Israel have every right to blockade Gaza just like Syria has blocked trade with Israel since 1967. No nation is forced to trade with one another. In fact most Arab nations have a blockade against Israel. Where is the protests of this overt rasicm? Does Israeli have to right to fire rockets into Saudi or Syria at schools and Mosques now? Somehow I think you're answer would be quite hypocritical.

FALSE:
At one point the boycott was observed by the entire Arab League. Today, only Lebanon and Syria adhere to it stringently.

In Israel there are about 1.5 million Arabs. How many Jews live in Jordan? None! In Saudi Arabia? None! In the Gaza strip? None! Many killed and the rest forceably expelled. Meanwhile, in Israel, courts have enforced equal rights of Arabs to buy land and houses in Jewish areas. In Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, selling land or houses to a Jew is a CAPITAL CRIME!! So who exactly treat whom as second class citizens?

Shas = 12 seats in the Knesset
"it [Shas] generally supports the Greater Israel consolidation movement united under the crown of the Mizrahi Torah, in accordance to HaMaran Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's flexible foreign policy derivatives."
"Greater Israel" means from the Euphrates to the Nile; that's also what those two blue lines are there on the flag for...

Likud = 12 seats
Following conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians in 2002, Israel's Likud-led government reoccupied Arab towns and refugee camps in West Bank, a position that remains unchanged today.
Most current Likud members support the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and oppose Arab statehood and the disengagement from Gaza.
In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years." <-- Real tolerant towards Arabs right there, right?

National Union + Mafdal = 9 seats in the Knesset
The party has a joint platform, and in particular it supports the settlement of all the Land of Israel, advocates the use of more military power in the War on terror and harsher measures against Palestinian terrorism. It rejects all current Oslo-based peace efforts ? which it sees as dangerous to Israel ? and the notion of what it calls a "22nd Arab state". The party instead advocates voluntary transfer of the Arabs from the West Bank, though it has been vague as to how this could be implemented.
The NRP's views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be summarized as:
* There will only be one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea ? the State of Israel. No independent national Arab entity (such as a putative Palestinian state) will exist within these borders
* No part of Israel will be given over to a foreign government or authority.

And please please spare me the pieties and the righteous indignation of those "poor Gazans? ...guys like you called it ?peace? as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying. Suddenly, as Israel answered back, you found your 'Cause.' And the name is antisemitism. As usual, at the first hint of Jewish self-defense, how quickly those like you and most of the world show their true colors.

When Hamas killed ~20 Israeli citizens over the last DECADE with fertilizer powered rockets, I thought their deaths were wrong and unjustified. With over 800 Gazans dead, 1/3 children, you've got to have a heart of stone to not feel anything over their deaths. I am not anti-Semitic, but it sounds like you are the anti-Arab, like your ilk in right wing Israeli politics.

Whine all you want. Pass a million Arab UN resolutions, Jews will never be bullied into annihilation by a huge herd of murderous savages. Israel is to have a secure national Jewish home, so that whenever Muslims, Christians, Communists, Fascists, Anarchists, Socialists, or any other ?ist? intends to eradicate them ? as has been and still is the "Jewish experience" for countless centuries, they WILL have safe harbor. NEVER AGAIN!!!

Oh, you mean the "Jewish experience" that is thought by some to completely contradict Torah law?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Borealis7

this: video

There isn't enough evidence in those video's to determine why the kids were grabbed and carried off. I've seen such child abuse many times where the perpetrator wasn't doing it with the intent of using the child as a human-shield. Furthermore, if those kids are actually being used as human shields in that video, they are being held rather low to be effective at the task.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Shas = 12 seats in the Knesset
"it [Shas] generally supports the Greater Israel consolidation movement united under the crown of the Mizrahi Torah, in accordance to HaMaran Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's flexible foreign policy derivatives."
"Greater Israel" means from the Euphrates to the Nile; that's also what those two blue lines are there on the flag for...

Likud = 12 seats
Following conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians in 2002, Israel's Likud-led government reoccupied Arab towns and refugee camps in West Bank, a position that remains unchanged today.
Most current Likud members support the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and oppose Arab statehood and the disengagement from Gaza.
In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years." <-- Real tolerant towards Arabs right there, right?

National Union + Mafdal = 9 seats in the Knesset
The party has a joint platform, and in particular it supports the settlement of all the Land of Israel, advocates the use of more military power in the War on terror and harsher measures against Palestinian terrorism. It rejects all current Oslo-based peace efforts ? which it sees as dangerous to Israel ? and the notion of what it calls a "22nd Arab state". The party instead advocates voluntary transfer of the Arabs from the West Bank, though it has been vague as to how this could be implemented.
The NRP's views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be summarized as:
* There will only be one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea ? the State of Israel. No independent national Arab entity (such as a putative Palestinian state) will exist within these borders
* No part of Israel will be given over to a foreign government or authority.

[/quote]
You left out:

Yisrael Beiteinu = 11 seats

They support redrawing Israel's boarders to exclude it's Arab population along with continuing colonization of the West Bank.

United Torah Judaism = 6

Also a party to settlement expansion.

Kadima, Labor, Meimad and Gil = 57 seats

All furthered settlement expansion as well, despite claims of intent to the contrary.

As for the parties who support Palestine's right to exist:

Meretz-Yachad, United Arab List, Ta'al, Hadash and Balad = 16 seats

That is is 87% of Israeli Knesset is perpetuating this conflict rather than working to end it.

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Oh, you mean the "Jewish experience" that is thought by some to completely contradict Torah law?

Not just some, what they hold to is the traditional religions understanding since the fall of the First Temple over 2500 years ago, until that tradition became marginalized around the time of the Holocaust. The modren State of Israel is a very different Jewish experience of millenia past.
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Shas = 12 seats in the Knesset
"it [Shas] generally supports the Greater Israel consolidation movement united under the crown of the Mizrahi Torah, in accordance to HaMaran Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's flexible foreign policy derivatives."
"Greater Israel" means from the Euphrates to the Nile; that's also what those two blue lines are there on the flag for...

Likud = 12 seats
Following conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians in 2002, Israel's Likud-led government reoccupied Arab towns and refugee camps in West Bank, a position that remains unchanged today.
Most current Likud members support the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and oppose Arab statehood and the disengagement from Gaza.
In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years." <-- Real tolerant towards Arabs right there, right?

National Union + Mafdal = 9 seats in the Knesset
The party has a joint platform, and in particular it supports the settlement of all the Land of Israel, advocates the use of more military power in the War on terror and harsher measures against Palestinian terrorism. It rejects all current Oslo-based peace efforts ? which it sees as dangerous to Israel ? and the notion of what it calls a "22nd Arab state". The party instead advocates voluntary transfer of the Arabs from the West Bank, though it has been vague as to how this could be implemented.
The NRP's views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be summarized as:
* There will only be one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea ? the State of Israel. No independent national Arab entity (such as a putative Palestinian state) will exist within these borders
* No part of Israel will be given over to a foreign government or authority.

You left out:

Yisrael Beiteinu = 11 seats

They support redrawing Israel's boarders to exclude it's Arab population along with continuing colonization of the West Bank.

United Torah Judaism = 6

Also a party to settlement expansion.

Kadima, Labor, Meimad and Gil = 57 seats

All furthered settlement expansion as well, despite claims of intent to the contrary.

As for the parties who support Palestine's right to exist:

Meretz-Yachad, United Arab List, Ta'al, Hadash and Balad = 16 seats

That is is 87% of Israeli Knesset is perpetuating this conflict rather than working to end it.

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Oh, you mean the "Jewish experience" that is thought by some to completely contradict Torah law?

Not just some, what they hold to is the traditional religions understanding since the fall of the First Temple over 2500 years ago, until that tradition became marginalized around the time of the Holocaust. The modren State of Israel is a very different Jewish experience of millenia past.

:thumbsup:

Of course, none of the underlying conflict means anything to the posters in this thread. Just "If someone was firing rockets at you, would you not do the same thing?"
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
0
In the face of many `modern myths' currently being propagated,
Here is the truth, based on reports by the UN and other NGOs on the ground, including Israeli human rights groups.

Myth: Israel is a law-abiding nation seeking to live in peace with its neighbors.
The truth: In 1948, shortly after the embryonic UN gave 56% of Palestine to the largely immigrant, minority Jewish population, the Jewish forces drove out most of the indigenous Palestinians and took 78% of the land. They razed to the ground over 400 Palestinian villages, so that the refugees could not return. In 1967 they occupied the rest of Palestine, including Gaza, and began to settle their citizens in these areas, in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In 2002 they began the construction of the 400-mile long barrier, largely on Palestinian land, using it to take land and water resources from what is left of the West Bank.
The centers of population in the West Bank have been isolated into ghetto-like enclaves, surrounded by the Israeli army and illegal settlements. Many methods are being used to drive Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, which Israel has annexed, in contravention of international law.
Israel is in violation of over 60 UN Resolutions, which call for the return of refugees, withdrawal of the settlers, dismantling of the wall and a lifting of the siege on Gaza.

Myth: Israel is threatened by its Arab neighbors.
The truth: Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic relations and trade agreements with Israel. Lebanon and Syria do not, as Israel still occupies part of their territory. Nevertheless, on several occasions the Arab League has offered Israel full normalization in return for a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has refused.

Myth: Israel withdrew its settlers and the army from Gaza in 2005, but the Palestinians rejected this peace offering and simply resorted to more violence.

The truth: Israel did withdraw 8000 settlers from Gaza, after 38 years of occupation - but immediately sent 30,000 more to the illegal settlements in the West Bank (which now has over 450,000 settlers).
At the same time, it placed extremely tight restrictions on all entry points to the Gaza Strip, making it almost impossible for the local economy to function. Over the next two years Israel fired about 16,000 artillery shells into Gaza, killing 120 men, women and children and damaging much of the infrastructure of the towns.

Myth: Israel has for many years suffered terribly from thousands of missiles fired from N Gaza.

The truth: The first homemade Qassam missile was fired across the Israeli border in October 2001; the first fatality occurred in March 2007.

Up to November 2008 13 Israelis were killed by Qassam rockets. By contrast, between September 2000 and the end of November 2008 nearly 5000 Palestinians were killed, more than half of them in Gaza. The rockets have in the last year reached more distant targets, but in military terms they are ineffectual, compared to the fire-power of the US F-16s, Apache helicopter gunships, Merkava tanks and naval gunships with which Israel is equipped.

Hamas say the missiles are in retaliation not only for the many deaths Israel has caused both in Gaza and the West Bank, but also for the continued occupation and expropriation of land (see above). They say they hope to end the occupation in this way, much as Israel was forced to end the occupation of South Lebanon by Hizbollah.

Myth: Hamas broke the recent ceasefire, prompting Israel's bombardment and invasion of Gaza.
The truth: In November 2008, during the six-month ceasefire, the Israeli army killed 14 Palestinians and tightened the siege on Gaza even more. In retaliation, Qassam rockets were fired on the Negev, killing no-one.

Israeli spokesmen have freely admitted that the assaults on Gaza were planned eight months ago - before the ceasefire. They clearly went into the ceasefire agreement without the intention of respecting it.

Myth: Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization bent on Israel's destruction. There is no possibility of Israel negotiating with them.

The truth: Hamas is a nationalist, Islamist organization consisting of a political party, with a military wing, which for years was largely responsible for running hospitals and schools in Gaza, in a situation of military occupation. Even secular Palestinians saw them as efficient and non-corrupt.
When they came to power they offered Israel a ten-year truce, during which time negotiations could take place. Israel rejected this, and continued to quote earlier Hamas manifestos which called for the return of Palestinian land and property.

Myth: Hamas took over Gaza in a coup in June 2007, ousting the rightful government headed by Mahmoud Abbas.

The truth: Hamas won the 2006 general elections, which international observers considered free and fair, and formed a unity government in which MPs from Fatah and other parties were offered ministerial posts. However, in June 2006 Israeli troops abducted dozens of Hamas ministers and parliamentarians and put them in jail, while the US and other western governments joined Israel in refusing to recognize or speak to Hamas.
Israel and the US encouraged Fatah to stage a coup in Gaza, but Hamas pre-empted this in June 2007.
Mahmoud Abbas is the elected President of the Palestinian people, but his party, Fatah, does not have a mandate.

Myth: Israel always tries to minimize civilian casualties - it is targeting only Hamas.

The truth: Israel has the most technically advanced weaponry in the world, with the exception of the US. Its computerised drone planes (which it sells to the UK) send back extremely detailed information about every square foot of the Gaza Strip. And yet hundreds of civilians have been killed and wounded, with the one power plant, ambulances, schools and hospitals being hit.

Myth: Any nation faced with missile or bomb attacks would respond with massive fire power.

The truth: For years Britain experienced terrorist attacks by the IRA, with many more fatalities than Israel has suffered. It never resorted to bombing civilian targets and infrastructure, but succeeded through patient negotiation.

Myth: Hamas uses the citizens of Gaza as `human shields'.
The truth: Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, with 1.5 million inhabitants living in an area about 25 miles long and five miles wide. There are no caves or forests to hide in or operate from - only urban areas.

Myth: Israel has the welfare of the people of Gaza at heart.
The truth: Since June 2007 Israel has sealed off the Gaza Strip from the outside world, so that it is almost impossible to get in or out, or to import or export goods. Patients used to be able to leave Gaza to seek medical treatment elsewhere, but in the last year Israel has denied permits to most patients and dozens have died.

Myth: The people of Gaza are not really suffering - this is exaggerated for propaganda purposes.

The truth: John Ging, director of the UN agency for refugees in Gaza, Professor Richard Falk, UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Territories and representatives of Oxfam and other international aid organizations reacted angrily to Israel's claims. For years they have been monitoring the situation and calling attention to the desperate and deteriorating plight of the people of Gaza.

Myth: People who criticize Israel are anti-Semitic.
The truth: To be anti-Semitic is to be racist towards Jews. But many Jews, and even Israelis, are highly critical of Israel's policies. The policies of ethnic cleansing and seizure of land are rooted in Zionism, or the belief that Jews have exclusive rights to Palestine. To be anti-Zionist is to oppose this ideology and these policies. But Israel uses the anti-Semitism argument to intimidate people into silence.

For detailed reports from international and Israeli organisations see:
www.ochaopt.org, www.btselem.org, www.amnesty.org.uk, www.christianaid.org.uk, www.savethechildren.org.uk, www.adalah.org, www.icahd.org
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
0
"over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children"

http://www.un.org/apps/news/st...9520&Cr=gaza&Cr1=unrwa


:(
rose.gif



edit:

1:07 israeli spokesman confirms that no Hamas rockets for four months before Nov. 4th....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Originally posted by: SandEagle
"over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children"

http://www.un.org/apps/news/st...9520&Cr=gaza&Cr1=unrwa


:(
rose.gif



edit:

1:07 israeli spokesman confirms that no Hamas rockets for four months before Nov. 4th....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c


um...... guess what.. Israel killed people building tunnels who were planning an attack.

thats like saying, "yea, I could have stopped the attacks of 9/11 before the boarded the plane, but instead wanted to blow the planes out of the sky"

secondly, I like how they cut him out right after he said that. it could have been that is correct... for 1 month then they continued or some BS



secondly, taking 2 minutes of looking and not actually finding any more..

On here..


this was written

On 27 December, 2008[61], Israeli F-16 strike fighters launched a series of air strikes against targets in Gaza. Struck were militant bases, a mosque, various Hamas government buildings, a science building in the Islamic University, and a U.N.-operated elementary school in a Palestinian refugee camp[62] in the Gaza Strip. Some strikes against Hamas have resulted in civilian casualties. The attack was a response to Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel, which totaled over 3,000 in 2008, and which intensified during the few weeks preceding the operation. A cease-fire between Israel and Hamas had expired in December, 2008. UN and Palestinian medical staff said at least 434 Palestinians were killed, and at least 2,800 wounded, including Hamas militants and civilians, in the first five days of Israeli strikes on Gaza. Israel began a ground invasion of the Gaza strip on 3 January, 2009.[63] Israel has rejected diplomatic initiatives for a negotiated cease-fire.[64]

so please, when a hate group posts something on the internet and cuts someone out not hearing the rest they can say, dont come here and start saying this crap


Edit: seems like some of that video is true. that for around 3 months around 20 seperate attacks were made. but the nombers for november were different

Link

but, if you go down to November and start reading from the beginning, you will see what happened to spark this conflict
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

When Hamas killed ~20 Israeli citizens over the last DECADE with fertilizer powered rockets, I thought their deaths were wrong and unjustified. With over 800 Gazans dead, 1/3 children, you've got to have a heart of stone to not feel anything over their deaths. I am not anti-Semitic, but it sounds like you are the anti-Arab, like your ilk in right wing Israeli politics.

Damn you're right. When a palestinian rocket kills 1 Israeli, Israel should only be allowed to have 1 palestinian revenge killing.

:roll: @ you. you are anti-semitic. anti-zionism = anti-semitism.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Those who support the ongoing conquest over Palestine often slander others as bigots for opposing it.

Such tragic irony. :roll:
 

Cheeseplug

Senior member
Dec 16, 2008
430
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Cheeseplug
How can you blame Palestinians for shooting rockets at Israel? Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since the Israelis pulled out in 2005. The flow of food, water, electricity, and lots of other supplies has been controlled or limited by Israel. The Israeli's have acted like animals during this current war, shooting at marked UN vehicles and shelling schools full of civilians. It is easy to say that Israel can justify the atrocities because rockets have been hitting them sporadically, but you need to look at why the rockets are being shot in the first place.

And how can the US prop up Israel to the tune of $2.5 billion a year when the 20% Arab minority in the actual country of Israel that are treated as second class citizens compared to the Jewish majority? How can it be a functioning democracy when not all of the citizens are treated equally?

Qassam rocket attacks started in 2001, not 2005.

Israel have every right to blockade Gaza just like Syria has blocked trade with Israel since 1967. No nation is forced to trade with one another. In fact most Arab nations have a blockade against Israel. Where is the protests of this overt rasicm? Does Israeli have to right to fire rockets into Saudi or Syria at schools and Mosques now? Somehow I think you're answer would be quite hypocritical.

In Israel there are about 1.5 million Arabs. How many Jews live in Jordan? None! In Saudi Arabia? None! In the Gaza strip? None! Many killed and the rest forceably expelled. Meanwhile, in Israel, courts have enforced equal rights of Arabs to buy land and houses in Jewish areas. In Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, selling land or houses to a Jew is a CAPITAL CRIME!! So who exactly treat whom as second class citizens?


And please please spare me the pieties and the righteous indignation of those "poor Gazans? ...guys like you called it ?peace? as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying. Suddenly, as Israel answered back, you found your 'Cause.' And the name is antisemitism. As usual, at the first hint of Jewish self-defense, how quickly those like you and most of the world show their true colors.

The rockets started in 2001 because Gaza was occupied by Israel, it wasn't just waking up one day and saying "hey, lets shoot at Israel."


The difference between the blockade between Israel and Gaza and blockades with other countries in the region is that Israel had been the source of all food, water, electricity, medicine and everything else. Gaza was held at the mercy of Israel for years.

I don't know why you are bringing up other countries and their laws, I didn't say I supported any of them. The fact is there is a 20% arab minority that lives in Israel. Everything about Israel is Jewish from the flag on down. The Arabs have never gotten a chance to share power in Israel, and have hardly any representation in the civil services. They are second class citizens, and the US is funding that.

Don't try to make me look like a Jew hating pro-hamas person, I am not that. Hamas are assholes but so are the Israelis. I would be just as outraged in the Jews were being killed. The Israelis are and have been acting as animals. The IDF hasn't been going that far out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, they have dropped pamphlets and such but do you realize how many people are in Gaza and how small it actually is?


Why is it the United State's responsibility to prop up Israel? Why do we protect them but do nothing to help out in Congo, Central African Republic, Sudan or the other parts of Africa where genocide and war are the norm?

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
IMHO, the only illusion and delusion of this latest Israeli into Gaza, is to assume that it will solve anything or in any way alter the same basic conflict that has raged since 1948 and even before.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

When Hamas killed ~20 Israeli citizens over the last DECADE with fertilizer powered rockets, I thought their deaths were wrong and unjustified. With over 800 Gazans dead, 1/3 children, you've got to have a heart of stone to not feel anything over their deaths. I am not anti-Semitic, but it sounds like you are the anti-Arab, like your ilk in right wing Israeli politics.

Damn you're right. When a palestinian rocket kills 1 Israeli, Israel should only be allowed to have 1 palestinian revenge killing.

What they should get more than one? How many should they get, in your great wisdom?

anti-zionism = anti-semitism.

lol - I think you'll find there's some dispute about that.