Question Is "the writing on the wall" - the end for enthusiasts? [LTT]

[VirtualLarry]

Discussing if Apple's M1 silicon is the future of computing, and discrete CPU and GPU days are numbered.

Maybe this should go in the Apple M series silicon thread, sorry.

 

[aigomorla]

^^^ I'm just thinking fire hazard.

Yeah that too... lol... as i said... my younger idiot days.... *sigh* *hides head inside a trashbag*
And yes it was a long time ago, you can see that awesome AGP slot and pimping PATA cables.... i bet 1/4 of the posters here never seen nor remember PATA or AGP.

 

[bigboxes]

That's the keyword. Something that Applers refuse to acknowledge. PC users have more freedom. We can switch between AMD/Intel/Nvidia as our heart desires.

I've had both AMD and Intel. Both ATI and nVidia. I go with works best for my usage vs price.

LTT's latest video is just another example of the decline of quality of the press. Controversial topics bring more attention even when in most of the cases they have to heavily twist the facts to do so.

Guess who I watch a lot less of these days? LTT. I can't be alone. I feel it's almost unwatchable.

 

[bigboxes]

Oh ive done that in my younger days... I thought "I R SMARTER DEN JOO".

I thought this was a good idea...
View attachment 64056

no one cared to tell me noise isolation also = thermal isolation especially when its shaped like that, as the air flow gets terribly jumbled....
And im a idiot for not realizing that.... you need air to transmit sound... and u block all air, yes you kill the sound, but also the cold air needed to keep things cool.... lol

There is a reason why we don't see cases with sound dampening material like that build in, and its usually flat dynomat...

Keep 'em coming, Aigo. My Fractal Design has sound dampening material built in and it's similar to dynomat.

 

[Tech Junky]

i bet 1/4 of the posters here never seen nor remember PATA or AGP.

That's probably an accurate assessment.

I know back in the 90's with a PII 266mhz MMX based system with funky colored slots. Back when some systems didn't bother putting fans everywhere and the sound of the HDD was a heartbeat of the system with a rhythm. Those old configurations were somewhat of a Dyson air purifier pulling air through them.

Kind of funny looking at how cases haven't really changed all that much in 30+ years. Sure there's a powder coating on the sheet steel and thumb screws to move things around but, for the most part they're still the same. My current Meshify 2 case though takes over that whole column for drives though bit, it's also adaptable in different positions if you wanted to put in a reservoir for LC. Instead of having to match up the little tabs and slide the side panels it just quick releases with a little tension. Gone are the days of front panels for most systems because everything needed can be done with USB.

I still see CPU coolers like that but, they're mostly for low profile setups and 10X better than back then. Going back to then though with what we have now for acoustics would have made a huge difference and air filters for the case....

Back then you needed Teflon gloves or risk getting your hands chewed up by the punched steel around every nook and cranny. Now you can build from scratch with less worry of donating a pint to the build.

 

[Ranulf]

People can blame Apple all they like, but they didn't force Samsung et al to follow. They followed for the same reason Apple went down that path, because the battery only needs to be replaced once every few years at most so making it a 10 second process at the cost of reduced design flexibility isn't worth it.

Except that it didn't introduce design flexibility, android phone makers ended up just building variations of iphones and ignore the business market except for Blackberry who is now sadly dead. Why would I bother with android phones unless they're cheap? They often don't get updated software support for more than 2 years and the quality is usually worse than Apple who despite all their problems support their phones a lot longer.

My kingdom for a slider keyboard phone again with removable battery. Samsung used to make fun of iphone users being tethered to a wall or usb battery pack. Only upside of the sealed phone "revolution" is usb battery pack development was created. Yet now we have to carry around the ultra thin phones and a battery pack for them.

 

[Tech Junky]

we have to carry around the ultra thin phones and a battery pack for them.

You don't have to do any of that.

If you get a higher spec charging phone outside of the SS/AAPLE arena you can get up to 150W and recharge to 100% in a few minutes. Going from 10% to 80% is the sweet spot and gets full power from the USB charger and then tapers off to 100%. My phone will do 30W using the OEM solution which is double your average speed. Going up two generations though would yield 65W charging. So, you really don't need a battery pack unless you're not near an outlet any time of the day for ~30 minutes to refuel things.

I do have a battery pack though for more of a UPS situation to quick draw current from while trickle charging it post refuel. I don't even bother with the OEM charger and let it charge at 18W w/ USB-PD. Sure, it takes longer but, it's easier on the battery. Having the option though to double the speed while on the go is nice though.

Oppo / Realme are two options that have 150W options though. OnePlus is adding it to the lineup as well.

Sometimes there's some local regulations though that impede the power being used for charging when it comes to phones. IIRC there was a recent release that could charge at 85W but, in the US was hobbled to 65W.

 

[Doug S]

The whole "DIY PC is dead" mantra has been said so many times I simply just tune it out.

Where did I say it was "dead"? All I said is that market will continue to shrink, as every year fewer people will be interested in building their own PC, and every year fewer people will consider upgradeability a requirement for a PC they buy.

That's been a trend for a while now, and wishing it weren't so or saying "I'll never buy one" won't change it anymore than the people who said they'd never buy a car without a manual transmission have been able to stand in the way of that trend. I know several such people who didn't let the lack of a manual transmission option stop them from buying the SUV they wanted.

 

[sandorski]

Yeah that too... lol... as i said... my younger idiot days.... *sigh* *hides head inside a trashbag*
And yes it was a long time ago, you can see that awesome AGP slot and pimping PATA cables.... i bet 1/4 of the posters here never seen nor remember PATA or AGP.

Or ISA and VESA.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Or ISA and VESA.

I think my Pentium 133 MHz had a VL bus slot. Sadly, I had the non-MMX version. Had to wait years for some MMX action with Pentium II 266 MHz.

 

[sandorski]

I think my Pentium 133 MHz had a VL bus slot. Sadly, I had the non-MMX version. Had to wait years for some MMX action with Pentium II 266 MHz.

VL, VLB, and VESA are the same. VLB= VESA Local Bus

I remembered VESA, but had to google VLB. As I recall, I referred to it as a "VESA Slot", rather than a "Local Bus".

 

[igor_kavinski]

VL, VLB, and VESA are the same. VLB= VESA Local Bus

It was long and dark brown and 32-bits. Don't remember if I ever used it. Smaller white PCI slots were so much better.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

True story: a guy in my university class (Bachelors of Computer Science) declared that his CDROM drive damaged his computer. We asked him how. He said that he took out the PATA/power cables to connect a hard drive to his PC to transfer data. When he connected the Molex connector back to the CDROM drive, there was a spark and some burning smell and his PC died. So we asked him, was the computer on? He said yes

I guess it wasn't hot swappable...?

Thats also what we buy. Reliability of prebuilt, OEM computers.

OEM prebuilts are no more or less reliable then anything else in my experience.

I thought this was a good idea...

At least nothing caught fire. One PSU I fried by being stupid actually caught fire. The smell is pretty horrible...

 

[coercitiv]

Build a fixed config PC for the masses, then address the niche market of people who want to DIY or possibly upgrade later in life separately.

This thread started from the premise of the video, which is that "the niche market of people who want to DIY" will get absorbed into fully integrated solutions similar to the Mac Studio. We're not discussing the viability of the $500 NUC or $700 Mac mini for "the people", the topic is revolving around enthusiasts who build higher performance PCs for work & play.

This is the same reason almost all phones no longer have removable batteries.

Fixed batteries didn't fundamentally change the phone in terms of modularity, since the battery was THE LAST component to get "glued" to the system.

Why design PCs to be upgradeable when most people don't upgrade?

The fact that the PC is built to adhere to a set of standards and maintains a high degree of modularity is obviously increasing the cost and waste of the platform. We know that, and there's no denying that many users buy the "modular" unit and throw it in the garbage a decade later with minimal, if any upgrades / repairs / customization in general. But here's the catch, these standards ensure a certain degree of competition for each part in the system, and this forces vendors to keep pricing in check.

We've had very small OEM desktop units for many years now, yet they never seem to get significantly cheaper than the DIY mITX builds. Even on the PC side of things, the higher level of integration was seen as an opportunity to increase margins. I almost bought an AIO for some relatives of mine, until I checked for pictures of internal layout: a disaster in terms of build quality when compared with laptops from the same brand. They see the opportunity to offer you convenience (e.g. a smaller footprint) and decide to charge you more for cheaper hardware.

Standards, modularity, repairability are potentially wasteful requirements that ironically limit waste instead, because they indirectly give the consumer more options even before making a purchase.

 

[DeathReborn]

Yeah that too... lol... as i said... my younger idiot days.... *sigh* *hides head inside a trashbag*
And yes it was a long time ago, you can see that awesome AGP slot and pimping PATA cables.... i bet 1/4 of the posters here never seen nor remember PATA or AGP.

Most probably don't remember buying a 80MB HDD and being amazed by the capacity. In the case of the section, actually plugging in Cache for the CPU as a separate DIP chip. Getting into PC's in the late 80's I was fortunate/unfortunate to witness many a hair brained PC technology/build.

The LTT video in the OP is one of those that earned a thumbs down from me.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Standards, modularity, repairability are potentially wasteful requirements that ironically limit waste instead, because they indirectly give the consumer more options even before making a purchase.

It tends to keep junk off the market. Take a look at some of the crap they still schlep in unupgradable AiOs or cheap laptops. People who have their choice of components will not select such garbage for their system.

 

[Hotrod2go]

I use to think the DIY market for PCs was going to fade away over a decade ago & a bit earlier with the rise of portability within one's digital life, thanks to apple when the first iphone came out back in 07. Laptops had their place but they were still clumsy to use on stuff like public transport, walking down the street, etc..
When portability came a big thing, whole worlds of virtual exploration opened up 24/7. No more of this doing it all on a desktop!
But boy o boy was I wrong! the explosion of the DIY market since has 10 folded.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I guess it wasn't hot swappable...?

Even now I wouldn't try that. It's consumer hardware, not a server. And if the case is open and there are plenty of ways available to short circuit the hardware, turn the power off! Seems common sense to me.

 

[igor_kavinski]

When portability came a big thing, whole worlds of virtual exploration opened up 24/7.

And the phenomenon of walking phone zombies, oblivious to everything around them.

 

[Hotrod2go]

And the phenomenon of walking phone zombies, oblivious to everything around them.

Very true. But I also think the DIY market appeals to the "tinkerer" in humans. The whole of human history has many stories of folks mucking around with stuff like material components in order to make something they can be proud off.

 

[VirtualLarry]

It tends to keep junk off the market. Take a look at some of the crap they still schlep in unupgradable AiOs or cheap laptops. People who have their choice of components will not select such garbage for their system.

Ghost of Brazos... shudder.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Even now I wouldn't try that. It's consumer hardware, not a server. And if the case is open and there are plenty of ways available to short circuit the hardware, turn the power off! Seems common sense to me.

Sorry. Was intended a a double entendre. It was not Hot-swappable (as in built for it) and not hot swappable (i.e. you couldn't change it with power on).

I hope that clears up the joke...

 

[Glo.]

You know what guys?

This discussion reminds me the good old days of Apple forums, when Mac users discussed the possibilitiy of Apple removing the optical drives from their laptops, making computers less repairable and less internally expandable, and less user upgradeable.

Majority of the die hard professionals were against any of that.

And guess what happened? Apple did exactly that: made their computers less repairable, less internally expandable, less user upgradeable, removed optical drives from their laptops.

I get the same feeling with current discussion, that no matter how hard we resist the change - it will happen anyway.

If OEMs/AIB partners will see that in "less is more" and the market naturally gravitates towards SOCs, instead of separate CPUs and dGPUs - the more likely they will, along AMD, Intel, Nvidia, ARM vendors focus on making those solutions as good as possible for end users.

And Apple will once again be the great visionary company as they are...

 

[poke01]

You know what guys?

This discussion reminds me the good old days of Apple forums, when Mac users discussed the possibilitiy of Apple removing the optical drives from their laptops, making computers less repairable and less internally expandable, and less user upgradeable.

Majority of the die hard professionals were against any of that.

And guess what happened? Apple did exactly that: made their computers less repairable, less internally expandable, less user upgradeable, removed optical drives from their laptops.

I get the same feeling with current discussion, that no matter how hard we resist the change - it will happen anyway.

If OEMs/AIB partners will see that in "less is more" and the market naturally gravitates towards SOCs, instead of separate CPUs and dGPUs - the more likely they will, along AMD, Intel, Nvidia, ARM vendors focus on making those solutions as good as possible for end users.

And Apple will once again be the great visionary company as they are...

Apple has a VERY strong presence in the mobile/laptop world. Android and PC OEMs follow Apple. ARM laptops will come but DIY PC will always exist.

 

[Glo.]

Apple has a VERY strong presence in the mobile/laptop world. Android and PC OEMs follow Apple. ARM laptops will come but DIY PC will always exist.

Then why does it fall in sales? Market for DIY shrinks with each generation.

Yes, DIY will exist, no question about it. But the point is: it may not exist anymore on mainstream market.

DIY will become a nieche, with how things are going, and if there is no volume in DIY, how will companies counter that?

By increasing prices, or making DIY a premium option, only.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

DIY will become a nieche, with how things are going, and if there is no volume in DIY, how will companies counter that?

DIY has always been niche. A highly profitable niche. Further it generates goodwill and word-of-mouth among entusiasts. Guess who many people turn to for product recommendations?