Israel / Gaza Thread

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Awww.....jpetyon is mad that a bunch of Jihadis are dying. I feel so bad for you.

Sad thing about war is that people who dont deserve to die get killed. Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before firing rockets and running like little girls.

They are the only ones to blame.

*smack* *pow*

"now look what you made me do..."

The last refuge of the wife beater. The excuses of a cowardly man.

They are children - do you understand this concept? Just because they have brown skin does not make them any less human or any less innocent. It is not their fault they're in a warzone, nor is it their fault their parents may or may not be terrorists - the idea that there is some possible justification in this world for killing children is completely twisted and sick. If you have to fire through a child to kill a terrorist then you do not fire or you are just as bad as them.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Still waiting for jpeyton to answer this question...

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Motherfuck Israel.

Text

Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70

Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

Mohammed Shaheen, a volunteer with Palestinian Red Crescent, was in the first convoy of ambulances to reach the site of the blast in Zeitoun since it was first occupied then shelled by the Israeli army.

His testimony confirmed accounts, first reported in The Telegraph, from survivors of the extended al Samouni clan who said they feared between 60 and 70 family members had been killed.

"Inside the Samouni house I saw about ten bodies and outside another sixty,'' Mr Shaheen said.

"I was not able to count them accurately because there was not much time and we were looking for wounded people.

"We found fifteen people still alive but injured so we took them in the ambulances.

"I could see an Israeli army bulldozer knocking down houses nearby but we ran out of time and the Israeli soldiers started shooting at us.

"We had to leave about eight injured people behind because we could not get to them and it was no longer safe for us to stay.'' Mr Shaheen was in a convoy led by a jeep from the International Committee of the Red Cross that made its way down war-damaged tracks past demolished houses to the town of Zeitoun.

Concerns had been growing that Zeitoun had witnessed massive civilian casualties after surviving members of the Samouni clan reached Gaza City three days ago.

They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza's main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.

According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.

Convoys of ambulances twice headed to the area to look for wounded but they were driven back by Israeli shooting.

During today's three hour lull in offensive operations by Israel, the ICRC led the rescue convoy in although it took a long time for the convoy to make its way down war-damaged.

According to Mr Shaheen, the death toll was as high as described by the survivors.

Cliffs: IDF takes control of the town of Zeitoun, orders 100 members of a clan to gather into a single house. The house is then shelled repeatedly by the IDF, killing 70 extended family members. Ambulances led by the Red Cross and Red Crescent were fired upon and driven away by the IDF when they tried to help the wounded.

No wonder the Vatican clergy called Gaza a concentration camp. Is this their final solution? Mass executions and burial by bulldozer?

Do you have any pics or video?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Motherfuck Israel.

Text

Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70

Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

Mohammed Shaheen, a volunteer with Palestinian Red Crescent, was in the first convoy of ambulances to reach the site of the blast in Zeitoun since it was first occupied then shelled by the Israeli army.

His testimony confirmed accounts, first reported in The Telegraph, from survivors of the extended al Samouni clan who said they feared between 60 and 70 family members had been killed.

"Inside the Samouni house I saw about ten bodies and outside another sixty,'' Mr Shaheen said.

"I was not able to count them accurately because there was not much time and we were looking for wounded people.

"We found fifteen people still alive but injured so we took them in the ambulances.

"I could see an Israeli army bulldozer knocking down houses nearby but we ran out of time and the Israeli soldiers started shooting at us.

"We had to leave about eight injured people behind because we could not get to them and it was no longer safe for us to stay.'' Mr Shaheen was in a convoy led by a jeep from the International Committee of the Red Cross that made its way down war-damaged tracks past demolished houses to the town of Zeitoun.

Concerns had been growing that Zeitoun had witnessed massive civilian casualties after surviving members of the Samouni clan reached Gaza City three days ago.

They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza's main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.

According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.

Convoys of ambulances twice headed to the area to look for wounded but they were driven back by Israeli shooting.

During today's three hour lull in offensive operations by Israel, the ICRC led the rescue convoy in although it took a long time for the convoy to make its way down war-damaged.

According to Mr Shaheen, the death toll was as high as described by the survivors.

Cliffs: IDF takes control of the town of Zeitoun, orders 100 members of a clan to gather into a single house. The house is then shelled repeatedly by the IDF, killing 70 extended family members. Ambulances led by the Red Cross and Red Crescent were fired upon and driven away by the IDF when they tried to help the wounded.

No wonder the Vatican clergy called Gaza a concentration camp. Is this their final solution? Mass executions and burial by bulldozer?

Hey, you could yell F-words for all that you like, but the next time your friends want to shoot rockets at civilian population, they better think twice!

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Motherfuck Israel.

Text

Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70

Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

Mohammed Shaheen, a volunteer with Palestinian Red Crescent, was in the first convoy of ambulances to reach the site of the blast in Zeitoun since it was first occupied then shelled by the Israeli army.

His testimony confirmed accounts, first reported in The Telegraph, from survivors of the extended al Samouni clan who said they feared between 60 and 70 family members had been killed.

"Inside the Samouni house I saw about ten bodies and outside another sixty,'' Mr Shaheen said.

"I was not able to count them accurately because there was not much time and we were looking for wounded people.

"We found fifteen people still alive but injured so we took them in the ambulances.

"I could see an Israeli army bulldozer knocking down houses nearby but we ran out of time and the Israeli soldiers started shooting at us.

"We had to leave about eight injured people behind because we could not get to them and it was no longer safe for us to stay.'' Mr Shaheen was in a convoy led by a jeep from the International Committee of the Red Cross that made its way down war-damaged tracks past demolished houses to the town of Zeitoun.

Concerns had been growing that Zeitoun had witnessed massive civilian casualties after surviving members of the Samouni clan reached Gaza City three days ago.

They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza's main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.

According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.

Convoys of ambulances twice headed to the area to look for wounded but they were driven back by Israeli shooting.

During today's three hour lull in offensive operations by Israel, the ICRC led the rescue convoy in although it took a long time for the convoy to make its way down war-damaged.

According to Mr Shaheen, the death toll was as high as described by the survivors.

Cliffs: IDF takes control of the town of Zeitoun, orders 100 members of a clan to gather into a single house. The house is then shelled repeatedly by the IDF, killing 70 extended family members. Ambulances led by the Red Cross and Red Crescent were fired upon and driven away by the IDF when they tried to help the wounded.

No wonder the Vatican clergy called Gaza a concentration camp. Is this their final solution? Mass executions and burial by bulldozer?

Hey, you could yell F-words for all that you like, but the next time your friends want to shoot rockets at civilian population, they better think twice!

Did you just condone this thing or did you post without reading? Are you actually saying the murder of innocent civillians including children is acceptable because of Hamas rocket attacks?

"You better leave us alone or we kill your kids" ... ?!?

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Do you have any pics or video?

Of course there are no pics of this so you can either believe the UN report or not. Why would anyone allow images to be taken while committing a war crime?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Hey, you could yell F-words for all that you like, but the next time your friends want to shoot rockets at civilian population, they better think twice!

The problem is that they will never think twice. Why? Because, unlike Israel and the rest of the civilized Western world, Hamas doesn't give two shits about any civilians. They'd intentionally slaughter every last Israeli child, and they'd intentionally sacrifice every last child of their own, if it somehow helped them rid the world of Israel.

Our enemies value death more than life. They intentionally draw fire upon their own civilian populations for the sole purpose of using the result as propaganda.

The sad thing is that their tactics seem to work... in each and every conflict with terrorists, idiots like jpeyton crawl out of the woodwork to condemn the wrong side. Doing so only encourages the terrorists to continue with the same tactics and techniques... rinse and repeat.

The only way to break the cycle is to ignore the condemnation and proceed to slaughter or expel every last breathing member of Hamas from Israeli soil.

If I were the PM of Israel, I'd give serious consideration to the deportation of every last Palestinian to Syria or Egypt. I'd force-march them into those countries while killing anyone who dares pick up a weapon. At the end of the day, I'd leave them in the hands of their Arab brethren and claim the entire landmass as my own. I'd lock down the borders, dig in, and say "fuck you" to anyone who dares question the move.

Then, and only then, will the Israelis have peace deeper within their lands. Anything less than this proposal -- including the ridiculous notion of a two-state solution -- will only lead to eternal violence within their borders. Groups like Hamas will never stop attacking Israel, regardless of the politics, so the only real solution is eviction.

Sad but true...

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: palehorse
If I were the PM of Israel, I'd give serious consideration to the deportation of every last Palestinian to Syria or Egypt. I'd force-march them into those countries while killing anyone who dares pick up a weapon. At the end of the day, I'd leave them in the hands of their Arab brethren and claim the entire landmass as my own. I'd lock down the borders, dig in, and say "fuck you" to anyone who dares question the move.

Wow, it sounds so easy when an armchair jockey like you talks about it.

:laugh:

I think this is evidence why you'll never be in a position of power.

 

[Atheus]

Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

 

[bananapeel42]

This thread is filled with so many ignorant people it's funny. All these claims, FUCK ISRAEL, bla bla bla based off what you read on the internet.

All those articles MUST BE TRUE IF YOU READ IT ON THE INTERNET.

Not like the media ever has blown anything out of proportion, ever. If you hate Israel so much, do something about it, go to the area and join the Hamas army and fight against them.

I sure don't want people so blinded by their own ignorance in this country.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

trust me, I know.. and I also know that it's not a humane solution to the problem, and I realize that it's not very likely either.

I simply don't see any other option. I believe that any other action, or lack thereof, will only result in eternal violence within the borders of Israel. Hamas has vowed to strike at Israel until Israel ceases to exist. With that as their stated objective, how can they and Israel ever live peacefully together!? The answer is that they can't, or won't. Therefore, the only option is for one of the two parties to leave or be moved beyond striking distance.

I also didn't say "everyone with brown skin," or "every Arab." I very clearly said "every Palestinian." After all, most Israelis are Arabs too.

I sincerely believe that the conflict won't end until one side or the other no longer lives in Israel...

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Awww.....jpetyon is mad that a bunch of Jihadis are dying. I feel so bad for you.

Sad thing about war is that people who dont deserve to die get killed. Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before firing rockets and running like little girls.

They are the only ones to blame.

*smack* *pow*

"now look what you made me do..."

The last refuge of the wife beater. The excuses of a cowardly man.

They are children - do you understand this concept? Just because they have brown skin does not make them any less human or any less innocent. It is not their fault they're in a warzone, nor is it their fault their parents may or may not be terrorists - the idea that there is some possible justification in this world for killing children is completely twisted and sick. If you have to fire through a child to kill a terrorist then you do not fire or you are just as bad as them.

What kind of dream land are you living in? This isn't only about "as bad as". This isn't some movie. Israel needs to protect their country, not prove that they're better than anyone else. If kids die, that what happens when the other side uses them as human shields. You should condemn Hamas for using children as human shields, not Israel for shooting at Hamas.

Of course there are no pics of this so you can either believe the UN report or not. Why would anyone allow images to be taken while committing a war crime?

Why would Israel do such a thing? It's not in their best interest to kill Palestinians. Their aim is not to eradicate the Palestinians (or we'd see dead in tens or hundreds of thousands). Seriously, if Israel wanted to destroy Gaza they could. Instead we've seen much less casualties than there could have been.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Atheus
Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

trust me, I know.. and I also know that it's not a humane solution to the problem, and I realize that it's not very likely either.

I simply don't see any other option. I believe that any other action, or lack thereof, will only result in eternal violence within the borders of Israel. Hamas has vowed to strike at Israel until Israel ceases to exist. With that as their stated objective, how can they and Israel ever live peacefully together!? The answer is that they can't, or won't. Therefore, the only option is for one of the two parties to leave or be moved beyond striking distance.

I also didn't say "everyone with brown skin," or "every Arab." I very clearly said "every Palestinian." After all, most Israelis are Arabs too.

I sincerely believe that the conflict won't end until one side or the other no longer lives in Israel...

Hamas has accepted the two-state solution. The claim that Palestinians want to destroy Israel is just a Israeli propaganda point Israel uses to excuse Israel destroying the Palestinian people so Israel can steal their land. It has always been like that. Any Palestinian protest against the theft of their land is used as an excuse to steal more land by the Israelis.

Israel is a rouge state, armed with nuclear weapons, breaking international law, oppressing, murdering and terrorising civilians for political purposes.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Atheus
Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

trust me, I know.. and I also know that it's not a humane solution to the problem, and I realize that it's not very likely either.

I simply don't see any other option. I believe that any other action, or lack thereof, will only result in eternal violence within the borders of Israel. Hamas has vowed to strike at Israel until Israel ceases to exist. With that as their stated objective, how can they and Israel ever live peacefully together!? The answer is that they can't, or won't. Therefore, the only option is for one of the two parties to leave or be moved beyond striking distance.

I also didn't say "everyone with brown skin," or "every Arab." I very clearly said "every Palestinian." After all, most Israelis are Arabs too.

I sincerely believe that the conflict won't end until one side or the other no longer lives in Israel...

Yawn... Oh boy, that's original.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Atheus
Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

trust me, I know.. and I also know that it's not a humane solution to the problem, and I realize that it's not very likely either.

I simply don't see any other option. I believe that any other action, or lack thereof, will only result in eternal violence within the borders of Israel. Hamas has vowed to strike at Israel until Israel ceases to exist. With that as their stated objective, how can they and Israel ever live peacefully together!? The answer is that they can't, or won't. Therefore, the only option is for one of the two parties to leave or be moved beyond striking distance.

I also didn't say "everyone with brown skin," or "every Arab." I very clearly said "every Palestinian." After all, most Israelis are Arabs too.

I sincerely believe that the conflict won't end until one side or the other no longer lives in Israel...

Hamas has accepted the two-state solution. The claim that Palestinians want to destroy Israel is just a Israeli propaganda point Israel uses to excuse Israel destroying the Palestinian people so Israel can steal their land. It has always been like that. Any Palestinian protest against the theft of their land is used as an excuse to steal more land by the Israelis.

Israel is a rouge state, armed with nuclear weapons, breaking international law, oppressing, murdering and terrorising civilians for political purposes.

Yeah the disengagment was obvious proof of Israel stealing land.
Oh wait, there are no Israeli settlments in the gaza strip? Oh guess we missed something... So maybe Israel leaving Gaza is some kind of cheap tactic... seriously...

Hamas has obviously accepted the two state solution? That's why they launch rockets into Israeli cities. Nice protest. That's the best way to get Israeli to sign some kind of treaty. It would never cause Israel to actually go and defend their civilians? How has this tactic helped the palestinians one bit? How was creating an arsenal of rockets and mortars helping them in any way to secure that goal?
Now, after 8 years of firing rockets into cities, they're getting their ass handed to them and are crying to the world. It seems some people are actually buying it.

EDIT:
Oh, and have you seen Israel use nuclear weapons? Or perhaps shooting rockets from people houses? Or maybe use schools as hide outs?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The stats are in, and I was right. F-U-C-K I-S-R-A-E-L. Let's hope the UN can establish a ceasefire soon.

Text

As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded ? about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday.

I remember a few members here claiming a majority of the 500+ dead were Hamas. Now that the dust has settled, it looks like nearly half of those killed were children, with another 1,000+ injured.

And they haven't even dug all the bodies out yet.

Awww.....jpetyon is mad that a bunch of Jihadis are dying. I feel so bad for you.

Sad thing about war is that people who dont deserve to die get killed. Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before firing rockets and running like little girls.

They are the only ones to blame.

*smack* *pow*

"now look what you made me do..."

The last refuge of the wife beater. The excuses of a cowardly man.

They are children - do you understand this concept? Just because they have brown skin does not make them any less human or any less innocent. It is not their fault they're in a warzone, nor is it their fault their parents may or may not be terrorists - the idea that there is some possible justification in this world for killing children is completely twisted and sick. If you have to fire through a child to kill a terrorist then you do not fire or you are just as bad as them.

What kind of dream land are you living in? This isn't only about "as bad as". This isn't some movie. Israel needs to protect their country, not prove that they're better than anyone else.

If you give up your principles then what are you fighting for? What is there to defend? Land? How huch land equals the life of a child I wonder? One acre? Two?

If kids die, that what happens when the other side uses them as human shields.

No it takes both sides. There is no justification for shooting through a child to kill a terrorist. It makes no sense - why are you killing the terrorist in the first place if not to save innocent lives? And yet you take more innocent lives than he ever took while hunting him down? It makes no sense.

You should condemn Hamas for using children as human shields, not Israel for shooting at Hamas.

I don't condemn Israel for shooting at Hamas, I condemn them for shooting at children and UN workers, and of course I condemn the use of human shields. Why does everyone insist one side is pure evil and one side pure good? There's no such thing.

Why would Israel do such a thing?

Same reason Hamas fighters fire rockets at civilians - becasue they are driven by irrational hate and fear.

It's not in their best interest to kill Palestinians. Their aim is not to eradicate the Palestinians (or we'd see dead in tens or hundreds of thousands). Seriously, if Israel wanted to destroy Gaza they could. Instead we've seen much less casualties than there could have been.

That objective would never be acceptable to the international community, except of course the US, so they would never admit it if that was in fact their objective.

 

[palehorse]

From the CFR:

What does Hamas believe and what are its goals?

Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Its leaders have called suicide attacks the "F-16" of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes "peace talks will do no good," said the Hamas leader Abd al-Aziz Rantisi in April 2004. "We do not believe we can live with the enemy."

Take a gander:
The Hamas Charter, from 1988, in its entirety

My point stands.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
If you take the below to be offensive...

No offence taken at all. It is a complex conflict, and our media doesn't do nearly enough to explain it.

Anyway, first point is that there were only ever a few settlements in Gaza which is a 141 square mile strip of desert along the coast, less than ten thousand Israelis living there among nearly 1.5 million Palestinians. Furthermore, while Israel withdrew from Gaza, they refocused their efforts on expanding their colonization of the West Bank, and at an increasing rate, effectively displaying their complete lack of interest in ever withdrawing from that territory. Also, that withdraw was done with done unilaterally with the military leaving along side the settlers, rather than though coronation with the Palestinian Authority security forces, and hence left Gaza to spiral into the chaos that exists there now.

This brings us to the West Bank, 2,305 square miles of fertile and hilly territory, with 2.5 million Palestinians. Israeli military has maintained martial law in the territory for over four decades, bringing in five hundred thousand Israeli settlers and growing, spread all across that Palestinian territory, with Israeli only expressways to connect them. For Palestinians that military occupation consists of hundreds of roadblocks and checkpoints, and Israeli military bases and patrols which keep Palestinian contained into a collection of cantons while the settlement process continues. Here is a fairly recent map depicting the situation, full Israeli control in blue with limited Palestinian autonomy in brown:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Also note that I'm not really the "other side" here. This conflict is between "the death to Israel" extremists on one side, and "death to Palestine" extremists on the other. The latter simply doesn't chant their slogan at rallies and such, as they are far too busy actively achieving their goal by expanding their colonization of the West Bank. Both groups are small though, one just has far more resources and far better public relation skills. Then there is the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians as well as us in the rest of the world who want to put and end to this madness, but many are mislead by the extremists on our sides to support this conflict, while only a few of us look into the details to understand what drives it.

I just recently got around to watching Monday's Daily Show, and if you haven't seen it I highly recommend you do. Jon Stewart is one of the many who has been trying spread understanding of the conflict, and made some great points during that show, both in the begining segment and in the interview at the end:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/fu...jhtml?episodeId=213378

From the sounds of it, what is needed is those who support, and I do mean real support, the palis (i'll call them Palestinians when they have a country) to twist their arm behind their back and make them cry uncle until they stop with the "armed resistance" in all its forms. Then those who support Israel (*cough*usa*cough*) pull a South Africa on them if they do not pursue a fair and balanced peace agreement (one state, two state, join Egypt/Jordan, whatever works). That may mean Israel keeps some of its west bank settlements, but the palis get something of equal or greater value in return for that land that THEY want, not just a pile of cash while they have no water.

I also think the FUBAR Israeli settlers needs to be exiled from Israel be it needed or not, but I hate religious nuts who are hateful in general (I've seen some videos and they are scary). Too hard to do with the arabs, plus it would be a bad idea to put them into a tolerant society (Britain anyone?), arab nations will not touch them with a 10km pole.

As to the current situation, I think hamas needs to be removed for the people in gaza to move froward. Anyone who tries to do go against their wishes gets a bullet in the leg or head. Hamas is not looking for peace, they are looking to destroy Israel, all the death and destruction they cause to their own people they see as acceptable. Many civilians will die in the meantime because of hamas's use of human shields and Israeli firepower ("woops" has a whole new meaning when you are using a 1000 pound bomb in a dense urban area). Israel doesn't need to exterminate every trace of hamas, they need only to let the PA go in and fill the vacuum while it exists and do all they can to improve the lives of gazans so they want to go in the new direction. Try to keep the PA from going squirrely, and start giving the palis what they want and the arabs themselves may keep pushing for a peaceful approach to continue improvements.

As usual the UN is being useless, making a non binding resolution (which the USA didn't vote on, for or against) that asks both sides to play nice, they even cut out the part about sending international observers (not that observers would help much, but at least it's better then pretty words) that the Arabs wanted in there, but Britain and EU didn't. I would still like to see a offer by Russia to send peace keepers (not under UN control) to really and truly enforce any peace deal that is made.

The pali's must also be mature enough NOT to elect terrorists to government anymore, firing rockets is not a productive response. As I had stated in a thread somewhere else, MASSIVE scale protests, similar to what hamas had wanted to do with with a million man march but without the whole "lets ALL make a mad dash into Israel" part (forgot about that bit when I posted that in another thread). Protests on that scale will get international attention, and even more if Israel cracks down on it. Israel can't play "our security first" card anymore.

So once hamas is removed and the PA takes over, if the lack of attacks on Israel (thinking west bank) aside from lone gunman style continue there is a real prospect for peace, assuming the above.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Forcing people to act as human shields is completely indefinable.

However, with Israel being one of the most advanced militaries in the world, I know they have cameras all over the battlefield, but I yet to see any proof of anyone being forced to act as a human shield.

Granted, I still condemn Hamas regardless for attacking civilians, but then I've seen plenty of proof of them doing that.

Hamas doesn't need to force civilians to be human shields, in fact it seems all but the most brain washed try and avoid being human shields.

Problem is the terrorists only need to get close to them, operate in dense urban areas and in civilian structures.

The number of dead children also raises alarm bells in my head, seems like they are doing a good job at brain washing them to be used as shields, but I have no proof of that beyond hamas TV.

And as advanced as Israel is, they are not as good as you think. There is always human error, and bombs small enough to have no chance of hurting civilians won't be very useful. Also look at some Israeli aerial bombing footage, you won't see many people from their view even when you know there has got to be a few thousand around. This is why Israel start a ground op, to lessen the civilian deaths by putting their soldiers in harms way (urban fighting is a defenders wet dream) so they have eyes on the ground they can pick out what is what.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
From the sounds of it, what is needed is those who support, and I do mean real support, the palis (i'll call them Palestinians when they have a country) to twist their arm behind their back and make them cry uncle until they stop with the "armed resistance" in all its forms.

The vast majority of Plainsman aren't engaging in violent resistance, and haven't been for the over four decades Israel has been colonizing their land in the West Bank. Popular violent resistance only started two decades ago with the First Intifata (Arabic for ("shaking off"), after Israeli colonization had covered the West Bank. Now the fact that Israel insists on colonizing their land is your excuse for not even showing them the respect to refer to them as Palestinians?

Cheering on the mighty as the overrun the meek will only perpetuate this madness. Is that your goal?

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I also think the FUBAR Israeli settlers needs to be exiled from Israel be it needed or not...

Not Israel, the West Bank. Not even Israel claims the West Bank is within their own borders, as if they did they would be required to give citizenship to the 2.5 million Palestinians there, which would severly cripple the "Jewish nature" of their ethnic nationalist state. Again, The West Bank is Israeli millitary occupied Palestinian territory.

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
As usual the UN is being useless, making a non binding resolution (which the USA didn't vote on, for or against)

Right, because our US government vetos all the binding resolutions that otherwise would work to put a stop to this madness.

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Forcing people to act as human shields is completely indefinable.

However, with Israel being one of the most advanced militaries in the world, I know they have cameras all over the battlefield, but I yet to see any proof of anyone being forced to act as a human shield.

Granted, I still condemn Hamas regardless for attacking civilians, but then I've seen plenty of proof of them doing that.

Hamas doesn't need to force civilians to be human shields, in fact it seems all but the most brain washed try and avoid being human shields.

Problem is the terrorists only need to get close to them, operate in dense urban areas and in civilian structures.

The number of dead children also raises alarm bells in my head, seems like they are doing a good job at brain washing them to be used as shields, but I have no proof of that beyond hamas TV.

And as advanced as Israel is, they are not as good as you think.

They are advanced enough to have video footage from all over the battlefield I suggested, yet where is the proof of people being used as human shields? Does that not even register to you, let alone set off alarm bells?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Still waiting for jpeyton to answer this question...

Perhaps you can show him some examples? Or is your contempt here just based on delusions?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you hold ANY contempt for Hamas and their evil human shield tactics?!

Still waiting for jpeyton to answer this question...

Perhaps you can show him some examples? Or is your contempt here just based on delusions?

There are literally thousands of examples published every day... refusing to acknowledge something that is considered common knowledge is ignorant.

Hamas... Hezbollah... The Taliban... AQI... LeT... etc etc... they all use the same tactics -- human shields meant to cause intentional civilian casualties -- in nearly every conflict. In fact, they are trained to do so! It's a well-established, and well-documented, aspect of their doctrine(s).

Google is your friend...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse
There are literally thousands of examples published every day... refusing to acknowledge something that is considered common knowledge is ignorant.

Accepting a claim without proof is ignorant. Having no interest in being ignorant, I went digging around the videos Israeli military has posted on the Internet, but I'm not coming up with anything to substantiate the claim. Again, Israel has cameras all over the battlefield, where is the proof?

Please, show me evidence so I can join you in your condemnations.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Atheus
Palehorse that's pure racism - you can't just pick up every Arab and march them out of the area. If that's not a description of 'ethnic cleansing' I don't know what is. Hamas != 'everyone with brown skin'...

trust me, I know.. and I also know that it's not a humane solution to the problem, and I realize that it's not very likely either.

I simply don't see any other option. I believe that any other action, or lack thereof, will only result in eternal violence within the borders of Israel. Hamas has vowed to strike at Israel until Israel ceases to exist. With that as their stated objective, how can they and Israel ever live peacefully together!? The answer is that they can't, or won't. Therefore, the only option is for one of the two parties to leave or be moved beyond striking distance.

I also didn't say "everyone with brown skin," or "every Arab." I very clearly said "every Palestinian." After all, most Israelis are Arabs too.

I sincerely believe that the conflict won't end until one side or the other no longer lives in Israel...

Hamas has accepted the two-state solution. The claim that Palestinians want to destroy Israel is just a Israeli propaganda point Israel uses to excuse Israel destroying the Palestinian people so Israel can steal their land. It has always been like that. Any Palestinian protest against the theft of their land is used as an excuse to steal more land by the Israelis.

Israel is a rouge state, armed with nuclear weapons, breaking international law, oppressing, murdering and terrorising civilians for political purposes.

Yeah the disengagment was obvious proof of Israel stealing land.
Oh wait, there are no Israeli settlments in the gaza strip? Oh guess we missed something... So maybe Israel leaving Gaza is some kind of cheap tactic... seriously..

Of course it was a deliberate strategic move (or cheap tactic if you wish) by Israel. Ariel Sharon's senior advisor, Dov Weisglass said it was a deliberate move to prevent talks with the Palestinian side:

Weisglass: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

So there you have it. Israel created a huge Ghetto in Gaza.

Hamas has obviously accepted the two state solution? That's why they launch rockets into Israeli cities. Nice protest. That's the best way to get Israeli to sign some kind of treaty. It would never cause Israel to actually go and defend their civilians? How has this tactic helped the palestinians one bit? How was creating an arsenal of rockets and mortars helping them in any way to secure that goal?
Now, after 8 years of firing rockets into cities, they're getting their ass handed to them and are crying to the world. It seems some people are actually buying it.

[/quote]

Hamas rockets are replies to Israeli aggression. At least this time they were as Israel broke the ceasefire back in November. Israel has been planning this operation for six months.

EDIT:
Oh, and have you seen Israel use nuclear weapons? Or perhaps shooting rockets from people houses? Or maybe use schools as hide outs?

[/quote]

Israel have all the weaponry in the world. Hamas does not. Israel is strong. Hamas is weak. Isreal uses pure butchery tactics. Hamas hits out in the pitiful way they can. Israel can afford to chose it's tactics. Hamas has offered to recognize Israel if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. Of course that is the last thing Israel wants. As Weisglass admits in the quote above. This operation by Israel is pure butchery and an attempt to overthrow the result of the Palestinian election in 2006 and to marginalize the Palestinian people further. Sieg Heil Zionazis. The Nazis in Wharzaw would have been proud of this operation.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: linkgoron
You should condemn Hamas for using children as human shields, not Israel for shooting at Hamas.

No, you condemn both Hamas for hiding behind civilians and Israel for having so little regard for said shields.

Shit, condemning is easy. Its not like you actually have to DO anything about it. :roll:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
There are literally thousands of examples published every day... refusing to acknowledge something that is considered common knowledge is ignorant.

Accepting a claim without proof is ignorant. Having no interest in being ignorant, I went digging around the videos Israeli military has posted on the Internet, but I'm not coming up with anything to substantiate the claim. Again, Israel has cameras all over the battlefield, where is the proof?

Please, show me evidence so I can join you in your condemnations.

I provided a link yesterday to a video from 2007 showing Hamas terrorists firing mortars from a UN school. That is what is called a "precedent" -- a demonstration of Hamas doctrine, if you will.

That there is no video of this specific incident is no fault of mine.

You believe what you want to believe... in my case, precedents, history, and my first-hand knowledge of Israeli military doctrine, are enough for me to give Israel the benefit of the doubt 99% of the time.