Israel / Gaza Thread

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Seems Obama has to deal with the same situation Regarding Israel and the Palestinians that every President has had to deal with since the creation of Israel. Usually it's the Palestinians we have to convince to back down as Israel when provoked kicks ass and doesn't pay any mind to the US. Hell if we get in their way they'd just shoot up one of our ships.

What are you talking about, they're great allies to the US!! [/dripping with sarcasm]

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
After all, the UN school that had 3 shells (motor?) land near it killing ~40 people turned out to have had hamas terrorists launching motors of their own right next to it (i've heard reports of them firing from within it) at Israeli forces, back up by pali eye witnesses.

As I said yesterday in this thread (or maybe another I can't be arsed looking) - even if there were terrorists firing from the area around the school, that does not justify shelling the building. If there was a terrorist hostage situation in a western school they would certainly risk soldiers taking the building to save the kids. The idea of just blowing the whole place up wouldn't even enter people's heads. So is this a terrorist situation? Or total war against the Arabs?

/edit: and BTW, regardless of the above, I haven't even seen any evidence yet for Hamas occupying the school.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
After all, the UN school that had 3 shells (motor?) land near it killing ~40 people turned out to have had hamas terrorists launching motors of their own right next to it (i've heard reports of them firing from within it) at Israeli forces, back up by pali eye witnesses.

As I said yesterday in this thread (or maybe another I can't be arsed looking) - even if there were terrorists firing from the area around the school, that does not justify shelling the building. If there was a terrorist hostage situation in a western school they would certainly risk soldiers taking the building to save the kids. The idea of just blowing the whole place up wouldn't even enter people's heads. So is this a terrorist situation? Or total war against the Arabs?

/edit: and BTW, regardless of the above, I haven't even seen any evidence yet for Hamas occupying the school.

Apples and oranges.

Think long and hard about what a human shield is and what it means to allow that to be used, then for added measure put yourself in the situation of the Israelis, then get back to me.

-edit- Oh and Israel did not shell the building itself, they shelled the area outside.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
If you disagree with this statement, please tell me what you would do if your country was under very similar circumstances or I will be quietly laughing at you, btw "israel is wrong" doesn't count as a response.

I'd stop the active denial of Palestine's right to exist as an independent nation, which Israel continues to perpetuate though their ongoing colonization of Palestinian land.

Then, I'd go after whatever terrorists continue to attack Israel, with a respectable effort towards avoiding civilian casualties.

Fair enough.

If you take the below to be offensive, go F. yourself (it seems to happen a lot when asking questions to the "other side" on forms). Now that that is out of the way.

In what ways is Israel blocking the formation of a functioning pali state that will not turn around and try to kill them, and how and where is Israel going about colonizing the land out from under the palis that Israel will not be willing to remove like the settlements they removed from gaza. This is a actual question if you are wondering, and I expect a real response.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
After all, the UN school that had 3 shells (motor?) land near it killing ~40 people turned out to have had hamas terrorists launching motors of their own right next to it (i've heard reports of them firing from within it) at Israeli forces, back up by pali eye witnesses.

As I said yesterday in this thread (or maybe another I can't be arsed looking) - even if there were terrorists firing from the area around the school, that does not justify shelling the building. If there was a terrorist hostage situation in a western school they would certainly risk soldiers taking the building to save the kids. The idea of just blowing the whole place up wouldn't even enter people's heads. So is this a terrorist situation? Or total war against the Arabs?

/edit: and BTW, regardless of the above, I haven't even seen any evidence yet for Hamas occupying the school.

Apples and oranges.

Yea it's different, but is it still a terrorist situation, or is it total war?

Think long and hard about what a human shield is and what it means to allow that to be used, then for added measure put yourself in the situation of the Israelis, then get back to me.

I put myself in that situation, and I find myself not killing children. I can't imagine any situation in which I could justify knowingly doing that that, and they did know, because the UN routinely provides detailed information about it's activities to the Israelis and they knew exactly what was at those coordinates. The idea that by using civilians as shields the terrorists somehow 'make' the IDF kill those civilians is twisted and immoral - they have a choice whether or not to sink to the level of the terrorists and target innocent people.

 

[kyle xy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Can we get back to the topic at hand and not the back and forth he said she said crap.

What should Israel do to respond to dozens of rocket attacks per day?

I thought Obama was going to talk to everyone and resolve this? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he isn't President yet, but I fully expect this will be resolved peacefully on Jan 21st.. give or take a day.

Cool... then we can start the conspiracies threads that this latest flair up was created just to make Obama look good ala Reagan told Iran to keep the hostages till after the election...

Oh man I had forgotten about that conspiracy with Reagan...man conspiracies are fun.


....we never landed on the moon...9/11 was an inside job...Kennedy was killed by the Easter Bunny...oh wait

Back to the topic. John raises a valid point. Besides why do we care if Obama says something...how many lives will it save and will either Hamas or Israel, upon hearing Obama speak, completely halt all actions apologize and make s'mores? Listen I am not an Obama fanatic but this criticism is just asinine

 

[jpeyton]

The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
If you take the below to be offensive...

No offence taken at all. It is a complex conflict, and our media doesn't do nearly enough to explain it.

Anyway, first point is that there were only ever a few settlements in Gaza which is a 141 square mile strip of desert along the coast, less than ten thousand Israelis living there among nearly 1.5 million Palestinians. Furthermore, while Israel withdrew from Gaza, they refocused their efforts on expanding their colonization of the West Bank, and at an increasing rate, effectively displaying their complete lack of interest in ever withdrawing from that territory. Also, that withdraw was done with done unilaterally with the military leaving along side the settlers, rather than though coronation with the Palestinian Authority security forces, and hence left Gaza to spiral into the chaos that exists there now.

This brings us to the West Bank, 2,305 square miles of fertile and hilly territory, with 2.5 million Palestinians. Israeli military has maintained martial law in the territory for over four decades, bringing in five hundred thousand Israeli settlers and growing, spread all across that Palestinian territory, with Israeli only expressways to connect them. For Palestinians that military occupation consists of hundreds of roadblocks and checkpoints, and Israeli military bases and patrols which keep Palestinian contained into a collection of cantons while the settlement process continues. Here is a fairly recent map depicting the situation, full Israeli control in blue with limited Palestinian autonomy in brown:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Also note that I'm not really the "other side" here. This conflict is between "the death to Israel" extremists on one side, and "death to Palestine" extremists on the other. The latter simply doesn't chant their slogan at rallies and such, as they are far too busy actively achieving their goal by expanding their colonization of the West Bank. Both groups are small though, one just has far more resources and far better public relation skills. Then there is the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians as well as us in the rest of the world who want to put and end to this madness, but many are mislead by the extremists on our sides to support this conflict, while only a few of us look into the details to understand what drives it.

I just recently got around to watching Monday's Daily Show, and if you haven't seen it I highly recommend you do. Jon Stewart is one of the many who has been trying spread understanding of the conflict, and made some great points during that show, both in the begining segment and in the interview at the end:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/fu...jhtml?episodeId=213378

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Hamas itself boobey traped entire streets, including gas stations, inside Gaza. They're showing exactly zero regard to the lives of their own people. Why should Israel act differently?

Good point, and it explains why, when blacks rioted in fury in the late 60's, the police forces were fully justified to go and burn down buildings, too.

On top of that, they are also saying they are rejecting the Egypt-sponsored cease-fire suggestion. I guess they don't feel as nearly as bad about the fighting as the posters here. Keep on going, IDF.

What, there might actually be bad terms for a cease fire making it unacceptabe, even while the hostilities killing so many civilians, the refusal to lift the embargo, are wrong?

I guess the British troops would have been justified to slaughter women and children in the Revolutionary war, as long as they offered a cease fire if colonists accepted their rule.

Colonists refuse to accept British rule?

Go on slaughtering, Redcoats!

(The analogy is not meant to be entirely literal, but to illustrate the wrong principle the poster advocated that any refusal to accept any cease fire deal justifies any retialtion.)

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Hamas would kill every last Israeli child, and they'd sacrifice every one of their own children for propaganda purposes, if they only had the means -- and they'd do so without any remorse wharsoever... none!

I see those kids and I blame Hamas.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Awww.....jpetyon is mad that a bunch of Jihadis are dying. I feel so bad for you.



Sad thing about war is that people who dont deserve to die get killed. Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before firing rockets and running like little girls.

They are the only ones to blame.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: kyle xy

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Can we get back to the topic at hand and not the back and forth he said she said crap.

What should Israel do to respond to dozens of rocket attacks per day?

I thought Obama was going to talk to everyone and resolve this? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he isn't President yet, but I fully expect this will be resolved peacefully on Jan 21st.. give or take a day.

Cool... then we can start the conspiracies threads that this latest flair up was created just to make Obama look good ala Reagan told Iran to keep the hostages till after the election...

Oh man I had forgotten about that conspiracy with Reagan...man conspiracies are fun.


....we never landed on the moon...9/11 was an inside job...Kennedy was killed by the Easter Bunny...oh wait

Back to the topic. John raises a valid point. Besides why do we care if Obama says something...how many lives will it save and will either Hamas or Israel, upon hearing Obama speak, completely halt all actions apologize and make s'mores? Listen I am not an Obama fanatic but this criticism is just asinine

Uh, ya, the idea that the same criminals later convicted of secret and illegal arms sales to Iran might have had any back channel communications with them, how crazy!

Of course Iran Contra was no doubt just another crazy conspiracy theory that didn't really happen too?

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Awww.....jpetyon is mad that a bunch of Jihadis are dying. I feel so bad for you.



Sad thing about war is that people who dont deserve to die get killed. Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before firing rockets and running like little girls.

They are the only ones to blame.

QFT

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Hamas would kill every last Israeli child, and they'd sacrifice every one of their own children for propaganda purposes, if they only had the means -- and they'd do so without any remorse wharsoever... none!

I see those kids and I blame Hamas.

That's why you are the voice of evil.

It's the same whether it's the Islamic extremists demonizing Jews to justify slaughtering them, or radical Jews demonizing Palestenians to justify slaughtering them, or you demonizing all members of Hamas as all wanting nothing more than to slaughter Jewish children no matter what Israel does to justify exterminating them like cockroaches (the same language used by Nazis about the Jews), you are all the same in the evil.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Forcing people to act as human shields is completely indefinable.

However, with Israel being one of the most advanced militaries in the world, I know they have cameras all over the battlefield, but I yet to see any proof of anyone being forced to act as a human shield.

Granted, I still condemn Hamas regardless for attacking civilians, but then I've seen plenty of proof of them doing that.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Hamas would kill every last Israeli child, and they'd sacrifice every one of their own children for propaganda purposes, if they only had the means -- and they'd do so without any remorse wharsoever... none!

I see those kids and I blame Hamas.

That's why you are the voice of evil.

It's the same whether it's the Islamic extremists demonizing Jews to justify slaughtering them, or radical Jews demonizing Palestenians to justify slaughtering them, or you demonizing all members of Hamas as all wanting nothing more than to slaughter Jewish children no matter what Israel does to justify exterminating them like cockroaches (the same language used by Nazis about the Jews), you are all the same in the evil.

I don't see Israel using human shields or committing any other war crimes.

People die in war... even kids. It's a sad fucking state of affairs, for sure, but Hamas intends for those kids to die, so I have nothing but contempt for their evil.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I don't see Israel using human shields or committing any other war crimes.

Text

Amnesty International said on Wednesday that both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters are endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians ? including by using them as human shields.

Text

The International Red Cross Committee accused the Israeli military of violating international humanitarian law, Thursday, after finding starving children next to the bodies of their mothers in bombed out buildings in the Gaza Strip.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse

I don't see Israel using human shields...

Have you seen Hamas forcing people to act as human shields?

If so, I'd llke to see it myself, so I can condemn it too.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

No. Let us hope that Hamas is destroyed.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

No. Let us hope that Hamas is destroyed.

LOL. Hamas is an idea, not a roster.

I bet you think there's a war on "terror" as well? :laugh:

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: palehorse
I don't see Israel using human shields or committing any other war crimes.

Text

Amnesty International said on Wednesday that both <Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters are endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians ? including <by using them as human shields.

Text

The International Red Cross Committee accused <the Israeli military of violating international humanitarian law, Thursday, after finding starving children next to the bodies of their mothers in bombed out buildings in the Gaza Strip.

also that the IDF has been found on countless occasions using Palestinian civilians as human shields when they go house to house to find... something

They have been still doing it even after the Israeli high court ordered them not to.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Forcing people to act as human shields is completely indefinable.

However, with Israel being one of the most advanced militaries in the world, I know they have cameras all over the battlefield, but I yet to see any proof of anyone being forced to act as a human shield.

Granted, I still condemn Hamas regardless for attacking civilians, but then I've seen plenty of proof of them doing that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6554487.stm
http://www.btselem.org/english...elds_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
http://www.turkishweekly.net/n...-as-human-shields.html

there are so many articles about this, these are just a few random picked from google

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Hamas would kill every last Israeli child, and they'd sacrifice every one of their own children for propaganda purposes, if they only had the means -- and they'd do so without any remorse wharsoever... none!

I see those kids and I blame Hamas.

That's why you are the voice of evil.

It's the same whether it's the Islamic extremists demonizing Jews to justify slaughtering them, or radical Jews demonizing Palestenians to justify slaughtering them, or you demonizing all members of Hamas as all wanting nothing more than to slaughter Jewish children no matter what Israel does to justify exterminating them like cockroaches (the same language used by Nazis about the Jews), you are all the same in the evil.

Are you really that dim? It is the stated goal of radical muslims to eliminate the Jews.


Why are you in denial?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Hamas would kill every last Israeli child, and they'd sacrifice every one of their own children for propaganda purposes, if they only had the means -- and they'd do so without any remorse wharsoever... none!

I see those kids and I blame Hamas.

That's why you are the voice of evil.

It's the same whether it's the Islamic extremists demonizing Jews to justify slaughtering them, or radical Jews demonizing Palestenians to justify slaughtering them, or you demonizing all members of Hamas as all wanting nothing more than to slaughter Jewish children no matter what Israel does to justify exterminating them like cockroaches (the same language used by Nazis about the Jews), you are all the same in the evil.

Are you really that dim? It is the stated goal of radical muslims to eliminate the Jews.


Why are you in denial?

:music: CALIFORNIAAA, CALIFORNIAAAAAAAAAH, HERE WE COOOOOOOOMMMMMME! :music:

And before accusing someone of being dim, make sure your own body of work is up to snuff. In your case, reposting verbatim the minutes from yesterday's AIPAC meeting doesn't make you an expert on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

 

[jpeyton]

Motherfuck Israel.

Text

Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70

Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

Mohammed Shaheen, a volunteer with Palestinian Red Crescent, was in the first convoy of ambulances to reach the site of the blast in Zeitoun since it was first occupied then shelled by the Israeli army.

His testimony confirmed accounts, first reported in The Telegraph, from survivors of the extended al Samouni clan who said they feared between 60 and 70 family members had been killed.

"Inside the Samouni house I saw about ten bodies and outside another sixty,'' Mr Shaheen said.

"I was not able to count them accurately because there was not much time and we were looking for wounded people.

"We found fifteen people still alive but injured so we took them in the ambulances.

"I could see an Israeli army bulldozer knocking down houses nearby but we ran out of time and the Israeli soldiers started shooting at us.

"We had to leave about eight injured people behind because we could not get to them and it was no longer safe for us to stay.'' Mr Shaheen was in a convoy led by a jeep from the International Committee of the Red Cross that made its way down war-damaged tracks past demolished houses to the town of Zeitoun.

Concerns had been growing that Zeitoun had witnessed massive civilian casualties after surviving members of the Samouni clan reached Gaza City three days ago.

They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza's main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.

According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.

Convoys of ambulances twice headed to the area to look for wounded but they were driven back by Israeli shooting.

During today's three hour lull in offensive operations by Israel, the ICRC led the rescue convoy in although it took a long time for the convoy to make its way down war-damaged.

According to Mr Shaheen, the death toll was as high as described by the survivors.

Cliffs: IDF takes control of the town of Zeitoun, orders 100 members of a clan to gather into a single house. The house is then shelled repeatedly by the IDF, killing 70 extended family members. Ambulances led by the Red Cross and Red Crescent were fired upon and driven away by the IDF when they tried to help the wounded.

No wonder the Vatican clergy called Gaza a concentration camp. Is this their final solution? Mass executions and burial by bulldozer?