Is there any such thing as a religious hot deal?

[Jzero]

IMHO, the ethics of HD is that of capitalism, "Each to his own self interest". I don't judge others motives and actions following up on hot deals. I judge how this particular deal would effect me if I folllowed through on it, and I post my observations. I hope you would agree that HD has more honor then thieves. Outside ATHD and FW, every person I know would keep these deals to themselves, and Ebay them.

I guess I think you miss an important part which is that you are not supposed to post your observations. It doesn't matter if it's a religious deal, a mispriced computer part, or a box of strawberry condoms. If you don't like the deal, don't partake. If you think a deal is SO bad, post in Forum Issues or PM the AT Moderator.

The rules say:

No thread crapping. If the subject matter of a deal does not interest you, do not post negative comments about it, or about other members, in the thread.

It's very simple to follow.

If the rule should be amended, then so be it, but I am currently thinking based on the existing rules as they stand.

 

[Mill]

I wish someone would kill me. What in the fvck is wrong with a free Bibile? Some people....

 

[RossMAN]

Hehe ethics in the Hot Deals forum, there's a good one 😀

 

[crobusa]

Originally posted by: JzeroI guess I think you miss an important part which is that you are not supposed to post your observations. It doesn't matter if it's a religious deal, a mispriced computer part, or a box of strawberry condoms. If you don't like the deal, don't partake. If you think a deal is SO bad, post in Forum Issues or PM the AT Moderator.

Most people would agree that:
Warning of a scam or legitamite deals that have unexpected pitfalls.
Mentioning ship/handling charges
Other deals on that site
How much quanity available
Additional discounts
Experiences w/ Customer Service, and RMA quality, with followup links to feedback sites

are ALL observations and not only legitimate, but welcomed in the ATHD community. I would post any of the above regardless of whether I was going to buy or not. The related speculating about whether it will go through, and moaning and whining is part of the service. Can any of these apply to a religous HD?

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: crobusa

Originally posted by: JzeroI guess I think you miss an important part which is that you are not supposed to post your observations. It doesn't matter if it's a religious deal, a mispriced computer part, or a box of strawberry condoms. If you don't like the deal, don't partake. If you think a deal is SO bad, post in Forum Issues or PM the AT Moderator.

Most people would agree that:
Warning of a scam or legitamite deals that have unexpected pitfalls.
Mentioning ship/handling charges
Other deals on that site
How much quanity available
Additional discounts
Experiences w/ Customer Service, and RMA quality, with followup links to feedback sites

are ALL observations and not only legitimate, but welcomed in the ATHD community. I would post any of the above regardless of whether I was going to buy or not. The related speculating about whether it will go through, and moaning and whining is part of the service. Can any of these apply to a religous HD?

I don't see your point. If they can apply to a religious deal, than they should be posted. But if YOU don't think it's right to teach a child the 10 commandments, that is YOUR business, and it is NOT part of the above things you mentioned to wax philosophical on your religious affiliations. If you think it's a scam and that they aren't going to send the money, then post up. If you think it's wrong to teach religion to your kids, keep your trap shut in HD.
This example may be a special case, which is why I bring up the Bible threads.
Valsalva, my scapegoat although certainly not the only guilty party we have seen, is doing NONE of the above. Someone posts "free bible!" and he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

 

[yoda291]

Originally posted by: crobusa

Originally posted by: JzeroI guess I think you miss an important part which is that you are not supposed to post your observations. It doesn't matter if it's a religious deal, a mispriced computer part, or a box of strawberry condoms. If you don't like the deal, don't partake. If you think a deal is SO bad, post in Forum Issues or PM the AT Moderator.

Most people would agree that:
Warning of a scam or legitamite deals that have unexpected pitfalls.
Mentioning ship/handling charges
Other deals on that site
How much quanity available
Additional discounts
Experiences w/ Customer Service, and RMA quality, with followup links to feedback sites

are ALL observations and not only legitimate, but welcomed in the ATHD community. I would post any of the above regardless of whether I was going to buy or not. The related speculating about whether it will go through, and moaning and whining is part of the service. Can any of these apply to a religous HD?

This is funny if you think about how each situation applies.

1.) you must attend church for at least 3 hours witnessed and signed by the same person who got you 10 bux.
2.) 15 dollar shipping for 10 dollar bill
3.) get 7.50 for just 1 commandment.
4.) only 10 commandments available...supplies are limited.
5.) with recital of 10 commandments, receive limited edition 11th commandment for free.
6.) I tried praying to tech support, didn't work, wtf? I tried RMAing 10 dollars, they won't give me my commandments back. Feedback on resellerratings is nil!

 

[crobusa]

I don't see your point. If they can apply to a religious deal, than they should be posted. But if YOU don't think it's right to teach a child the 10 commandments, that is YOUR business, and it is NOT part of the above things you mentioned to wax philosophical on your religious affiliations.

At least one person has agreed that giving money to covert kids is moraly questionable. From what I saw there was no onewho followed up and filed for the $10. How far away posting that a deal is unethical is asking people to think of the consequences of their actions?

Valsalva, my scapegoat although certainly not the only guilty party we have seen, is doing NONE of the above. Someone posts "free bible!" and he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

Your qualm is with Valsalva then sir. I suggest you PM him and ask him why he feels people who follow through will become as disillusioned as he is. 😀 Your asking me to jusify a flamewar, and start another at the same time. 🙁

 

[3L33T32003]

Is there any such thing as a religious hot deal?

Of course! Give up religion...save a LOT of money, a LOT of time, and regain your free mind!

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Jzero

I don't see your point. If they can apply to a religious deal, than they should be posted. But if YOU don't think it's right to teach a child the 10 commandments, that is YOUR business, and it is NOT part of the above things you mentioned to wax philosophical on your religious affiliations. If you think it's a scam and that they aren't going to send the money, then post up. If you think it's wrong to teach religion to your kids, keep your trap shut in HD.
This example may be a special case, which is why I bring up the Bible threads.
Valsalva, my scapegoat although certainly not the only guilty party we have seen, is doing NONE of the above. Someone posts "free bible!" and he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

So you would not have a problem with a Hot Deals thread about teaching your kid to blow up unbelievers? With introducing kids to Satanism/Wicca/Paganism?
You would not be offended by a thread called 'For $10 we can free a kid from Christianity!'?

I'd love a Religious Hot Deals part specifically for the free <insert religious books of your choice>. Or for religious threads in general. Would clean up the rest of the forum nicely.

 

[FrontlineWarrior]

Deathbed repentance is a pretty hot deal. 😎

 

[Jzero]

At least one person has agreed that giving money to covert kids is moraly questionable. From what I saw there was no onewho followed up and filed for the $10. How far away posting that a deal is unethical is asking people to think of the consequences of their actions?

Simple: I don't see anyone doing it when Amazon screws the pooch and sells a $300 PDA for $15. It's clearly the wrong price, it's clearly unethical, everyone knows it, some people post that they aren't going to bother with it, but I've never seen a flame war start over it, and I've been doing this for some years now.
Do you actually have a stance on this issue? What was your purpose for starting this thread? Do you think the rule should be changed, do you think the enforcement needs to be better? For all I know, you think I'm arguing with you when we're actually on the same page.
Bear in mind that the target of this hot deal is families who wish to raise their kids with Christian values. It is a family's right to do so if they wish. For some reason its posting here seems to carry the unrealistic notion that some Ferenghi is going to start trolling the neighborhood teaching kids Bible verses so he can try and scam $10 checks from them. Be realistic. When I was a kid I had to memorize the 10 Commandments for Sunday School. If the Internet was around, back then, I'd have just scored $10 easy for something I was doing anyway. What the hell is wrong with that other than the fact that some people don't believe the commandments? You make your choice, let others make theirs.

Valsalva, my scapegoat although certainly not the only guilty party we have seen, is doing NONE of the above. Someone posts "free bible!" and he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

Your qualm is with Valsalva then sir. I suggest you PM him and ask him why he feels people who follow through will become as disillusioned as he is. 😀 Your asking me to jusify a flamewar, and start another at the same time. 🙁

You have grossly misread all of my posts. There is a reason I refer to Valsalva as me "Scapegoat," and this is because 90% of the religious deals I have seen get locked after he posts some his snide comments. I don't consider this post of yours a flame war. This is a valid issue that had been brought up in Forum Issues at least twice, and it continues to recur every so often. Something should be done.

Skyclad1uhm1:

So you would not have a problem with a Hot Deals thread about teaching your kid to blow up unbelievers? With introducing kids to Satanism/Wicca/Paganism?
You would not be offended by a thread called 'For $10 we can free a kid from Christianity!'?

I'd love a Religious Hot Deals part specifically for the free <insert religious books of your choice>. Or for religious threads in general. Would clean up the rest of the forum nicely.

Well, we obviously see which side of the break you fall on. Obviously a "hot deal" encouraging murder would not be acceptable. But come one? Free books about other religions? $10 if your kid is already learning about Islam and you can get him to memorize a few Surahs? Free is free. I don't get why anyone has a problem with it. This is not about Christianity (although it is herein brought on by Valsalva's irrational fear of the ideology) it is about learning to STFU when a religious hot deal appears that doesn't agree with your own religion. It is about learning that the Hot Deals forum is not the place to air your grievances against God, Allah, Wicca or Saturn.

Try not to get bogged down in playing my god/your god. This isn't about god, it's about thread crapping and bad manners.

It is about reading the rule I will now have posted THREE times in this thread:

No thread crapping. If the subject matter of a deal does not interest you, do not post negative comments about it, or about other members, in the thread.

Possibly the worst examples we have had of this have been in posts for free religious items, such as bibles, etc. If you want to discuss religion, or any other such non-computer topic, do it in our Off Topic forum. The discussions in that forum cover a wide range of topics, but needless flaming and rude, mean-spirited posts are not welcome there, either.

Read that rule. If you think it should be changed, post your viewpoint. If you think it should just be enforced, then post your viewpoint.
I have already stated that I think it should just be enforced. It seems to me that the religion crappers are a distinct minority whom can quickly be ferretted out.
OTOH, a flat-out ban on religious deals also ends the debate, but it must be enforced.
It's up to the moderators to choose which way they want to swing. Perhaps this thread will help them decide.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: RossMAN
AFAIK most religious Hot Deals threads are locked because people can't be civil.

I'll one-up you on that, and say
AFAIK know most religious Hot Deals threads are locked because ValsalvaYourHeartOut can't be civil.

In most religious HDs I've read, he throws the first stone, and he is never punished for it despite it being an EXPLICIT violation of the HD forum rules. It's one thing snigger and joke about the content of the thead, he does not do so, he almost always throws the thread into a flame war.

I've posted in FI before that the mods should take a stand one way or the other - ban religious deals, or take a hard line and ban the crappers. I really don't care which way, although I think the former is a sad reflection on the state of this community.

i don't think so called "crappers" should be banned because in fact they might find the thread to be crap. Something like paying someone $10 to learn the commandments is not only crap to me but offensive as well. but if i say so i risk being banned what kind of crap is that?

that's your opinion and your free to express it. BUT

what if?? What if Compusa pissed off a whole group of people and these people, ANY time Compusa was mentioned in ANY thread would come in and incite such hard feelings between members that eventually the mods would lock each and every compusa thread, how would that make you feel??

how is that any different then what happens in religion threads, not only in hot deals but all religion threads on AT?

 

[LadyJessica]

***Hotter than the sun's corona!***

Free Bhagavad Gitas for anybody who gives me a pm with his/her name, address, and social security number.

 

[xirtam]

Is there any such thing as a religious hot deal?

Hell, yeah.

 

[Ness]

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

Valsalva was in clear violation of the current rules. There was no "riding the line", it was way over the edge. Enough said there.


Someone mentioned that anywhere you go on the internet can possibly offend you. That may be true, but that's why there are rules to begin with. AT has given people the chance to act responsible, mature and be able openly debate subjects in a mature manner. Cracking jokes about people's beliefs and flaming them because they don't have the same views as you is far from mature and responsible.


While AT is privately owned and should be allowed to place whatever restrictions on what can and can't be posted, why should be ban relgious talk? The only reason to ban religious talk is to prevent people like valsalva from starting flame wars. Clearly, there is no justification in enforcing a rule simply because some people can't show some restraint. I understand that while I am religious, I don't have the right to press my beliefs on other people. They are free to make their own choice, and it's not my place to tell them what choice to make. It wouldn't be fair to ban religious hot deals, unless relgion talk as a whole was banned for the sake of preventing offensive posts. It would be like telling someone that they can't park on the street because their car is green and you don't want anyone to make fun of it.


If you don't like the subject matter, then keep out, regardless what the subject matter is. Jokersmoker wasn't preaching in the post. If someone is offended by rewarding children for learning about their religion, then keep it to yourself. Let people make their own assesment. If you have a serious problem with it, maybe you should email the makers of the site and complain to them, because no matter if it's posted or not, the page is still there.

 

[loup garou]

I can't believe Valsalva is still a member here. He should have been banned long ago. He doesn't just crap all over religious HD threads, you know. He's also a known crapper in HD speaker threads (and has had vacations for such posts). Just cut the asshole loose already.

 

[crobusa]

BTW, thank you to the mods for unlocking this.

Do you actually have a stance on this issue? What was your purpose for starting this thread? Do you think the rule should be changed, do you think the enforcement needs to be better? For all I know, you think I'm arguing with you when we're actually on the same page.

As stated in the letter above, I feel that there should be either a organization system that hides certain deals, or an outright ban.

Bear in mind that the target of this hot deal is families who wish to raise their kids with Christian values. It is a family's right to do so if they wish

That family has every right choose a religion that best suits their needs. Will a normal family really want 20 bibles for free? Will someone spend 20 minutes getting a priest to sign a paper, fax it for $1, just to eventually get $10 for what he was going to do anyways?

As I mentioned in the letter, by keeping these types of deals open, we allow every members of every different religion to post ?Get a $1 from paypal for certifying you?re an X.? That?s no longer a hot deal. That?s an barley hidden advertisement. That ?the target of this hot deal is families who wish to raise their kids with Christian values? is an absolute farce. It?s designed to recruit new people to the flock. Or do you actually believe there is a homeless Christian family somewhere who is so desperate for money that they?d spend 2 hours following through? Even Christian dogma teaches materialism is not a good thing. There are so many stories about selling your soul for money, I can?t believe a practicing family would consider this.

When I was a kid I had to memorize the 10 Commandments for Sunday School.

Don?t take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul.

he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

You have grossly misread all of my posts.

Have I? You asked me to place a value/cost on his replies in the religious hot deals. I would respond that the ?deals? are just meaningless advertisements. Valsalva?s posts are same bad jokes heckling you see in a condom thread. It is my opinion that the problems with this type of heckling completely offset the little value of the religious hot deal posts. Thus I feel they should be banned. I should remind you he wasn?t the one of the many who suggested the bibles should be used for kindling, IIRC.

it is about learning to STFU when a religious hot deal appears that doesn't agree with your own religion.

Answer me this, if someone like Valsalva posted a $1 for every person certifying they?re atheist. Would you look the other way or drop on in remind him that you thought he was a thread crapper, Just like SO MANY in his Satanic bible deal. The later is nothing more than hypocrisy.

 

[yoda291]

Originally posted by: crobusa
BTW, thank you to the mods for unlocking this.

Do you actually have a stance on this issue? What was your purpose for starting this thread? Do you think the rule should be changed, do you think the enforcement needs to be better? For all I know, you think I'm arguing with you when we're actually on the same page.

As stated in the letter above, I feel that there should be either a organization system that hides certain deals, or an outright ban.

Bear in mind that the target of this hot deal is families who wish to raise their kids with Christian values. It is a family's right to do so if they wish

That family has every right choose a religion that best suits their needs. Will a normal family really want 20 bibles for free? Will someone spend 20 minutes getting a priest to sign a paper, fax it for $1, just to eventually get $10 for what he was going to do anyways?

As I mentioned in the letter, by keeping these types of deals open, we allow every members of every different religion to post ?Get a $1 from paypal for certifying you?re an X.? That?s no longer a hot deal. That?s an barley hidden advertisement. That ?the target of this hot deal is families who wish to raise their kids with Christian values? is an absolute farce. It?s designed to recruit new people to the flock. Or do you actually believe there is a homeless Christian family somewhere who is so desperate for money that they?d spend 2 hours following through? Even Christian dogma teaches materialism is not a good thing. There are so many stories about selling your soul for money, I can?t believe a practicing family would consider this.

When I was a kid I had to memorize the 10 Commandments for Sunday School.

Don?t take any wooden nickels when you sell your soul.

he grumbles about those damn Christians always trying to convert him.
How is that in any way helpful to the community?

You have grossly misread all of my posts.

Have I? You asked me to place a value/cost on his replies in the religious hot deals. I would respond that the ?deals? are just meaningless advertisements. Valsalva?s posts are same bad jokes heckling you see in a condom thread. It is my opinion that the problems with this type of heckling completely offset the little value of the religious hot deal posts. Thus I feel they should be banned. I should remind you he wasn?t the one of the many who suggested the bibles should be used for kindling, IIRC.

it is about learning to STFU when a religious hot deal appears that doesn't agree with your own religion.

Answer me this, if someone like Valsalva posted a $1 for every person certifying they?re atheist. Would you look the other way or drop on in remind him that you thought he was a thread crapper, Just like SO MANY in his Satanic bible deal. The later is nothing more than hypocrisy.

If someone offered 1 dollar to get certified as an atheist, it wouldn't be worth the time. Stamps are like 34 cents now. I'd also wonder where you get certified as an atheist? Does atheism have priests now? Honestly, the whole of the problem is that he was posting against the rules in the wrong forum. If he wanted a religious flame war, he shoulda just followed the rules and sparked one on OT. Lord knows he wouldn't be the first. I'm sure Riprorin and him would butt heads too.

 

[BatmanNate]

I don't see why it should be treated any differently that any other kinf of hot deal. If it's a good price for something and is legal, let it be. If you don't like it, or if it "offends you" then don't buy and leave the thread, or create a thread in FI if it is honestly that offensive. Banning that type of deal on the grounds that it is offensive is absurd, I mean what if the religious folks take offense to a birth control hot deal, should we ban that too? No need to crap if you don't like it, just pass it on by. No need to rain on the parade of the people that do enjoy that type of thing.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
I don't see why it should be treated any differently that any other kinf of hot deal. If it's a good price for something and is legal, let it be. If you don't like it, or if it "offends you" then don't buy and leave the thread, or create a thread in FI if it is honestly that offensive. Banning that type of deal on the grounds that it is offensive is absurd, I mean what if the religious folks take offense to a birth control hot deal, should we ban that too? No need to crap if you don't like it, just pass it on by. No need to rain on the parade of the people that do enjoy that type of thing.

 

[crobusa]

Condom and liquor HDs are simular to religious HDs in that they always contain irrelvent posts that techicaly break the rules. Only in religious hds, the posts are taken seriously, and retorts and followups are made. This keeps the threads at the top of the forum, where more valuable deals should be.

I don't believe everyone who responds to a suggestive deal should get a vacation. I also believe that one or two messages about the downsides of deals are acceptable, so long as their on topic. i.e. health effects in a free abortion thread. Where the limits and the vacations start comming says alot about our society.

Would a filtering system, like hide all of a certain type of deal, or hide all posts by a person help the forum be a better place?

 

[Jzero]

As stated in the letter above, I feel that there should be either a organization system that hides certain deals, or an outright ban.

Hiding certain deals automagically is probably not feasible. We have to rely on the mods to consistently ban them, but if that's the way to go, I've said let's do it.

As I mentioned in the letter, by keeping these types of deals open, we allow every members of every different religion to post ?Get a $1 from paypal for certifying you?re an X.? That?s no longer a hot deal. That?s an barley hidden advertisement.

A lot of deals are a barely hidden advertisement. So what if it's an advertisement for Muhammad or and advertisement for Cisco?
As for some member offering $1 to certify people as one religion or another, why don't we destroy that bridge if it ever happens. I haven't seen a single deal offering something like that, and besides self-advertising is already prohibited in HD. Don't let your religious affiliation or lack thereof lead you astray from the true crux:
There is a clearly defined policy regarding this and it is not being enforced.

Valsalva?s posts are same bad jokes heckling you see in a condom thread. It is my opinion that the problems with this type of heckling completely offset the little value of the religious hot deal posts. Thus I feel they should be banned.

Amusing. The same forum rules also explicitly warn against people destroying a legitimate thread for something like free condoms with their snide remarks. Shall we ban sexually-related deals as well? I'm instead, in support of banning the small-minded slackjaws who can't handle the responsibility of a keyboard instead.

Answer me this, if someone like Valsalva posted a $1 for every person certifying they?re atheist. Would you look the other way or drop on in remind him that you thought he was a thread crapper, Just like SO MANY in his Satanic bible deal. The later is nothing more than hypocrisy.

A) he won't.
B) he couldn't for reasons defined above.
C) You're damned right I'd look the other way - Read my words I FOLLOW THE RULES AND DO NOT THREAD CRAP.
I don't understand why this is not a simple concept.

 

[crobusa]

(Deleted as it was off-topic)

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: crobusa
Condom and liquor HDs are simular to religious HDs in that they always contain irrelvent posts that techicaly break the rules. Only in religious hds, the posts are taken seriously, and retorts and followups are made. This keeps the threads at the top of the forum, where more valuable deals should be.

I don't believe everyone who responds to a suggestive deal should get a vacation. I also believe that one or two messages about the downsides of deals are acceptable, so long as their on topic. i.e. health effects in a free abortion thread. Where the limits and the vacations start comming says alot about our society.

Would a filtering system, like hide all of a certain type of deal, or hide all posts by a person help the forum be a better place?

i don't quite understand you. I think overall you agree with JZero, but you just seem to want to ban religion threads. If so, why did you post this thread?? are you going to be openminded on the issue or not??

If i had a deal on religious books, (not bibles but books) or religious videos, or Christian music and i posted it and i got the same types of responses that we currently get to any religious hot deals, what would be ur position then??

You keep referring to ONE particular thread but should that ONE particular thread (a wierd one theologically btw) be the standard for all religious HD threads? or should we talk about religious HD threads in general. What is wrong with a HD thread that offers free bibles. HOW can you object to that?

The only objection is that it pisses of certain people. SOO WHAT??

 

[Red Dawn]

All Religious HD's are just blatant attempts to recruit, nothing more. I think that's why so many people have problems with them.