Israel / Gaza Thread

[raildogg]

Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: raildogg
Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

I can answer one of your questions. Since Palestinians got their hands on Katyushas and similar rockets, they've achieved a jaw dropping 0.4% mortality rate. Less than two dozen casualties, and around 300 injuries. This is in about one decade of rocket fire. This is Tel Aviv's reason for 800 dead in Gaza and 3000 injured, most which will perish in the next few days if they don't receive necessary medical attention.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: raildogg
Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that their people have bomb shelters, and places to go?
Seriously, I just can't understand people that use the "Pali's have more killed/injured" line. YES, of course they've got more injured and dead. This is because two reasons. Israeli civilians have where to run (bomb shelters are very common in Israel), or to northern Israel and because the the palestinian arsenal isn't very good.

So basically what you're saying is that for every one person killed in Israel, Israel should kill one Hamas terrorist? How is Hamas not a terrorist group? did they not shoot rockets and mortars for the last 8 years into Israeli cities? onto civilians? Or is that OK? What is Israel supposed to do? tell it's people to stay outside so the death toll can get high enough to retaliate? Seriously... Israel phoned people before bombing their homes, Israel tries it's best to not kill civilians. Even the worst estimates say that more than 50% dead were Hamas members. What more do you want?

Sometimes I just don't get it. Do you expect Israel to abandon all their high-tec weaponery, and go after every Hamas member one by one? Or maybe call them out for a fair fight?

The number of children killed is only this high because of the fact that Hamas uses its own people as a human shield, which people here seem to accept, and instead they condemn Israel for prefering their own people...

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: raildogg
Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that their people have bomb shelters, and places to go?
Seriously, I just can't understand people that use the "Pali's have more killed/injured" line. YES, of course they've got more injured and dead. This is because two reasons. Israeli civilians have where to run (bomb shelters are very common in Israel), or to northern Israel and because the the palestinian arsenal isn't very good.

So basically what you're saying is that for every one person killed in Israel, Israel should kill one Hamas terrorist? How is Hamas not a terrorist group? did they not shoot rockets and mortars for the last 8 years into Israeli cities? onto civilians? Or is that OK? What is Israel supposed to do? tell it's people to stay outside so the death toll can get high enough to retaliate? Seriously... Israel phoned people before bombing their homes, Israel tries it's best to not kill civilians. Even the worst estimates say that more than 50% dead were Hamas members. What more do you want?

Sometimes I just don't get it. Do you expect Israel to abandon all their high-tec weaponery, and go after every Hamas member one by one? Or maybe call them out for a fair fight?

The number of children killed is only this high because of the fact that Hamas uses its own people as a human shield, which people here seem to accept, and instead they condemn Israel for prefering their own people...

I condemn Israel for their disgusting 60 year old political history.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2005

 

[JEDIYoda]

CRASH COURSE ON the ARAB ISRAELI CONFLICT

HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....
It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't matter.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two
thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion
over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land
for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more
than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.

Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity Even when
the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their
capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy

Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged
to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.


10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in
the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate
nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself
each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of
Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land,
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with
weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all
faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429

18. The U. N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by
the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated
the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like
policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
Wall.


THE KORAN ON JEWS

"3.112" : Abasement is made to cleave to them (the Jews) wherever they are
found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they
have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave
to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and
slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the
limits.

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

"5.82" : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for
those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are ? polytheists? , and
you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to
be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

"9.30" : And the Jews say: ? Uzair? is the son of Allah; and the
Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! From the ? Hadith? , a body of
traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu ?
Hurayah? ) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not
come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that
Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say,
O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the
Jews. Sahih? of Muslim , quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al ? Quran?
by Ali Akbar, ? Bismi? Publishers 1992, p.44) (Palestinian Media Watch in
Israel reported in July 2001 that at least four times in recent months
Palestinian religious leaders had taught publicly that this ? Hadith?
(Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of
Islam today, expressing Allah¹s will that obedient Muslims kill Jews). (In
the terminology of Islam, unbelievers are Jews and Christians)

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: raildogg
Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that their people have bomb shelters, and places to go?
Seriously, I just can't understand people that use the "Pali's have more killed/injured" line. YES, of course they've got more injured and dead. This is because two reasons. Israeli civilians have where to run (bomb shelters are very common in Israel), or to northern Israel and because the the palestinian arsenal isn't very good.

So basically what you're saying is that for every one person killed in Israel, Israel should kill one Hamas terrorist? How is Hamas not a terrorist group? did they not shoot rockets and mortars for the last 8 years into Israeli cities? onto civilians? Or is that OK? What is Israel supposed to do? tell it's people to stay outside so the death toll can get high enough to retaliate? Seriously... Israel phoned people before bombing their homes, Israel tries it's best to not kill civilians. Even the worst estimates say that more than 50% dead were Hamas members. What more do you want?

Sometimes I just don't get it. Do you expect Israel to abandon all their high-tec weaponery, and go after every Hamas member one by one? Or maybe call them out for a fair fight?

The number of children killed is only this high because of the fact that Hamas uses its own people as a human shield, which people here seem to accept, and instead they condemn Israel for prefering their own people...

This creates more terrorists which Israel will go after and that will create more terrorists. It is a cycle basically.

Violence is not the answer. Israel and America need to learn from their past mistakes that using force is not the answer.

As to Hamas, they are a terrorist group to you. To many, Israel is a terrorist nation because of the way they deal with the Palestinians. To many, America is a terrorist nation because it has killed more than 600,000 Iraqis. It is all about perspective. One man's terrorist is another man's hero.

Israel has the means to protect its civilians and the Palestinians do not. Israel has the backing of the United States in full public view. As to making it a fair fight, violence is a bad thing. Instead of a fair fight, how about no fight?

Israel can lead by example. They can choose to not kill so many Palestinians. Ending rocket attacks by killing hundreds of Palestinians and creating more animosity is not a good move.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
CRASH COURSE ON the ARAB ISRAELI CONFLICT

HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....
It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't matter.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two
thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion
over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land
for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more
than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.

Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity Even when
the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their
capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy

Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged
to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.


10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in
the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate
nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself
each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of
Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land,
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with
weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all
faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429

18. The U. N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by
the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated
the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like
policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
Wall.


THE KORAN ON JEWS

"3.112" : Abasement is made to cleave to them (the Jews) wherever they are
found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they
have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave
to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and
slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the
limits.

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

"5.82" : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for
those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are ? polytheists? , and
you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to
be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

"9.30" : And the Jews say: ? Uzair? is the son of Allah; and the
Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! From the ? Hadith? , a body of
traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu ?
Hurayah? ) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not
come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that
Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say,
O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the
Jews. Sahih? of Muslim , quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al ? Quran?
by Ali Akbar, ? Bismi? Publishers 1992, p.44) (Palestinian Media Watch in
Israel reported in July 2001 that at least four times in recent months
Palestinian religious leaders had taught publicly that this ? Hadith?
(Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of
Islam today, expressing Allah¹s will that obedient Muslims kill Jews). (In
the terminology of Islam, unbelievers are Jews and Christians)

exactly hit the nail on the head. Jews have been there longer, respected others for all the time, let them go to their places in peace, etc

while the arabs desecrate them and prohibit the passage to them.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Annoying Forward

Qiblah (Qibla or Kiblah) is the direction of the Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah, Saudi Arabia, toward which Muslims from all over the world turn five times each day when performing the Salat (daily ritual prayer).

Baitul-Maqdis in Jerusalem was the first Qiblah for Muslims before the announcement of present Qiblah at Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah, Saudi Arabia.

When Allah (SWT) first ordered Prophet Mohammed (saw) and all Muslims to offer the daily Salat (Salah), they prayed facing Baitul-Maqdis in Jerusalem, Palestine. This was the practice in Makkah and continued in Medina until the seventeenth month after Hijrah (migration).

At the heart of Jerusalem is the Noble Sanctuary or Al-Haram al-Sharif, enclosing over 35 acres of fountains, gardens, buildings and domes. At its southernmost end is Al-Aqsa Mosque and at its center the celebrated Dome of the Rock. The entire area is regarded as Baitul-Maqdis or Al-Qudus and comprises nearly one sixth of the walled city of Jerusalem.

It is clear that Masjid al-Aqsa and Dome of the Rock (Qubbat as-Sakhra) are two separate buildings, and not synonymous with each other as believed by some Muslims. However, both these buildings are within the enclosure of Al-Haram al-Sharif referred to in Glorious Qur'an as "the Furthest Mosque" in Surah al-Israa (Chapter 17:1).

In Medina, the Jews also said their prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis. They did not like the fact that the Muslims had the same Qiblah as they did, and tried to use this fact to discredit Islam and Prophet Mohammed (saw). They said to the Muslims, "Mohammed claims to have a religion whose laws supersede all other previous laws, yet he does not have an independent Qiblah, and offers his prayers facing the Qiblah of the Jews."

The fools (pagans, hypocrites and Jews) among the people will say: What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah which they had? Say (O Mohammed): The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. Glorious Qur'an (2:142)

Indeed We see the turning of your [Prophet Mohammed (saw)] face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a Qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book (i.e. Jews and the Christians) most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do. Glorious Qur'an (2:144)

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn back upon their heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith (prayers) to be fruitless (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem); most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. Glorious Qur'an (2:143)

One day, while Prophet Mohammed (saw) and the Muslims were praying together, the command came from Allah to change the Qiblah from Baitul-Maqdis to Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah. After Prophet Mohammed (saw) had already completed two Rakaats of the noon prayer in congregation, the Angel Jibraeel (Gabriel) communicated to him the mandatory divine command of Allah (SWT).

Jibraeel (as) held the hand of Prophet Mohammed (saw) and turned him towards Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Masjid al-Haram in Makkah. Prophet Mohammed (saw) at once changed his direction in the middle of Salat. Imam Ali (as) followed this change immediately. The other Muslims were confused by this action and only a few followed the example of Imam Ali (as).

The mosque where this happened is known as "Masjid-e-Dhul Qiblatain or Masjid Al-Qiblatain" which means "Mosque with two Qiblah". This is one of the famous and oldest mosques in Islamic history, still exists in Medina today few kilometers from Masjid al-Nabawi. It had two Mihrabs, one Mihrab is facing "Baitul-Maqdis" and the other one is facing "Masjid al-Haram". It was one of the Prophet Mohammed's (saw) miracles that he turned exactly to face the Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) without the use of any scientific instrument or computation.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Annoying Forward

Qiblah (Qibla or Kiblah) is the direction of the Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah, Saudi Arabia, toward which Muslims from all over the world turn five times each day when performing the Salat (daily ritual prayer).

Baitul-Maqdis in Jerusalem was the first Qiblah for Muslims before the announcement of present Qiblah at Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah, Saudi Arabia.

When Allah (SWT) first ordered Prophet Mohammed (saw) and all Muslims to offer the daily Salat (Salah), they prayed facing Baitul-Maqdis in Jerusalem, Palestine. This was the practice in Makkah and continued in Medina until the seventeenth month after Hijrah (migration).

At the heart of Jerusalem is the Noble Sanctuary or Al-Haram al-Sharif, enclosing over 35 acres of fountains, gardens, buildings and domes. At its southernmost end is Al-Aqsa Mosque and at its center the celebrated Dome of the Rock. The entire area is regarded as Baitul-Maqdis or Al-Qudus and comprises nearly one sixth of the walled city of Jerusalem.

It is clear that Masjid al-Aqsa and Dome of the Rock (Qubbat as-Sakhra) are two separate buildings, and not synonymous with each other as believed by some Muslims. However, both these buildings are within the enclosure of Al-Haram al-Sharif referred to in Glorious Qur'an as "the Furthest Mosque" in Surah al-Israa (Chapter 17:1).

In Medina, the Jews also said their prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis. They did not like the fact that the Muslims had the same Qiblah as they did, and tried to use this fact to discredit Islam and Prophet Mohammed (saw). They said to the Muslims, "Mohammed claims to have a religion whose laws supersede all other previous laws, yet he does not have an independent Qiblah, and offers his prayers facing the Qiblah of the Jews."

The fools (pagans, hypocrites and Jews) among the people will say: What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah which they had? Say (O Mohammed): The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. Glorious Qur'an (2:142)

Indeed We see the turning of your [Prophet Mohammed (saw)] face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a Qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book (i.e. Jews and the Christians) most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do. Glorious Qur'an (2:144)

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn back upon their heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith (prayers) to be fruitless (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem); most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. Glorious Qur'an (2:143)

One day, while Prophet Mohammed (saw) and the Muslims were praying together, the command came from Allah to change the Qiblah from Baitul-Maqdis to Sacred Mosque of Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Makkah. After Prophet Mohammed (saw) had already completed two Rakaats of the noon prayer in congregation, the Angel Jibraeel (Gabriel) communicated to him the mandatory divine command of Allah (SWT).

Jibraeel (as) held the hand of Prophet Mohammed (saw) and turned him towards Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) in Masjid al-Haram in Makkah. Prophet Mohammed (saw) at once changed his direction in the middle of Salat. Imam Ali (as) followed this change immediately. The other Muslims were confused by this action and only a few followed the example of Imam Ali (as).

The mosque where this happened is known as "Masjid-e-Dhul Qiblatain or Masjid Al-Qiblatain" which means "Mosque with two Qiblah". This is one of the famous and oldest mosques in Islamic history, still exists in Medina today few kilometers from Masjid al-Nabawi. It had two Mihrabs, one Mihrab is facing "Baitul-Maqdis" and the other one is facing "Masjid al-Haram". It was one of the Prophet Mohammed's (saw) miracles that he turned exactly to face the Holy Kaabah (Kaaba) without the use of any scientific instrument or computation.

so you agree with me!! Thanks!!!

??????? ???? ???? ??????????

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
...you know damn well that Hamas' use of neighborhoods, schools, and mosques...

I know there is nothing but such civlian infestructure in Gaza.

Originally posted by: palehorse
...is despicable and quite clearly demonstrates their use of human shields. Their immediate proximity to those locales, often within the same walls, is all the "proof" I need.

Please show me evidence of humans near such civilian infrastructure being used by Hamas, so that I can make an intellectually honest condemnation of that.

I know that the footage shows Hamas operating in densely populated civilian locations, and it shows Israel destroying said launch sites. I also know that many civilians are being hit in the attacks.

2+2 = ...

I'm sorry that there aren't any children smiling and waving at the drones...my guessis that said civilians are trying to hide under beds and tables while Hamas draws fire on their backyards.

Right, you are guessing, that is the impression I got.

Originally posted by: palehorse
You can bury your head all you want, but it's actually my job to study, understand, and fight terrorism. These inhumane tactics being used by Hamas are nothing new, and not at all unexpected -- hell, they're trained to draw fire onto civilians! I'm just glad that Israel is finally ignoring the Hamas PR campaign, and misdirected sympathies such as yours, and they're finally taking the fight to the enemy and whooping their collective asses. For that, Israel should be commended, not condemned.

Can I get your name and exactly where you where so I can talk you your boss? No wonder this shit keeps getting worse with people guessing their way to conclusions such as you've shown here.

My job is not based on "guesses." We use facts gained through first-hand exposure to the subject.

Go ahead, keep your dishonest head in the sand and keep hugging terrorists. I couldn't care less...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: raildogg
Where is Hamas supposed to go? The population density there is high so I would imagine that they can't go that far from civilians. Israel has laser guided bombs, so maybe they can use them with more precision? The number of civilian casualties caused by Israel over the past few years is unacceptable.

There is no difference between the two sides except that one is strong and the other is weak and uses less conventional means. Israel uses a professional army while many people regard Hamas as a terrorist group. Israel is more effective at causing widespread damage and casualties compared with Hamas even though Hamas is often considered the terrorist organization. Hamas uses what it can to fight back against a modern military.

Please tell me how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past few years vs how many Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers are not even close. But for some reason, the Palestinians tend to be called terrorists for some reason. A person living in the Middle East might consider America and Israel to be terrorist nations. Maybe it just depends on where you live.

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that their people have bomb shelters, and places to go?
Seriously, I just can't understand people that use the "Pali's have more killed/injured" line. YES, of course they've got more injured and dead. This is because two reasons. Israeli civilians have where to run (bomb shelters are very common in Israel), or to northern Israel and because the the palestinian arsenal isn't very good.

So basically what you're saying is that for every one person killed in Israel, Israel should kill one Hamas terrorist? How is Hamas not a terrorist group? did they not shoot rockets and mortars for the last 8 years into Israeli cities? onto civilians? Or is that OK? What is Israel supposed to do? tell it's people to stay outside so the death toll can get high enough to retaliate? Seriously... Israel phoned people before bombing their homes, Israel tries it's best to not kill civilians. Even the worst estimates say that more than 50% dead were Hamas members. What more do you want?

Sometimes I just don't get it. Do you expect Israel to abandon all their high-tec weaponery, and go after every Hamas member one by one? Or maybe call them out for a fair fight?

The number of children killed is only this high because of the fact that Hamas uses its own people as a human shield, which people here seem to accept, and instead they condemn Israel for prefering their own people...

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: raildogg
To many, America is a terrorist nation because it has killed more than 600,000 Iraqis.

:Q LOL! Right about there is where your credibility flies right out the fucking window... wow.

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel uses a professional army while most of the free and civilized world regards Hamas as a terrorist group.

fixed.

 

[Cheeseplug]

How can you blame Palestinians for shooting rockets at Israel? Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since the Israelis pulled out in 2005. The flow of food, water, electricity, and lots of other supplies has been controlled or limited by Israel. The Israeli's have acted like animals during this current war, shooting at marked UN vehicles and shelling schools full of civilians. It is easy to say that Israel can justify the atrocities because rockets have been hitting them sporadically, but you need to look at why the rockets are being shot in the first place.

And how can the US prop up Israel to the tune of $2.5 billion a year when the 20% Arab minority in the actual country of Israel that are treated as second class citizens compared to the Jewish majority? How can it be a functioning democracy when not all of the citizens are treated equally?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so you agree with me!! Thanks!!!

??????? ???? ???? ??????????

Not at all, I was showing one instance of the mention of al-Quds and al-Bay al-Maqdis in the Quran.

My Hebrew is rusty, that says "May God bless you homosexual." What the hell does that mean?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so you agree with me!! Thanks!!!

??????? ???? ???? ??????????

Not at all, I was showing one instance of the mention of al-Quds and al-Bay al-Maqdis in the Quran.

My Hebrew is rusty, that says "May God bless you homosexual." What the hell does that mean?

My guess is that he just called you a i love you in Hebrew...

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so you agree with me!! Thanks!!!

??????? ???? ???? ??????????

Not at all, I was showing one instance of the mention of al-Quds and al-Bay al-Maqdis in the Quran.

My Hebrew is rusty, that says "May God bless you homosexual." What the hell does that mean?

My guess is that he just called you a i love you in Hebrew...

Yes, I gathered that much, I just wanted him to say it. JEDIyoda had to resort to a completely irrelevant ad hominem argument, given that I'm not gay and don't want his blessing? I remember when calling someone a i love you was a bannable offense here...

?? ?????? ?? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ,JEDIyoda

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
CRASH COURSE ON the ARAB ISRAELI CONFLICT
...

exactly hit the nail on the head.

Wow, that there are so many factual errors in that it is absurd. Do you guys really not even know the history of your own people well enough to know that is complete nonsense?

As for the Qu'ran quotes, I'm sure you haven't read enough Tanakh to even understand what those some of those verses are refering back to, let alone read the enough of the Qu'ran to understand those verses in context.

Anyway, for anyone who does care to know the real hisotry of the region, Wiki has a reasonably detailed synopsis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...of_the_Southern_Levant

Also, a bit of science:

Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry
As fighting continues in the Middle East, a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.


The results match historical accounts that Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer from the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.


Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed throughout Europe before returning to Israel in the past few generations; most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just one of three groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years. The study, reported here at a Human Origins and Disease conference, will appear in an upcoming issue of Nature Genetics.


Hammer praises the new study for "focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations." Oppenheim's team found, for example, that Jews have mixed more with other populations, which makes sense because they were more likely to leave the Levant.

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/scie.../00_10now/001030a.html

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: Cheeseplug
How can you blame Palestinians for shooting rockets at Israel? Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since the Israelis pulled out in 2005. The flow of food, water, electricity, and lots of other supplies has been controlled or limited by Israel. The Israeli's have acted like animals during this current war, shooting at marked UN vehicles and shelling schools full of civilians. It is easy to say that Israel can justify the atrocities because rockets have been hitting them sporadically, but you need to look at why the rockets are being shot in the first place.

And how can the US prop up Israel to the tune of $2.5 billion a year when the 20% Arab minority in the actual country of Israel that are treated as second class citizens compared to the Jewish majority? How can it be a functioning democracy when not all of the citizens are treated equally?

Err the palestinians have been firing rockets at Israel for the last 8 years. Not since 2005.
If the Palestinians are using UN cars as their own, I'd guess that that's the reason Israel shoots an UN cars. The same as why Israel had problems with Ambulances after Hamas used them to carry terrorists and arms into Israel.
If the rockets would have stopped Israel would have let the Palestinians live peacefully.

About treating Arab citizens as class b citizens, I have to agree about that. I've always stated that is one the biggest mistakes Israel has ever done.

 

[Lemon law]

Now, Israel tells Gaza residents to brace for a big escalation of reprisals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ml_israel_palestinians

How many more can Israel kill in an orgy of collective punishment before the world takes effective measures to force Israel to stop?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Now, Israel tells Gaza residents to brace for a big escalation of reprisals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ml_israel_palestinians

How many more can Israel kill in an orgy of collective punishment before the world takes effective measures to force Israel to stop?

I'm sure there are plenty of Hamas members who still need to be killed, and plenty of weapons caches that still need to be captured and/or destroyed.

Why does everyone seem to expect campaigns to only last days or weeks? War isn't a made-for-TV special.

If done correctly, Israel's occupation and subsequent house cleaning may last months or years... not days.

 

[jpeyton]

IDF Admits They Received No Gunfire From School/UN Shelter That They Shelled

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Now, Israel tells Gaza residents to brace for a big escalation of reprisals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ml_israel_palestinians

How many more can Israel kill in an orgy of collective punishment before the world takes effective measures to force Israel to stop?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: linkgoron
Err the palestinians have been firing rockets at Israel for the last 8 years.

And Israel has been colonzing the Palstinians homeland out from under them by military forced since it before it was established over 60 years ago. Please quit focusing on the rockets and start looking at the larger conlifct and who's goals are being achived though it.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: linkgoron
Err the palestinians have been firing rockets at Israel for the last 8 years.

And Israel has been colonzing the Palstinians homeland out from under them by military forced since it before it was established over 60 years ago. Please quit focusing on the rockets and start looking at the larger conlifct and who's goals are being achived though it.

Well You could say that there's no occupied land in gaza.
I feel like I'm repeating myself.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
IDF Admits They Received No Gunfire From School/UN Shelter That They Shelled

Ooooopsie-Daisy! /whistle

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: linkgoron
Err the palestinians have been firing rockets at Israel for the last 8 years.

And Israel has been colonzing the Palstinians homeland out from under them by military forced since it before it was established over 60 years ago. Please quit focusing on the rockets and start looking at the larger conlifct and who's goals are being achived though it.

Well You could say that there's no occupied land in gaza.
I feel like I'm repeating myself.

You are repeating yourself because you insist on remaining completely oblivious to the larger conflict, and who's goals are being achieved though it.

The people in Gaza and the people in the West Bank are all Palestinians, and while Gaza is a tiny strip of land sealed off by Israeli military, the vast majority of what remains of Palestine know as the West Bank is being colonized by Israeli civilian settlers as the millions of Palestinians there have pinned back into cantons by Israeli military occupation. Israel's colonization by force of military occupation in the West Bank has been going on for over 40 years now, and is stripping the Palestinians of their right to sovereignty in their own homeland, regardless of if they currently live in the West Bank or the Gaza strip.

Do you understand now how little the fact that Gaza isn't "occupied land" at the moment has to do with the larger confict now?